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01-17-2011, 07:09 AM
  #51
jol
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Vokoun has a no trade clause, so he has to give the final word on where (and whether) he goes. I don't think we'll see Markstrom this season, he's better, imo, getting more time in the AHL and getting used to the North American game. I'm not convinced we'll see him next season, either.

If we don't re-sing Vokoun, I'd imagine he'd take a look at Niemi, Theodore, etc. for next season, unless Markstrom has a lights out camp.
Barry Jackson in Miami Herald:

"The Panthers have been planning to make a multiyear offer to goaltender Tomas Vokoun, who is in the last season of his contract, with a trade a strong possibility if he doesn't accept. Vokoun, who has a no-trade clause, would need to approve any deal. But it's more difficult to see Vokoun accepting an offer after coach Pete DeBoer irritated him by not starting him Thursday or Saturday"

Now interesting thing, what does offer mean, deal or trade?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/1...ns-ticket.html

JOL

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01-17-2011, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Until I hear about him dominating the AHL, I don't want to see Markstrom in a Panthers sweater. After the last failed rebuild, I don't want to see any more prospects ruined by being thrown into the fray too early.
Who the heck made you moderator?

All those frog jokes and frog in a bag pictures I posted in the past.. I'm screwed!

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01-17-2011, 08:07 AM
  #53
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Who the heck made you moderator?

All those frog jokes and frog in a bag pictures I posted in the past.. I'm screwed!
Yeah, pretty much.

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01-17-2011, 09:34 AM
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read the article and vokoun said a couple of things i don't like. as i recall he said he deserved his contract and was worth it and had a no trade clause because he desrved it. bottom line i think he is very over rated and now way deserves 6 mill a year. i think his expectations on a new contract will be way too high and i don't think we can trade him due to his performance, contract and possible contract demands. imo he is the most over paid goalie in the league based on performance and skills!!

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01-17-2011, 10:51 AM
  #55
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01-17-2011, 11:28 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by harv3317 View Post
read the article and vokoun said a couple of things i don't like. as i recall he said he deserved his contract and was worth it and had a no trade clause because he desrved it. bottom line i think he is very over rated and now way deserves 6 mill a year. i think his expectations on a new contract will be way too high and i don't think we can trade him due to his performance, contract and possible contract demands. imo he is the most over paid goalie in the league based on performance and skills!!

Dont agree, but thats ok. I think hes saying that his play in Nashville earned the contact he got and the NTC, and it probably did. Whether he played to that value as a Panther is debatable; my opinion is he played well here, gave what he had, and was always a stand up guy when he did not play well.

Nothing he says here harv intimates hes asking for 6 mil moving forward or anything close to that, or even half of that. And if they dont come to terms the Tallon did the right thing by giving Vokun an opportunity and then getting best value at trade deadline.

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01-17-2011, 02:19 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by harv3317 View Post
read the article and vokoun said a couple of things i don't like. as i recall he said he deserved his contract and was worth it and had a no trade clause because he desrved it. bottom line i think he is very over rated and now way deserves 6 mill a year. i think his expectations on a new contract will be way too high and i don't think we can trade him due to his performance, contract and possible contract demands. imo he is the most over paid goalie in the league based on performance and skills!!
Look at his numbers over the years. That's all that needs to be said, really.

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01-17-2011, 02:40 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by harv3317 View Post
read the article and vokoun said a couple of things i don't like. as i recall he said he deserved his contract and was worth it and had a no trade clause because he desrved it. bottom line i think he is very over rated and now way deserves 6 mill a year. i think his expectations on a new contract will be way too high and i don't think we can trade him due to his performance, contract and possible contract demands. imo he is the most over paid goalie in the league based on performance and skills!!
Seriously, can you put together any kind of valid argument as to why Vokoun is a bad goalie? It's similar to mogo saying he doesn't like the way Vokoun plays. Are you on the same boat? If so, how did you react to goalies of the past before Roy came around and the butterfly style became popular on a wide scale? The only guys utilizing any kind of butterfly before the 90s were Hall, Esposito, and Tretiak, pretty much. Were they the only good goalies prior to the '90s?

I'm honestly getting extremely annoyed at people thinking a hybrid style of goaltending is in some way bad. It's not. Yest it's true that the butterfly is a very efficient and effective way of goaltending, but it isn't the only way (though unfortunately it's trending that way).

Vokoun's style does not make him a worse goalie. Look at Tim Thomas. The frontrunner for the Vezina--which if won will be his second. He has an erratic style and does just fine with it.

So please, present a valid argument showing how Vokoun is a bad goalie. And please, don't post some videos of bad goals. That is not an argument.

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01-17-2011, 02:50 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Look at his numbers over the years. That's all that needs to be said, really.
I still believe his numbers are misleading...With us he's obviously gotten substantially way more shots against, and thus his SV% has bettered when compared with his time in Nashville.

You can even analyze this within his own time in Nashville, the first half of his early years in Nashville he got way less shots against and his SV% was way less as well, only when he started getting 1000 plus shots was he able to move over the low 900's SV%.

Of course one should also consider that he has obviously matured and gained experienced since then, and has hit his prime while here in Florida. But I still don't like him, I still don't like his playing style, I still don't think he is an athletic goalie and I still think his time is simply over with us. It's time to move on. I have no desire to resign him at all. With that said, I do believe he is a top 10 goalie in the league, and there is no reason to keep him in this perennial loser of an organization, and I do believe he is personally a great professional and deserves better, specially taking into consideration his age and also the most important thing for me is some sort of return since we're in rebuilding mode.

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01-17-2011, 02:53 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post
Seriously, can you put together any kind of valid argument as to why Vokoun is a bad goalie? It's similar to mogo saying he doesn't like the way Vokoun plays. Are you on the same boat? If so, how did you react to goalies of the past before Roy came around and the butterfly style became popular on a wide scale? The only guys utilizing any kind of butterfly before the 90s were Hall, Esposito, and Tretiak, pretty much. Were they the only good goalies prior to the '90s?

I'm honestly getting extremely annoyed at people thinking a hybrid style of goaltending is in some way bad. It's not. Yest it's true that the butterfly is a very efficient and effective way of goaltending, but it isn't the only way (though unfortunately it's trending that way).

Vokoun's style does not make him a worse goalie. Look at Tim Thomas. The frontrunner for the Vezina--which if won will be his second. He has an erratic style and does just fine with it.

So please, present a valid argument showing how Vokoun is a bad goalie. And please, don't post some videos of bad goals. That is not an argument.
ummm yeah, but Timmy is ummm undoubtedly more athletic than Vokoun... Vokoun relies on good positioning.

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01-17-2011, 03:22 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Panteras View Post
I still believe his numbers are misleading...With us he's obviously gotten substantially way more shots against, and thus his SV% has bettered when compared with his time in Nashville.

You can even analyze this within his own time in Nashville, the first half of his early years in Nashville he got way less shots against and his SV% was way less as well, only when he started getting 1000 plus shots was he able to move over the low 900's SV%.

Of course one should also consider that he has obviously matured and gained experienced since then, and has hit his prime while here in Florida. But I still don't like him, I still don't like his playing style, I still don't think he is an athletic goalie and I still think his time is simply over with us. It's time to move on. I have no desire to resign him at all. With that said, I do believe he is a top 10 goalie in the league, and there is no reason to keep him in this perennial loser of an organization, and I do believe he is personally a great professional and deserves better, specially taking into consideration his age and also the most important thing for me is some sort of return since we're in rebuilding mode.

I'm not really trying to debate this. That's your opinion; we've been over it, etc.

My point is that the reason he makes the money he makes is because of the numbers he's put up. Dislike him and his style or not, his numbers are impressive.

This, again, just proves harv wrong on the matter. According to harv, Vokoun is still here because he's not a top 15 goalie, and no team wants him. harv also says that it's not all about the #'s, and that GM's look at his style, etc.

This was said in a thread a couple of days ago; my point is that #'s do matter. They prove what you've produced and GM's look at that just as much as fans do.

That's why Vokoun makes the money he makes. He's consistently put up the #'s (whether you think they're deceiving or not is your opinion).

For what it's worth, we had this debate last year and I really disagreed. This year, I'd actually agree with you. I don't think he's been as good as his #'s this year, but again...he's still put up the #'s, and my opinion on that is rather irrelevant.

It's impossible to debate the #'s. When you debate opinions against facts, the factual side always wins.

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01-17-2011, 03:24 PM
  #62
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.

... With that said, I do believe he is a top 10 goalie in the league, and there is no reason to keep him in this perennial loser of an organization, and I do believe he is personally a great professional and deserves better,....


You stipulate hes a top 10 goalie, a great professional and deserves well. Sounds like the perfect mentor for Markstrom at the right price for a team on the upswing. I hope we resign him, PD allows the top 10 goalie back between the pipes and we move on.

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01-17-2011, 03:28 PM
  #63
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By the way, to continue with the #'s debate...it's also the reason why Vokoun's currently getting his benching.

Compare Vokoun and Clemmensen's January #'s, and you'll see why Clemmensen is getting more starts.

Numbers matter. A lot.

Style means nothing; all that coaches, etc. care about is whether or not you can stop the puck, consistently.

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01-17-2011, 03:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post
Seriously, can you put together any kind of valid argument as to why Vokoun is a bad goalie? It's similar to mogo saying he doesn't like the way Vokoun plays. Are you on the same boat? If so, how did you react to goalies of the past before Roy came around and the butterfly style became popular on a wide scale? The only guys utilizing any kind of butterfly before the 90s were Hall, Esposito, and Tretiak, pretty much. Were they the only good goalies prior to the '90s?

I'm honestly getting extremely annoyed at people thinking a hybrid style of goaltending is in some way bad. It's not. Yest it's true that the butterfly is a very efficient and effective way of goaltending, but it isn't the only way (though unfortunately it's trending that way).

Vokoun's style does not make him a worse goalie. Look at Tim Thomas. The frontrunner for the Vezina--which if won will be his second. He has an erratic style and does just fine with it.

So please, present a valid argument showing how Vokoun is a bad goalie. And please, don't post some videos of bad goals. That is not an argument.
I love Vokoun when his game is on. But he scares me even then. Because he flip-flops and he does tend to let in a lot none screened shots from way out. I wish he never went behind the net because he must be the worst puck handling goalie in the league.

Thomas style is very different than Vokoun flip-flop

I hope Vokoun get's back on his game and he'll still flip-flop but i'll never feel safe with him Maybe it's just me fearing the worst always with how the things have gone for us for over a decade now

As for his numbers with Nashville. Every goalie will have great stats in Nashville there a juggernaut defensivly and hard working group and have always been. Pekka Rinne has been so horrible for Finland at international level and many here wonder why and I've always said it's totally different game without having that preds system/defense in front of him.

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01-17-2011, 03:38 PM
  #65
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Disliking a player's style does not mean that player is bad. And we've had this stupid argument before. Saying Vokoun isn't athletic is just false. His style forces him to rely on athleticism.

Also, the Thomas example went way over your head. It was not an argument for Vokoun so much as it was an argument against the mentality that the butterfly is the only way to go.

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01-17-2011, 03:59 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
I'm not really trying to debate this. That's your opinion; we've been over it, etc.

My point is that the reason he makes the money he makes is because of the numbers he's put up. Dislike him and his style or not, his numbers are impressive.

This, again, just proves harv wrong on the matter. According to harv, Vokoun is still here because he's not a top 15 goalie, and no team wants him. harv also says that it's not all about the #'s, and that GM's look at his style, etc.

This was said in a thread a couple of days ago; my point is that #'s do matter. They prove what you've produced and GM's look at that just as much as fans do.

That's why Vokoun makes the money he makes. He's consistently put up the #'s (whether you think they're deceiving or not is your opinion).

For what it's worth, we had this debate last year and I really disagreed. This year, I'd actually agree with you. I don't think he's been as good as his #'s this year, but again...he's still put up the #'s, and my opinion on that is rather irrelevant.

It's impossible to debate the #'s. When you debate opinions against facts, the factual side always wins.
Fair enough Erick you make some good points...Of course I am in no way shape or form saying stats don't matter, but at the same time they are not always black and white, or tell the whole story.


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You stipulate hes a top 10 goalie, a great professional and deserves well. Sounds like the perfect mentor for Markstrom at the right price for a team on the upswing. I hope we resign him, PD allows the top 10 goalie back between the pipes and we move on.
Thing is, if Vokoun resigns how long would he sign for? Realistically less than 3 years, and would he be willing to take a paycut? And most importantly would he be willing to stay in a franchise like ours for 3 more yours which would almost mean he retires with us? Meaning he would most likely never get a shot at playoff action? Also, Clemmensen's in the way, the dude has a contract running till 2012, meaning he will most likely see that contract run out unless someone actually deals for him which I highly doubt, and what this means in the grand scheme of things is that perhaps Markstrom won't even get a chance to be "mentored" by Vokoun anyways...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post
Disliking a player's style does not mean that player is bad. And we've had this stupid argument before. Saying Vokoun isn't athletic is just false. His style forces him to rely on athleticism.

Also, the Thomas example went way over your head. It was not an argument for Vokoun so much as it was an argument against the mentality that the butterfly is the only way to go.
I have never said Vokoun is bad, and I don't think he is as athletic as other goalies out there, but yet again we have had this argument before and it's a matter of opinion which I have no desire to continue.

With regards to Thomas I do understand what you were trying to say about the different playing styles, and of course I agree, I think it's pretty ridiculous to think one should play a certain style etc.. nevertheless it doesn't take away from the fact that Vokoun's style does make me nervous some times and doesn't take away from the fact that Thomas' reckless style is supported by superb athleticism, one of if not the highest amongst goalies in the league

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01-17-2011, 04:37 PM
  #67
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I love Vokoun when his game is on. But he scares me even then. Because he flip-flops and he does tend to let in a lot none screened shots from way out. I wish he never went behind the net because he must be the worst puck handling goalie in the league.

Thomas style is very different than Vokoun flip-flop

I hope Vokoun get's back on his game and he'll still flip-flop but i'll never feel safe with him Maybe it's just me fearing the worst always with how the things have gone for us for over a decade now

As for his numbers with Nashville. Every goalie will have great stats in Nashville there a juggernaut defensivly and hard working group and have always been. Pekka Rinne has been so horrible for Finland at international level and many here wonder why and I've always said it's totally different game without having that preds system/defense in front of him.
you continue to repeat this but let me assure you, you are the ONLY one who watches him play that could call his style flip flop (assuming by flip flop you mean flopping around, etc.). imo (and i think everyone will agree with me - for a change), you are way off on this.

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01-17-2011, 10:22 PM
  #68
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Barry Jackson in Miami Herald:

"The Panthers have been planning to make a multiyear offer to goaltender Tomas Vokoun, who is in the last season of his contract, with a trade a strong possibility if he doesn't accept. Vokoun, who has a no-trade clause, would need to approve any deal. But it's more difficult to see Vokoun accepting an offer after coach Pete DeBoer irritated him by not starting him Thursday or Saturday"

Now interesting thing, what does offer mean, deal or trade?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/1...ns-ticket.html

JOL
Pretty sure that offer in that instance means deal.

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