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01-17-2011, 04:10 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
A lot of complaining about the pick on their 4th goal. The penalty Suter took that gave them the PP and 3rd goal is what I'm still upset about. Suter with an off night to say the least.
-3, by my count, for Suter...count in the bad penalty on Sharp and getting turned inside out by Dave Bolland of all people...not a banner night for Master Suter.

I'm nervous if Bouillon is out for any length of time. Sulzer didn't make a strong case in these two games for regular playing time, looking a little weak in the first game and downright bad in the second.

Also, it's fair to say that Lindback has fallen back down to earth a bit. I'm not pinning the loss entirely on him, but in a game that was close up until the third period, he wasn't making the saves. Any goaltender can stop a routine shot, an NHL goaltender should give you a chance to win. We didn't get that, last night, similar to one of his last games before Pekka came back against LA.

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01-17-2011, 04:18 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
-3, by my count, for Suter...count in the bad penalty on Sharp and getting turned inside out by Dave Bolland of all people...not a banner night for Master Suter.

I'm nervous if Bouillon is out for any length of time. Sulzer didn't make a strong case in these two games for regular playing time, looking a little weak in the first game and downright bad in the second.

Also, it's fair to say that Lindback has fallen back down to earth a bit. I'm not pinning the loss entirely on him, but in a game that was close up until the third period, he wasn't making the saves. Any goaltender can stop a routine shot, an NHL goaltender should give you a chance to win. We didn't get that, last night, similar to one of his last games before Pekka came back against LA.
Well here's the thing, O'Brien would slide into Bouillon's slot and he's looked good with Klein so that doesn't worry me too much. I agree with Sulzer to some degree and this would've worried me only a few weeks ago but Franson has been playing a lot better as of late. Not amazing but he is being more assertive and playing his size as opposed to getting pushed around. I will miss Bouillon's toughness but I think Sulzer can step in and O'Brien can move up and we'll be ok. If not they'll be a call up I'm sure from Milwaukee. If not then they'll be a trade for a veteran defenseman.

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01-17-2011, 04:37 PM
  #103
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Depending on the health of our forwards and asking price of a veteran D, that'd be the piece I'd like to see added at the deadline, personally...if there's someone that can truly make an impact, that is. Not looking at adding Brad Bombardir or Stanislav Neckar just to do so...again.

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01-17-2011, 04:47 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
Depending on the health of our forwards and asking price of a veteran D, that'd be the piece I'd like to see added at the deadline, personally...if there's someone that can truly make an impact, that is. Not looking at adding Brad Bombardir or Stanislav Neckar just to do so...again.
I don't see us adding a d-man unless we have a rash of injuries on the blue line. Suter and Weber will get 30 minutes a night. Klein will get what he's getting now with Bouillon and O'Brien and Franson will get the leftover minutes. I'd like an upgrade if possible but we need a number 4 guy and I just don't know of any out there that can be had at this point or at the trade deadline that makes sense for us.

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01-17-2011, 05:21 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
Depending on the health of our forwards and asking price of a veteran D, that'd be the piece I'd like to see added at the deadline, personally...if there's someone that can truly make an impact, that is. Not looking at adding Brad Bombardir or Stanislav Neckar just to do so...again.
Bombardir wasn't that bad of a pickup, at least we used him and he didn't hurt us. Vishnevsky, Witt, Grebeshkov. Bombardir probably worked out better than all three combined. Plus he sliced an octopus with his skate! (for some reason everyone wanted to credit Greg Johnson, but it was Bombardir)

We have Suter and Weber, so we don't need a high impact D-man. Just a steady veteran presence that can be relied upon to protect the net on a nightly basis. A legit second pair vet is all I want, and it looks like we'll probably need a 3rd line center too...

In fact, Bombardir and Zholtok would be a pretty good trade right now

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01-17-2011, 06:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
-3, by my count, for Suter...count in the bad penalty on Sharp and getting turned inside out by Dave Bolland of all people...not a banner night for Master Suter.

I'm nervous if Bouillon is out for any length of time. Sulzer didn't make a strong case in these two games for regular playing time, looking a little weak in the first game and downright bad in the second.

Also, it's fair to say that Lindback has fallen back down to earth a bit. I'm not pinning the loss entirely on him, but in a game that was close up until the third period, he wasn't making the saves. Any goaltender can stop a routine shot, an NHL goaltender should give you a chance to win. We didn't get that, last night, similar to one of his last games before Pekka came back against LA.
In fairness to Sulzer, how long has it been since he played? Earlier this year when we needed him, and it was closer to him getting some regular time in camp, he played pretty decently. This was the defending champs we played, back-to-back. Now, we get SOB back and Sulzer stinks up the joint for his 3rd line mins a couple more nights, then yes, time to let Laakso/Blum/Josi play.

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01-17-2011, 08:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
One, who are you going to bring in that fits what you think we need at a price that is inexpensive? Franson has actually picked up his physical play as of late. I think someone told him, you're big, play like it and he took it to heart. Klein plays a physical game for his size. Still has some moments but has stepped up big time for us, especially on the PK. Isn't he leading the team for average time on ice on the PK? He's one of the reasons the PK is as effective as it is. Sulzer has played sparingly and when thrust into an NHL game has faired well. He's not the second coming of Bobby Orr but he hasn't fallen on his face and is a suitable number 7 right now.

Like I said, not sure what you expect but until you come up with an alternative, I'm pretty satisfied with our d corps. Granted, we got burned for 6 last night but we also have one of the top 3 goals against rates in the league so they must be doing something right.
Well if I would have said before the season that we should get SK and O'Brien just blindly I'm sure more people would have shot them down from the start but the fact is that they done really good. So why when you say name somebody If Poile looks around and actually does look and I applaud his ability to find the right deal. For all those prospects on D that we have in organization other than Suter and Weber I still say they are weak. Klein has regressed. I thought Hamhuis was bringing him down but he still makes stupid plays. His overall game is good but his lack of attention to details is his undoing. Franson against Chi on sat night go lost and let Sharp go one on one against Rinne...fortunately Rinne made a great save. I could go on and on but I guess I would have to keep a log. The pk wasn't good earlier with Klein and slowly got better when Spauling was inserted in the lineup. So you can play the stat game all you want. I know they are not going to do anything. I'm shocked when they do something. All alteratives aren't going to sound good unless they are like Pronger or Lidstrom but we aren't going to get those type but there are other possibilites if they look. We have great goaltending so our goals against are going to look better. Again your playing the stat game and you've never seen Bobby Orr play you not old enough. I have. So try another angle.

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01-17-2011, 08:39 PM
  #108
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How is Klein regressing? He is part of the PK. I never said he was the sole reason for the PK success but he is part of the PK success. Spaling has helped but he is not a blue liner so to compare the two I don't get. Klein does make dumb mistakes. So does Franson. Heck, Suter looked like a mere mortal last night but you fail to mention he got turned inside out by Bolland. We also forget Weber looked like a mere mortal without Suter alongside him.

Please tell me how Klein has regressed.

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01-17-2011, 09:18 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
How is Klein regressing? He is part of the PK. I never said he was the sole reason for the PK success but he is part of the PK success. Spaling has helped but he is not a blue liner so to compare the two I don't get. Klein does make dumb mistakes. So does Franson. Heck, Suter looked like a mere mortal last night but you fail to mention he got turned inside out by Bolland. We also forget Weber looked like a mere mortal without Suter alongside him.

Please tell me how Klein has regressed.
He's out on the pk because we don't have anything better. You said earlier he plays a physical game that I don't see that at all. He's a pure and simple a puck mover. Since most coaches move their top lines away from Suter and Weber; Klein gets caught in the cross fire and his mistakes are many and most of his mistakes wind up in the back of the net. He's not as good as Hamhuis was but Hamhuis wasn't as good as he got paid. He's a good second pair with a good partner which he doesn't have. Time will be his biggest assest because he has talent for a non contact defenseman. He needs some of what the cube and Sob bring...a mean streak. Bouillion and O'Brien aren't second pair material. They have their limits. But what they do and give us is really good. We are one solid defenseman from being an elite defensive team.

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01-17-2011, 09:33 PM
  #110
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Yeah Suter, Weber and Lindback all had bad games. Suter and Weber looked gased having played the night before and having to make up time given we were down a defensemen early. They looked like they couldn't get into the flow given the circumstances and penalties on both sides.

I'm not worried about them. That stuff happens. I am more worried about our top two lines falling back down to Earth. Alot of last night's problems came from us not being able to sustain pressure in the offensive zone.

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01-17-2011, 09:36 PM
  #111
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He's out on the pk because we don't have anything better. You said earlier he plays a physical game that I don't see that at all. He's a pure and simple a puck mover. Since most coaches move their top lines away from Suter and Weber; Klein gets caught in the cross fire and his mistakes are many and most of his mistakes wind up in the back of the net. He's not as good as Hamhuis was but Hamhuis wasn't as good as he got paid. He's a good second pair with a good partner which he doesn't have. Time will be his biggest assest because he has talent for a non contact defenseman. He needs some of what the cube and Sob bring...a mean streak. Bouillion and O'Brien aren't second pair material. They have their limits. But what they do and give us is really good. We are one solid defenseman from being an elite defensive team.
I hate to break it to you but we are an elite defensive team. We give up the least goals per game or are top 3 in that category. For a team that is starved offensively, we have to rely on defense and we do just that. If you look at our numbers versus those of Vancouver's, the big difference is that they score about a goal more a game than us. Pretty impressive to have the record we do with as little as offense as we generate.

If we don't have anything better on the PK why is Klein used against the other teams number 1 PP unit? Also, as good as Weber and Suter are, a lot of times Trotz uses Klein and Bouillon against the other teams top line. It just depends on match ups and the team we're playing. Also, many teams have two good lines, ala Chicago so Weber and Suter can't always be out there so Klein and Bouillon are.

Klein's mistakes are sometimes his and sometimes his partners. Plenty of guys on this team make mistakes. If you or anyone, including myself, key on anyone player, we can rip their games apart. Is Klein as bad as you say, probably not. I would ask you this, count the amount of plays he's involved in tomorrow night. Count how many times the puck goes in the net versus how many times it doesn't. Count how many times he's part of us scoring or us getting scored on.

All things being equal, he and Hamhuis should've made a great second pairing for us. I think their skills complimented each others but for some reason, they didn't click. I would love to see us acquire a veteran d-man that could play with him on the second pairing and improve our depth on the blue line. I just don't know who it could or would be. Like I said, I'd be up for hearing any suggestions you may have on the matter. It's not like top 4 guys grow on trees.

All in all, I think our d is as good as I've seen it in years. Yeah, we had a bad game last night but for the most part, we have been keeping teams to 2 goals or less the last 10 games or so. If we do that 9 games out of 10, we're gonna do just fine.

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01-17-2011, 10:15 PM
  #112
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Yep Glen

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01-17-2011, 10:44 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
He's out on the pk because we don't have anything better.
What a ridiculous thing to say. Klein only anchors the top PK pairing on a PK that currently ranks 5th in the NHL. But he must only be out there because we have nothing better right?

I call out players when they deserve it but fanbases always have a whipping boys and magnify everything they do. Klein has certainly turned into one of those whipping boys along with Legwand and to a certain extent Franson. Klein is still prone to the occasional horrid play but he has been a steady 2nd pairing D this year. Pretty much filling in Hamhuis's role well.

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01-17-2011, 11:56 PM
  #114
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coming into last nights game, only boston had given up fewer goals. may have dropped a spot giving up what we did. but you see the point.

and for being a non contact dman, he has been credited with 73 hits this year. not bad considering he spends a good amount of time chasing men and pucks when his d partner gets out of position hitting even more than he does.

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01-18-2011, 10:26 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I hate to break it to you but we are an elite defensive team. We give up the least goals per game or are top 3 in that category. For a team that is starved offensively, we have to rely on defense and we do just that. If you look at our numbers versus those of Vancouver's, the big difference is that they score about a goal more a game than us. Pretty impressive to have the record we do with as little as offense as we generate.

If we don't have anything better on the PK why is Klein used against the other teams number 1 PP unit? Also, as good as Weber and Suter are, a lot of times Trotz uses Klein and Bouillon against the other teams top line. It just depends on match ups and the team we're playing. Also, many teams have two good lines, ala Chicago so Weber and Suter can't always be out there so Klein and Bouillon are.

Klein's mistakes are sometimes his and sometimes his partners. Plenty of guys on this team make mistakes. If you or anyone, including myself, key on anyone player, we can rip their games apart. Is Klein as bad as you say, probably not. I would ask you this, count the amount of plays he's involved in tomorrow night. Count how many times the puck goes in the net versus how many times it doesn't. Count how many times he's part of us scoring or us getting scored on.

All things being equal, he and Hamhuis should've made a great second pairing for us. I think their skills complimented each others but for some reason, they didn't click. I would love to see us acquire a veteran d-man that could play with him on the second pairing and improve our depth on the blue line. I just don't know who it could or would be. Like I said, I'd be up for hearing any suggestions you may have on the matter. It's not like top 4 guys grow on trees.

All in all, I think our d is as good as I've seen it in years. Yeah, we had a bad game last night but for the most part, we have been keeping teams to 2 goals or less the last 10 games or so. If we do that 9 games out of 10, we're gonna do just fine.
Well taken the fact that your talking about the regular season and the regular is just that when you play a different team every night. The competition will range from really good to average to bad. That is all depending on injuries to the teams and long road trips and who's hot and who's not. When it comes to playoffs we don't dominate we compete but we don't dominate. I think that last year team was better than this years team defensively and it didn't prove out. I see your a stat man and how do you calculate a 3rd line player like Boland beating our best D Suter. See there is no calculating that in stats. It just happens. Lots of reasons that it happened and we don't know exactly what the right reasons are. About Klein being on the pk and that's your biggest thing. They don't put Suter and Weber as much because of the mins they log 5 on 5 and the pp. So they are trying to rest them as much as possible. Are you saying that Klein is an all star? The % of the goals that go in verses what a defensive does are ususally in his favor of the defenseman. I think we are a good defensive team but like I said that we need a solid defenseman so that Franson doesn't have to play the mins he has to has to play and that the Cube and O'Brien aren't overexposed. That's why I suggested breaking up Suter and Weber. Other coaches break up their top pair occasionally. Our lack of offense is our achilles heel but that also perpetuates our low goals against as well. Because we play the dump and chase that in itself slows the flow of the game down and work in the favor of the defensive effort. Like I said before I doubt that we will do anything far as trades goes. I expect us to tweak at best like we always do. Far as names go even if I name some names it doesn't matter because you don't know if they are available or at what price.

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01-18-2011, 11:16 AM
  #116
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That's why I suggested breaking up Suter and Weber. Other coaches break up their top pair occasionally.
Actually, if you were watching Sat night, you saw it happen. In the OT, Trotzy split up Suter and Weber to protect Sulzer and Franson. It was a good idea and effective.

That said, I still don't think it improves our team D under normal circumstances. Klein would pair with whom, Cube or SOB? The other with Weber, and Suter with Franson. So, basically, the 2nd pair doesn't really change, we potentially put our 2 physical players together on the same pair, and we have our best defensive Dman paired with a guy we're trying to limit minutes on D to time against grinders? Or our 3rd pair doesn't really change, cause really, going from SOB to Cube with Franny - not really gonna' make a bid difference, and we still pair our physical guys together?

Now, wanna' make a case for an upgrade of one of those 3 3rd liners - I'm with you 100%. Whether or not you wanna' think of Klein as a true asset, he sure as heck ain't the problem.

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01-18-2011, 12:00 PM
  #117
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Last years team was not as good as this years team defensively. Last year we gave up 2.66 goals per game, this year, 2.34, that's a pretty big improvement.

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01-18-2011, 12:58 PM
  #118
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Recap of this weekend from NHL Hot Stove:

http://nhlhotstove.com/preds-split-h...me-with-hawks/

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01-18-2011, 02:06 PM
  #119
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All of the talk about Klein and whether or not he has regressed is puzzling to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems obvious that Klein has not only improved dramatically from last season, but has comfortably settled into that number 3 slot. As was mentioned, he is on the top PK unit of a PK that is vastly superior to what we saw last season. You (roseyc) also can't qualify your critique of Klein's play this year by saying that it's still the regular season, and that we have always just competed instead of dominated in playoffs past. Klein has been with the team for one play off series, and that was last year. Our most competitive series to date.* And he's playing better this year than he did last. On a better defense. On a better PK. Playing more and tougher minutes. He seems to not only be accepting the challenge, but handling it quite well.

*clarification. I do want to win a play off series as bad as anyone here, but I'm also realistic. I expect to compete with but not dominate a team that is better than us.

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01-18-2011, 03:34 PM
  #120
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All of the talk about Klein and whether or not he has regressed is puzzling to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems obvious that Klein has not only improved dramatically from last season, but has comfortably settled into that number 3 slot. As was mentioned, he is on the top PK unit of a PK that is vastly superior to what we saw last season. You (roseyc) also can't qualify your critique of Klein's play this year by saying that it's still the regular season, and that we have always just competed instead of dominated in playoffs past. Klein has been with the team for one play off series, and that was last year. Our most competitive series to date.* And he's playing better this year than he did last. On a better defense. On a better PK. Playing more and tougher minutes. He seems to not only be accepting the challenge, but handling it quite well.

*clarification. I do want to win a play off series as bad as anyone here, but I'm also realistic. I expect to compete with but not dominate a team that is better than us.
Might also add, Klein is playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY less skilled partner, and still playing an improved game while covering for that partner.

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01-18-2011, 03:57 PM
  #121
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Might also add, Klein is playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY less skilled partner, and still playing an improved game while covering for that partner.
Funny thing about this is before I edited my post I had something along the lines of "it has to impress you that he can do this while playing with a partner who is positioned a pairing above his ability."

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01-18-2011, 06:13 PM
  #122
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The real solution is to find a number 4 guy to pair with Klein or to find a puck moving guy that can pair with Weber and then you have a combo of Suter/Klein and Weber/Other guy and use Bouillon, Franson and SOB as your bottom pair/permascratch position. If only Josi were ready for the NHL, this might be a possibility and would give us possibly two very good pairings.

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01-18-2011, 09:51 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
The real solution is to find a number 4 guy to pair with Klein or to find a puck moving guy that can pair with Weber and then you have a combo of Suter/Klein and Weber/Other guy and use Bouillon, Franson and SOB as your bottom pair/permascratch position. If only Josi were ready for the NHL, this might be a possibility and would give us possibly two very good pairings.
Hey we agree and your a pretty smart guy when it comes to knowledge of the game and it's fun to debate issues. Whether we agree on everything we are fans of the Preds. It is always a pleasure to read your post

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01-18-2011, 09:54 PM
  #124
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Last years team was not as good as this years team defensively. Last year we gave up 2.66 goals per game, this year, 2.34, that's a pretty big improvement.
So you didn't think Hamhuis was not that good for a whole season and you calculating on half of the season and then basing you anaylsis for the whole season.

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01-18-2011, 10:02 PM
  #125
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Actually, if you were watching Sat night, you saw it happen. In the OT, Trotzy split up Suter and Weber to protect Sulzer and Franson. It was a good idea and effective.

That said, I still don't think it improves our team D under normal circumstances. Klein would pair with whom, Cube or SOB? The other with Weber, and Suter with Franson. So, basically, the 2nd pair doesn't really change, we potentially put our 2 physical players together on the same pair, and we have our best defensive Dman paired with a guy we're trying to limit minutes on D to time against grinders? Or our 3rd pair doesn't really change, cause really, going from SOB to Cube with Franny - not really gonna' make a bid difference, and we still pair our physical guys together?

Now, wanna' make a case for an upgrade of one of those 3 3rd liners - I'm with you 100%. Whether or not you wanna' think of Klein as a true asset, he sure as heck ain't the problem.
I think that is the problem we don't have anyone who can pair with Weber other than Suter therefore is the reason for the start of this particular issue. We need another Veteran D

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