HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Paul Holmgren earns 3-year contract extension

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-18-2011, 02:51 PM
  #51
KimiFerrari
Messi Is God
 
KimiFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Argentina
Posts: 3,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
no, we traded our 2nd this year for Meszaros
No we traded our 2012 2nd for Mez. Sad but true.

KimiFerrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 02:57 PM
  #52
chaosof99*
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Austria
Country: Austria
Posts: 16,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
It would be a valid point if we weren't in a cap league...you can't piss away draft picks that easily for higher priced veterans and hope to have a future. The league is younger these days and the chances that a first rounder produces at a cheaper price is what has to be considered. I'm sure other people will agree with this....
You do realize that teams are somewhat lucky when they get draft picks to immediately step up and play full time on entry-level salary.

There is also the fact that the teams that are usually heavily dependent on such entry-level players are usually those that do not spend to the cap ceiling, and often also have an inferior hockey product. Oilers and Islanders are prime examples of this. The Oilers have more than 13 million of cap space this season, the Isles more than 18.

Of course, this has also some economic reasons, but the Flyers are a financially very sound team as far as I can tell. Almost all games sell out, and they're backed by an absolute media giant in Comcast.

There is the problem of bumping against the ceiling, but that is cap management, not the same topic as retaining draft picks for the sake of having draft picks/young players in development which you can't yet use full-time. Of course, trading a pick for a veteran is only a good idea when you can fit the veteran into the cap space you got. However, I thought that point would be so obvious that I didn't have to explicitly mention it...

chaosof99* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 03:07 PM
  #53
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I do think Holmgren is learning from his mistakes and I am cautiously optimistic that his stupid moves have ceased.

However, 2 moves that will ALWAYS blow my mind are:

Signing Jones 2 years at 2.75 million per. I literally figured it was 2.75 spread over 2 years when he first got that contract, and even then ~1.4 for Jones seemed like a lot to me. Jones went from making 525k to making 2.75 million. Horrible deal then, horrible deal now. Also recalling him on re-entry was awful

trading Upshall AND a 2011 2nd for Carcillo in 2009. I know some people hated Upshall, but still we should have been the ones getting a pick back not Phoenix. (and people who cite cap reasons can look back up to crazy move number 1, and see a much more sensible target for cap space)

Also I wish we had just traded Gagne for a 4th, rather than taking Walker's bad contract back for 3 years

I will get smoked for defending this, but whatever. When JOnes was signed he came off an amazing playoffs and was an important part of a makeshift defense (we didn't have Pronger then). We needed to keep him and overpaid. I remember talking about this before he signed and most people thought he was going to get about 2-2.5 million for three years and got 2.7 for 2. Bringing him up on re-entry wasn't smart, but I truly believe HOmer and management didn't expect anyone to claim Jones at the 1.4 it cost. However, I think they have learned from that. Look at other teams on capgeek - most teams have at least 1 player "buyout"/reentry, we have zero and therefore we are able to spend to the cap.

We traded Upshall like Detroit traded Leino. IT is difficult to lose a player at 6.5 million (Briere) for most of the year and have him return for the last 10 games of the season without it causing problems for you. We lost Upshall to get Giroux up, it wasn't a "bad move" it was a "salary cap casualty". Just like Leino had to be traded when Datsyk and others came back off LTIR. LTIR doesn't help unless you are spending to the cap and even then, it doesn't help much.

My problem with the Homer chatter on this site is people talk about Randy Jones, Matt Walker, Jody Shelley, Scotty Upshall, Steve Eminger over and over without ever mentioning Ville Leino, Braydon Coburn, Kimmo Timonen, Scott Hartnell, Chris Pronger, and the numerous good moves that offset the bad.

He is a Home-run hitter that strikes out from time to time. I much prefer that to Bob Gainey/Dean Lombardi who sit on their hands scared to lose a deal. People continue to ignore the team results as a factor,e ignore the positive deals, won't give Homer the Pronger deal unless we win a Stanley Cup (the hardest trophy in sports to win), etc. So, Homer will never be fully accepted until the Flyers win a cup and I will be the first one on here saying - OK, enough already. Leave Homer alone - we just won it all, give it up, give it a rest, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!

phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 03:07 PM
  #54
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,050
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
You do realize that teams are somewhat lucky when they get draft picks to immediately step up and play full time on entry-level salary.

There is also the fact that the teams that are usually heavily dependent on such entry-level players are usually those that do not spend to the cap ceiling, and often also have an inferior hockey product. Oilers and Islanders are prime examples of this. The Oilers have more than 13 million of cap space this season, the Isles more than 18.

Of course, this has also some economic reasons, but the Flyers are a financially very sound team as far as I can tell. Almost all games sell out, and they're backed by an absolute media giant in Comcast.

There is the problem of bumping against the ceiling, but that is cap management, not the same topic as retaining draft picks for the sake of having draft picks/young players in development which you can't yet use full-time. Of course, trading a pick for a veteran is only a good idea when you can fit the veteran into the cap space you got. However, I thought that point would be so obvious that I didn't have to explicitly mention it...
You do realize there is something called balance? I'm not advocating for an extreme either way..I'm saying to be a successful GM these days you have to have a balanced approach to how your structure your roster otherwise you screw yourself both short and long term...

BTW...being backed by Comcast does nothing for Holmgren..the cap is the cap no matter if Apple owns the Flyers. Only Clarke enjoyed that luxury prior to the cap...


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 01-18-2011 at 03:23 PM.
FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 03:50 PM
  #55
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
I have had some harsh words for Holmgren, and I still think that this team could have been even better than it is if he had done a better job last summer. I hope he learns to be patient sometime. That said though, I think he's definitely done a good enough job to be resigned.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 03:57 PM
  #56
CharlieGirl
Get well soon Kimmo
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,966
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I have had some harsh words for Holmgren, and I still think that this team could have been even better than it is if he had done a better job last summer. I hope he learns to be patient sometime. That said though, I think he's definitely done a good enough job to be resigned.
Well said.

CharlieGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:06 PM
  #57
phantomphan
Registered User
 
phantomphan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 200
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I have had some harsh words for Holmgren, and I still think that this team could have been even better than it is if he had done a better job last summer. I hope he learns to be patient sometime. That said though, I think he's definitely done a good enough job to be resigned.
Is there something better than first?

phantomphan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:13 PM
  #58
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Good for him considering he was a lost shootout away from being fired.
Not True. Ed had no plans on firing Homer.

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:13 PM
  #59
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,050
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomphan View Post
Is there something better than first?
In fairness...I think he means better positioned for the playoffs with even more depth/players who are more playoff type players possibly. This is not to say the Flyers aren't positioned for a good run but I guess we still have some question marks such as the need for a faceoff specialist, better special teams and well....a goalie that has more playoff experience. Not all easy things to come by but maybe he could have addressed them a bit better this offseason..I think it's a fair assessment. Playoffs are a whole different season lets remember..being 1st is really nice and helps your chances if you get home ice but need a lot more intangibles in the playoffs because it's a tighter game and one of inches as we saw last year especially in the playoffs where Leighton ceded more than Niemi..again not all his fault but he was def not a help and Holmgren even said he didn't give the team a chance to win in the finals even if he helped get them there but finishing is always the hardest part....

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:17 PM
  #60
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You are not alone.... there are many of us who recognize, as the coach, GM and players do, how well Mr. Carle plays game in, game out.
I have to admit I was not a fan at 1st. But his play last year and this year without Chris has swayed my thinking about him.

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:22 PM
  #61
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I will get smoked for defending this, but whatever. When JOnes was signed he came off an amazing playoffs and was an important part of a makeshift defense (we didn't have Pronger then). We needed to keep him and overpaid. I remember talking about this before he signed and most people thought he was going to get about 2-2.5 million for three years and got 2.7 for 2. Bringing him up on re-entry wasn't smart, but I truly believe HOmer and management didn't expect anyone to claim Jones at the 1.4 it cost. However, I think they have learned from that. Look at other teams on capgeek - most teams have at least 1 player "buyout"/reentry, we have zero and therefore we are able to spend to the cap.
This is crazy talk... folks thought Jones was going to get like 1.5M. Holmgren thought he was going to get like 2.25 or whatever in arbitration, so he overpaid him for 2 years (as opposed to 1) for reasons that cannot rationally be explained.

Jones was terrible and anyone that watched Flyer games should have known that. I assume Holmgren watched Flyer games.

Quote:
We traded Upshall like Detroit traded Leino. IT is difficult to lose a player at 6.5 million (Briere) for most of the year and have him return for the last 10 games of the season without it causing problems for you. We lost Upshall to get Giroux up, it wasn't a "bad move" it was a "salary cap casualty". Just like Leino had to be traded when Datsyk and others came back off LTIR. LTIR doesn't help unless you are spending to the cap and even then, it doesn't help much.
Detroit got a draft pick for Leino. We gave up a draft pick and got Carcillo... who is barely managing to hold onto a roster spot right now.

Moreover, the Upshall trade didn't even solve the cap problem it was supposedly geared towards solving.

So, if you want to compare the Upshall deal to the Leino deal you'd end up with: Detroit did it right, and Holmgren butchered it.

Quote:
My problem with the Homer chatter on this site is people talk about Randy Jones, Matt Walker, Jody Shelley, Scotty Upshall, Steve Eminger over and over without ever mentioning Ville Leino, Braydon Coburn, Kimmo Timonen, Scott Hartnell, Chris Pronger, and the numerous good moves that offset the bad.
BS. Read more.

Quote:
He is a Home-run hitter that strikes out from time to time. I much prefer that to Bob Gainey/Dean Lombardi who sit on their hands scared to lose a deal. People continue to ignore the team results as a factor,e ignore the positive deals, won't give Homer the Pronger deal unless we win a Stanley Cup (the hardest trophy in sports to win), etc. So, Homer will never be fully accepted until the Flyers win a cup and I will be the first one on here saying - OK, enough already. Leave Homer alone - we just won it all, give it up, give it a rest, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!
Probably should have stopped before this paragraph, as the following is just too easy:


Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:29 PM
  #62
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
His build from the defense out was a thing of brilliance. If Bobrovsky can just be solid this team has a very good chance if he can tweak one or two moves at the deadline.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:37 PM
  #63
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
no, we traded our 2nd this year for Meszaros
Wrong. that was next year's pick!

Quote:
On July 1, 2010, the first day of NHL Free Agency, Meszároš was traded to the Philadelphia Flyers in exchange for a 2nd round pick in 2012.[6]
Quote:
My problem with the Homer chatter on this site is people talk about Randy Jones, Matt Walker, Jody Shelley, Scotty Upshall, Steve Eminger over and over without ever mentioning Ville Leino, Braydon Coburn, Kimmo Timonen, Scott Hartnell, Chris Pronger, and the numerous good moves that offset the bad.
Every debate me, you and Jester and whoever else has had about Holmgren we have always pointed out the good with the bad. Holmgren is great at evaluating talent and such and knows how to build a team, his problems are his love for goons, poor cap management, poor asset management, and lack of patience.

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:38 PM
  #64
KimiFerrari
Messi Is God
 
KimiFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Argentina
Posts: 3,818
vCash: 500
And it begins...

KimiFerrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:42 PM
  #65
Larry44
10 - 88
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,263
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
No we traded our 2012 2nd for Mez. Sad but true.
Why sad? Not sad at all. We got a very good d-man for just a 2nd round pick. His presence has given us one of the deepest Ds in the league and allowed us to lose Pronger for weeks and not miss a beat.

Fantastic deal. I'm sure Homer would do it again in a heartbeat.

Larry44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:42 PM
  #66
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Jester - your right as always, so no need for me to point out how Detroit only got a 5th and we got back a roster player and so on. For everyone else, Homer is doing a great job and I'm glad he got the 3 year extension for his good work. OF course, the ultimate vindication may come this June.

phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:45 PM
  #67
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Why sad? Not sad at all. We got a very good d-man for just a 2nd round pick. His presence has given us one of the deepest Ds in the league and allowed us to lose Pronger for weeks and not miss a beat.

Fantastic deal. I'm sure Homer would do it again in a heartbeat.
The deal isn't sad, it's the fact that we have already traded away picks for a draft 2 drafts away. I love Mez, but it just shows how awful Holmgren is at pick management. He should have had a 2011 pick to trade for Mezaros

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:45 PM
  #68
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Jester - your right as always, so no need for me to point out how Detroit only got a 5th and we got back a roster player and so on. For everyone else, Homer is doing a great job and I'm glad he got the 3 year extension for his good work. OF course, the ultimate vindication may come this June.
Certainly true... except the justification to trade Upshall is that it would solve cap problems; it didn't. The same justification was in place with Detroit, and they made a deal that did solve their cap problems.

Note: when you are trying to clear cap space, you probably don't want a roster player back.

My problem with what you said is that it was slim on facts and presented to avoid the reality of the comparison between the two deals. If you want to defend Holmgren dealing Upshall, you at least have to mention the fact that he completely and utterly failed to clear the necessary cap room to solve the issue at the time, and THAT is why we had ATOs dressing for games at the end of the season. We could have kept Upshall and done that if we had wanted to.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:49 PM
  #69
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Every debate me, you and Jester and whoever else has had about Holmgren we have always pointed out the good with the bad. Holmgren is great at evaluating talent and such and knows how to build a team, his problems are his love for goons, poor cap management, poor asset management, and lack of patience.
I didn't say you or Jester or anyone else. I just said, the chatter around here always focuses on the same few examples of poor deals or one liners he has said and very rarely focuses on the many good. You disagree with that? He gets ripped on this site more than any player - I just don't get how that is possible with the success he has had. Anyway, no big deal - I think you already mentioned you agree he is doing a good job, so lets leave it at that.

phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:49 PM
  #70
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Certainly true... except the justification to trade Upshall is that it would solve cap problems; it didn't. The same justification was in place with Detroit, and they made a deal that did solve their cap problems.

Note: when you are trying to clear cap space, you probably don't want a roster player back.

My problem with what you said is that it was slim on facts and presented to avoid the reality of the comparison between the two deals. If you want to defend Holmgren dealing Upshall, you at least have to mention the fact that he completely and utterly failed to clear the necessary cap room to solve the issue at the time, and THAT is why we had ATOs dressing for games at the end of the season. We could have kept Upshall and done that if we had wanted to.
Meanwhile Candy Randy was still getting paid 2.75 mil to brainfart. He should have been replaced by Syvret or Bart

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:50 PM
  #71
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,231
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
I thank Homer for rescuing Carle from Tampa Bay! Good job outta you, Homer!

Sincerely,

The only non-Carle hater on this board.
Stop. Nobody likes a drama queen.

Carle has plenty of supporters. You, Agrudez, and plenty of others think he is a fine d-man. Granted he has his haters, but everyone does.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:51 PM
  #72
KimiFerrari
Messi Is God
 
KimiFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Argentina
Posts: 3,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Why sad? Not sad at all. We got a very good d-man for just a 2nd round pick. His presence has given us one of the deepest Ds in the league and allowed us to lose Pronger for weeks and not miss a beat.

Fantastic deal. I'm sure Homer would do it again in a heartbeat.
Umm I never said it was a bad trade. It is just sad that we won't have a 2nd round until at least 2013. We have still have a few years to see if that can be extended.

KimiFerrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:55 PM
  #73
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Certainly true... except the justification to trade Upshall is that it would solve cap problems; it didn't. The same justification was in place with Detroit, and they made a deal that did solve their cap problems.

Note: when you are trying to clear cap space, you probably don't want a roster player back.

My problem with what you said is that it was slim on facts and presented to avoid the reality of the comparison between the two deals. If you want to defend Holmgren dealing Upshall, you at least have to mention the fact that he completely and utterly failed to clear the necessary cap room to solve the issue at the time, and THAT is why we had ATOs dressing for games at the end of the season. We could have kept Upshall and done that if we had wanted to.
First off, my point was that Detroit and Philly both ran into cap problems due to their top paid player being on LTIR for a majority of the season in markets spending to the cap. I didn't put it as a feather in Homers cap, just pointing out that both teams lost good players due to major injuries and the adjustments made to the roster to make up for them - which is understandable. We lost Upshall and Detroit lost Leino. I wasn't writing a novel about the comparisons between the two trades, so I can leave out any details I want. The point is valid. P.S. Detroit did have to take back O.K. to make the deal and waived him, it just so happened the player we got back ended up becoming the most popular Flyer for a long period of time. Fear the stash!!!

phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:56 PM
  #74
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I didn't say you or Jester or anyone else. I just said, the chatter around here always focuses on the same few examples of poor deals or one liners he has said and very rarely focuses on the many good. You disagree with that? He gets ripped on this site more than any player - I just don't get how that is possible with the success he has had. Anyway, no big deal - I think you already mentioned you agree he is doing a good job, so lets leave it at that.
Waiving Leighton, and signing Carter and Giroux to fair deals has helped me ease up on him. I never expected Carter to get less than Richards. I was a big supporter of Mezaros and OD since day one (still found timing of Mez deal weird, and it is a big contract. I had originally assumed that Carle was going to be traded.) I have never said he was the worst GM in the league or anything like that, it's just that sometimes he seems downright stupid

If he calls Leighton up on re-entry waivers, I will 100% hate him again. Or if he trades our first away in a bad deal.

This deadline he needs to look at goalies, (but not overpay if he is going to get one), trade Walker(if anyone wants him), and maybe acquire a 3rd liner (Glencross is my target).

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:57 PM
  #75
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Meanwhile Candy Randy was still getting paid 2.75 mil to brainfart. He should have been replaced by Syvret or Bart
While I loathed Jones, they clearly should have LTIR'd him that year. His hip was falling apart and he could barely turn around by the end of the season.

Just awful management that entire season.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:45 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.