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Montreal Canadiens Jacques Martin Cheats the Habs with “The System”

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Old
01-17-2011, 02:22 PM
  #51
No Team Needed
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
If coaching, defense, or two-way play were a factor in the playoffs, I would expect the Habs to have generated chances for when they needed a goal, limited chances against when they had to clamp down, and generally not just get dominated wire to wire in the majority of the games.

None of this happened.


I see, the world was watching games in an alternate universe. You saw the games in the real world. It's fine. I understand.

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01-17-2011, 02:48 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post


I see, the world was watching games in an alternate universe. You saw the games in the real world. It's fine. I understand.
I'm not as drastic as MathMan when judging last PO's. I do feel our coaching staff deserves some merit.
That being said, if Halak played the same way vs the Caps than vs the Flyers, we'd probably have been eliminated in the 1st round in 5games as well. You can't really deny that.

How would you judge the effectiveness of our system vs the Flyers??..It's not a coincidence that our elimination came at the same time as Halak playing rather ordinary.
If Martin's coaching was indeed that good, then surely, he would have found a way not to make Michael freaking Leighton shut us out three times.

His system has come into place a lot more this year. It was rather messy last season.

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01-17-2011, 02:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Maybe I'm old (I am old) but isn't that the way it should be?

Maybe we should have a psychoanalyst on the bench for these players to tell them about their feelings of sometimes failing when they are a multi-millionaire. "I might get yelled at or not play if I lose it for the team. It's so hard!"
All I'm saying is because the coach is very defence-frist, there will be graver consequences if they make a mistake. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just think that this team might play it safe a little more than other teams because of it. You do want guys to play it safe when you're up. You just have to expect a little less offense and creativity when you're doing so and in turn, if a team is playing all-out offence, you'll end up cooped up in your zone more often than not.

That's just how the game works.

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01-17-2011, 03:52 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
I see, the world was watching games in an alternate universe. You saw the games in the real world. It's fine. I understand.
The same alternate universe that had the Flyers beating the Habs with physicality in 2007-2008. The alternate universe hockey analysts inhabit, where the plausible-sounding narrative is preferable to real analysis.

For an examination of the real world, go back on espn.com and look over at the shot charts for the games the Canadiens won. Tell me if they look like the Caps had limited scoring chances or were forced to shoot from the outside. Tell me if it looks like the Habs were generating a lot of offense at all.

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01-17-2011, 05:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The same alternate universe that had the Flyers beating the Habs with physicality in 2007-2008. The alternate universe hockey analysts inhabit, where the plausible-sounding narrative is preferable to real analysis.

For an examination of the real world, go back on espn.com and look over at the shot charts for the games the Canadiens won. Tell me if they look like the Caps had limited scoring chances or were forced to shoot from the outside. Tell me if it looks like the Habs were generating a lot of offense at all.
The Caps punched themselves out in our end. JM had no choice but to collapse and it worked... somehow. JM is doing a great job with what he has imo. Until Gauthier is able to make this a more well-rounded team with toughness AND skill, we won't see another run like that (and we need Markov back).

If you want to postulate that JM cannot take the team to the other level even WITH toughness, that's another story. I thought not hiring Laviolette when we had the chance was a major blunder. One of many in recent years. We've had great finds in PK, etc., but major blunders as well in Getzlaf (and letting LOU LAMORIELLO of all people outbid us for Parise) and non-hires going all the way back to when we could have stolen Iggy for Theo after Theo had a good half season and somehow was awarded the Hart Trophy.

This might be overkill, but you need the right genetalia to win a Cup.

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Old
01-17-2011, 06:02 PM
  #56
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I can't speak for everybody, but back when I played hockey and I was losing... I was a very very competitive guy who hated to lose, and I often played my best hockey when we we're trailing because I felt compelled to make a difference out there and give it absolutely everything I had left.

Has anyone ever taken into consideration that it's human nature to raise your effort level to it's maximum when the game is on the line, and often you play scared or tentative when you have a tight lead towards the end of the game? I don't think coaching has anything to do with it as much as simple human psychology. There is always exceptions and this is not the case in 100% of the instances, but I'd say it applies to the vast majority of situations in sports.

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01-17-2011, 06:47 PM
  #57
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[QUOTE=MathMan;30266614]Last year's team was a disaster. Halak dragged JM along to the third round of the playoffs, but the team was typically completely outclassed in front of him. Unless JM's game plan was to let the goalie get bombed and pray he stands on his head, there's no way he can be credited with outcoaching anyone in the playoffs.

I have no issues with JM's management now and am, in fact, very impressed in the complete turnaround in the team's overall game. They have become a pretty strong possession club, which outplays and outchances their opponents more often than not, which was not the case last year. It's a shame Montreal fluked their way to the ECF because they don't get the credit they deserve for the gigantic turnaround of this year, and JM must get credit for that. At the same time, he shouldn't get credit where none is due.[/QUOT

I don't want to deny credit to Halk for being a hot goaltender but hot goaltenders often lose in the very first round if their team doesn't play well and have a a strategy drilled into them. You make it sound as though the Habs won 4 games each against the Caps and Pens by a single goal. Not so. If you look back, they won a few games by bigger margins. And as I recall the Magic Slovak didn't have great games every time out. He was pulled in some and he didn't start in others after not playing well. Against the Flyers he was ordinary. Besides the coaching staff, credit has to be given to those Habs who sacrificed their bodies to block shots. Did they do that spontaneously or were they encouraged to do that by JM? Of course, the unspoken factor in the two upset rounds was the shaky defense and coaltending on the part of Fleury and his Pen teammates and similar poor play by Theodore/Varlamov and their teammates.

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Old
01-17-2011, 09:40 PM
  #58
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i HATE JOCK MARTIN

He is responsible for the play on the ice. If he can't motivate his troops in the 3rd periods to hold a lead he sucks and so does his SYSTEM.

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I don't want to deny credit to Halk for being a hot goaltender but hot goaltenders often lose in the very first round if their team doesn't play well and have a a strategy drilled into them.
Goalies as hot as Halak was rarely lose any game period.

If the Habs had a strategy drilled into them for those three games, I question its success. The Capitals fired at will from prime positions, and Halak managed to stop anything. There's some element of good fortune involved there, but as a defensive effort, it was abysmal. At least in the sense that a defensive effort is one that limits chances against. The problem was not so much that the Habs' system resulted in bad defense, the problem was that it led to them doing little else. The net result is the same, worse actually: lots of quality chances against, but even fewer quality chances for.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You make it sound as though the Habs won 4 games each against the Caps and Pens by a single goal. Not so.
I'm not impressed by final goal differentials; I am more interested in scoring chances. Goaltending is too volatile to draw conclusions from such rare events as goals -- even though they ultimately win games, of course. Plus people too often deduce process from result (goals) rather than look at the process itself -- it is not necessarily the case that low goals against means good defense, yet that's what people always assume.

Most nights, the kind of offensive pressure the Caps put on Halak results in 4-5 goals. That they didn't is solely due to the hot streak of Halak. If the Habs had actually had a good system, he wouldn't have needed a nigh-historic run of goaltending to get them three straight wins.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Besides the coaching staff, credit has to be given to those Habs who sacrificed their bodies to block shots.
There can be little greater indictment of the weakness of the Habs' system in the playoffs than this: the Habs sacrificed their bodies and blocked a truly ridiculous number of shots, and still Halak was bombarded for 40 goals and a ghastly number of prime-grade scoring chances per game.

It really shows how terrible the Habs were, systemically: the Caps were constantly in the Habs' zone, shooting.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Of course, the unspoken factor in the two upset rounds was the shaky defense and coaltending on the part of Fleury and his Pen teammates and similar poor play by Theodore/Varlamov and their teammates.
That's the other end of things. Basically, the Habs fluked into the ECF. Nobody likes hearing that, but it's the truth.

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:35 PM
  #60
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agree or disagree with Martin's system, it's hard not to fault or at least question his ability to "rally the troops"...

in team sports, one of the most important skills for a head coach, imo, is the ability to manage his team's psyche.

i don't have time to dig it all up, but I'd love to see how often the habs:
- give up a 2+ goal lead
- come back from being down

regardless of the style of game a coach has his team play, the team needs to have the ability to both rally, and to protect leads.

it may just be perception, but it seems to me that the habs rarely are able to come back from being down (i think i recall hearing a stat recently that we were the only NHL team not to have won a game when trailing going into the 3rd period this season), and we certainly have given up the lead on numerous occasions (though no idea how we compare with other teams in that department).

Going back to his Sens days, there is no doubt that they came up short several times in the playoffs, despite being the favored team. Some people blame it on goaltending, but I think that's a convenient scapegoat.
Especially when the sens played the laffs, they got beat "emotionally" every year.
again, some might blame the players, but ultimately getting the guys ready to play/compete is the coach's job (and those same players did manage to get to the finals once he moved on).

we're not in the locker room, so no way to really judge his methods in dealing with the players pre-game/in-between periods/post-game, but when there's smoke...

personality wise, the more i see Marting "up close" (as our coach as opposed to coaching other teams), the more I think he's lacking the "oomph" needed to be an effective leader... you don't need to be a Rex Ryan type to be successful, but if you're going to be the strong silent or reserved type, you'd better be a ruthless sob like Bowman. Martin strikes me as being a bit to passive, ego wise (again, i don't necessarily mean extrovert), to give the "troops" what they need.

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01-17-2011, 10:39 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
agree or disagree with Martin's system, it's hard not to fault or at least question his ability to "rally the troops"...

in team sports, one of the most important skills for a head coach, imo, is the ability to manage his team's psyche.

i don't have time to dig it all up, but I'd love to see how often the habs:
- give up a 2+ goal lead
- come back from being down

regardless of the style of game a coach has his team play, the team needs to have the ability to both rally, and to protect leads.

it may just be perception, but it seems to me that the habs rarely are able to come back from being down (i think i recall hearing a stat recently that we were the only NHL team not to have won a game when trailing going into the 3rd period this season), and we certainly have given up the lead on numerous occasions (though no idea how we compare with other teams in that department).

Going back to his Sens days, there is no doubt that they came up short several times in the playoffs, despite being the favored team. Some people blame it on goaltending, but I think that's a convenient scapegoat.
Especially when the sens played the laffs, they got beat "emotionally" every year.
again, some might blame the players, but ultimately getting the guys ready to play/compete is the coach's job (and those same players did manage to get to the finals once he moved on).

we're not in the locker room, so no way to really judge his methods in dealing with the players pre-game/in-between periods/post-game, but when there's smoke...

personality wise, the more i see Marting "up close" (as our coach as opposed to coaching other teams), the more I think he's lacking the "oomph" needed to be an effective leader... you don't need to be a Rex Ryan type to be successful, but if you're going to be the strong silent or reserved type, you'd better be a ruthless sob like Bowman. Martin strikes me as being a bit to passive, ego wise (again, i don't necessarily mean extrovert), to give the "troops" what they need.
Habs came from behind against boston in the 3rd period a few days ago. It may have been montreal's first win when trailing after two and it was also the bruins first loss when leading after two periods.

At least they have found a way to get points after conceding the first goal as of late... that's something they weren'tt able to do earlier in the year

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:45 PM
  #62
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It happens at novice, pee-wee, bantam, midget, junior, AHL, KHL and NHL levels. It's called human nature. It happens in football, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc.
Exactly

If one is not suppose to celebrate TOTALLY when they score the over time winner in hockey when are they to celebrate?????

The moment they score IS the moment of.....celebration. LET THEM CELEBRATE.



Onward PK and the Habs.

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01-17-2011, 10:48 PM
  #63
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Habs came from behind against boston in the 3rd period a few days ago. It may have been montreal's first win when trailing after two and it was also the bruins first loss when leading after two periods.

At least they have found a way to get points after conceding the first goal as of late... that's something they weren'tt able to do earlier in the year
that's right... how could i forget that awesome night!


that said, it may perhaps be the exception that proves the rule.

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