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Old
01-19-2011, 04:10 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Ugh...that's nearly as bad as the opening proposal.
How so? Dallas needs a NHL ready PMD! So unless a team is going to give us a top paring D man in exchange for Neal then we will stay with what is obviously working for us as of now. My point to Dallas being 7th overall in GAA and Philly being 10th is simply showing that what we have right now is working. So why should Dallas take this Bartulis character who likely would be in 3rd paring D man in a couple years for an already established forward who has a very favorable contract?

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01-19-2011, 04:12 PM
  #27
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Stop embarassing us Flyers fans.

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01-19-2011, 04:18 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Ugh...that's nearly as bad as the opening proposal.
What other metric would you use? It is definitely noteworthy that a team that is not defensively stacked as yours, and playing in the toughest division (competition, travel-wise, etc.) and (hands-down) the tougher conference, has a better GAA against than yours.

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01-19-2011, 04:21 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Who's underrating JVR?

Are you implying I am solely because I believe Neal is better?
No, I'm implying that I automatically assume that people don't know how well JVR is playing unless they watch the Flyers play. It has nothing to do with who you think is better.

If you're willing to prove me wrong, I'd be all ears as to how good you think JVR is right now. I'd be willing to bet that you are off the mark. It's nothing personal against you, but people are so quick to look at JVR's production while ignoring 1) his on-ice play, 2) his confidence right now, 3) his lack of ice-time, 4) his lack of powerplay time, 5) his two-way play, 6) his physical play, and 7) the fact that the Flyers are so deep that offensive players' numbers are naturally deflated (see: Richards, Carter, Briere, Giroux who will not hit PPG this season/may not even hit 70 because they have to share so much ice time).

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Originally Posted by Sony Eriksson View Post
Were you the one who also said that JVR is currently/always will be superior to Benn a while back?
Actually, no. I'm not. I don't know anyone who has ever said anything like that.

You probably do mean me as in I'm the one who was defending JVR in that thread. However, I'm never quite sure what people see when I type things. They create their own realities.

I never said JVR was better than Benn even now. I said is was pretty close though to the point where it was almost interchangeable. I also said that JVR had more potential than Benn, which he does.

Whatever those words mean to you is really your problem because I can't paint a picture anymore clearly for you than that.

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Originally Posted by Sony Eriksson View Post
JVR has done nothing to warrant such a return if a trade were to happen that included him. Neal on the other hand has increased his scoring each year in the NHL as is on pace to increase it again. So to look for a Neal+ package for JVR is lunacy.
This is exactly what I just said to Modo.

I challenge you to tell me just what JVR has done. Until you're able to I think you should take back any claims you have made about his value up to this point.

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Old
01-19-2011, 04:27 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sony Eriksson View Post
How so? Dallas needs a NHL ready PMD! So unless a team is going to give us a top paring D man in exchange for Neal then we will stay with what is obviously working for us as of now. My point to Dallas being 7th overall in GAA and Philly being 10th is simply showing that what we have right now is working. So why should Dallas take this Bartulis character who likely would be in 3rd paring D man in a couple years for an already established forward who has a very favorable contract?
I've said I don't like this proposal, it's a pretty bad one.
But you indicated that the Stars' D is better than the Flyers', that's what I wanted to criticize, not the fact that Neal is worth way more.

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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
What other metric would you use? It is definitely noteworthy that a team that is not defensively stacked as yours, and playing in the toughest division (competition, travel-wise, etc.) and (hands-down) the tougher conference, has a better GAA against than yours.
I would use the fact that no Stars Dman would crack the Flyers top5.

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01-19-2011, 04:29 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
I've said I don't like this proposal, it's a pretty bad one.
But you indicated that the Stars' D is better than the Flyers', that's what I wanted to criticize, not the fact that Neal is worth way more.



I would use the fact that no Stars Dman would crack the Flyers top5.
Robidas?

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Old
01-19-2011, 04:32 PM
  #32
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Robidas?
Might be better than Carle.
But Carle and Pronger is one awesome combo.
So, no.

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Old
01-19-2011, 04:37 PM
  #33
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I'd probably flip Neal for Coburn.

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01-19-2011, 04:41 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, I'm implying that I automatically assume that people don't know how well JVR is playing unless they watch the Flyers play. It has nothing to do with who you think is better.

If you're willing to prove me wrong, I'd be all ears as to how good you think JVR is right now. I'd be willing to bet that you are off the mark. It's nothing personal against you, but people are so quick to look at JVR's production while ignoring 1) his on-ice play, 2) his confidence right now, 3) his lack of ice-time, 4) his lack of powerplay time, 5) his two-way play, 6) his physical play, and 7) the fact that the Flyers are so deep that offensive players' numbers are naturally deflated (see: Richards, Carter, Briere, Giroux who will not hit PPG this season/may not even hit 70 because they have to share so much ice time).
No need to get defensive; no one in this thread is ripping on JVR, and I haven't seen any mistreatment of him in any other forum for that matter. He's a young player on a very stacked team who will only continue to get better.

I don't think anyone's holding any of those stats against him, least of all his confidence (which neither you, nor I, nor anyone else on this board can possibly measure). I'm not going to pretend I watch every Flyers game and that I know JVR like the back of my hand, so no I can't diagnose every aspect of his game.

There are few top-6's in the league that could go head to head with the Stars, but Philly's definitely one of them. I can't say whether JVR gets regular top-6 minutes on a stacked Philly offense. But I can say without a doubt that Neal's already a top-line forward in Dallas, has shown remarkable chemistry with Brad Richards, and thus further strengthens my original point that Neal > JVR right now.

Again, no one here is saying JVR isn't or won't be a skilled NHLer. If Dallas wasn't already so deep at LW, I'd love to see him in a Stars jersey. But regardless of what you could come up with in JVR's defense, Neal has been superior this season.

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Old
01-19-2011, 04:41 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaSteve View Post
I'd probably flip Neal for Coburn.
Eh... I guess I'd do it. It would definitely shore up the top 4. I'd even throw in Niskanen for Nodl or something.

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Old
01-19-2011, 04:48 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
I would use the fact that no Stars Dman would crack the Flyers top5.
That's not a fact. That's an OPINION....yours, to be precise!

Try understanding what the word METRIC means. I already said that your team has the more stacked defensive corps (read: higher paid) than ours, and STILL has a higher GAA than ours despite playing in one of the weaker divisions and unarguably the weaker conference. THAT...is a FACT!

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01-19-2011, 04:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
That's not a fact. That's an OPINION....yours, to be precise!

Try understanding what the word METRIC means. I already said that your team has the more stacked defensive corps (read: higher paid) than ours, and STILL has a higher GAA than ours despite playing in one of the weaker divisions and unarguably the weaker conference. THAT...is a FACT!
Hockey isn't a math test.

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01-19-2011, 05:00 PM
  #38
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Another case of a proposal asking for one teams quality, in expense of your teams ordinary quantitiy..

if you want Neal be prepared to give up something of value..

a 1st line goal scoring LW on a cheap contract in exchange for a pending UFA who wouldnt sign in Dallas, (and is no good) and a bottom pairing defenseman..no

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Old
01-19-2011, 05:02 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Hockey isn't a math test.

Right, because when I used the term METRIC here, I was referring to the "Metric system."

Kindly do your research lest you come across as a fool.

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01-19-2011, 05:03 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, I'm implying that I automatically assume that people don't know how well JVR is playing unless they watch the Flyers play. It has nothing to do with who you think is better.

If you're willing to prove me wrong, I'd be all ears as to how good you think JVR is right now. I'd be willing to bet that you are off the mark. It's nothing personal against you, but people are so quick to look at JVR's production while ignoring 1) his on-ice play, 2) his confidence right now, 3) his lack of ice-time, 4) his lack of powerplay time, 5) his two-way play, 6) his physical play, and 7) the fact that the Flyers are so deep that offensive players' numbers are naturally deflated (see: Richards, Carter, Briere, Giroux who will not hit PPG this season/may not even hit 70 because they have to share so much ice time).



Actually, no. I'm not. I don't know anyone who has ever said anything like that.

You probably do mean me as in I'm the one who was defending JVR in that thread. However, I'm never quite sure what people see when I type things. They create their own realities.

I never said JVR was better than Benn even now. I said is was pretty close though to the point where it was almost interchangeable. I also said that JVR had more potential than Benn, which he does.

Whatever those words mean to you is really your problem because I can't paint a picture anymore clearly for you than that.



This is exactly what I just said to Modo.

I challenge you to tell me just what JVR has done. Until you're able to I think you should take back any claims you have made about his value up to this point.
I challenge you to tell us why he has more value than Neal..

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Old
01-19-2011, 05:08 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
No need to get defensive; no one in this thread is ripping on JVR, and I haven't seen any mistreatment of him in any other forum for that matter. He's a young player on a very stacked team who will only continue to get better.

I don't think anyone's holding any of those stats against him, least of all his confidence (which neither you, nor I, nor anyone else on this board can possibly measure). I'm not going to pretend I watch every Flyers game and that I know JVR like the back of my hand, so no I can't diagnose every aspect of his game.
Please don't mistake this for me being defensive. I am not defensive, only point out some significant flaws.

While I admit from a Stars standpoint Neal should demand JVR+ from the Flyers. From a Flyers standpoint, JVR would demand Neal+. That's just the way the world works. I wouldn't necessarily put too much stock in it. Values are after all never flat nor static, only and always relative.

That said, do I think Neal is a better player now? Yes.
Do I think he will be the better player next year? Yes.
Do I think he will have a better career than JVR provided the health of both parties? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo View Post
There are few top-6's in the league that could go head to head with the Stars, but Philly's definitely one of them. I can't say whether JVR gets regular top-6 minutes on a stacked Philly offense. But I can say without a doubt that Neal's already a top-line forward in Dallas, has shown remarkable chemistry with Brad Richards, and thus further strengthens my original point that Neal > JVR right now.
Agreed.

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Modo;30318071]Again, no one here is saying JVR isn't or won't be a skilled NHLer. If Dallas wasn't already so deep at LW, I'd love to see him in a Stars jersey. But regardless of what you could come up with in JVR's defense, Neal has been superior this season.
No question, but when involving assets, not only is value completely relative, it is also not based entirely on the present.

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Old
01-19-2011, 05:09 PM
  #42
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Right, because when I used the term METRIC here, I was referring to the "Metric system."

Kindly do your research lest you come across as a fool.

GAA is influenced by far more than Dmen.
Not going to go into a pissing match over such a statement.

Flyers' D >>> Stars' D

That's all I'm saying.

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01-19-2011, 05:10 PM
  #43
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Terrible OP proposal. Makes 0 sense from the Stars' POV.

As for JVR (+?) for Neal (+?) is rather silly. Doesn't really make a lot of sense for either team. Personally I would do Neal straight up for JVR in terms of talent alone but it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint.

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01-19-2011, 05:11 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
I've said I don't like this proposal, it's a pretty bad one.
But you indicated that the Stars' D is better than the Flyers', that's what I wanted to criticize, not the fact that Neal is worth way more.



I would use the fact that no Stars Dman would crack the Flyers top5.
Do i think Dallas' D is playing above what should be expected? Yes i do! Does that translate to me saying Dallas' D is better than the Flyers D? Not at all. You are reading to much into that statement i made. I was simply defending the statement of the Flyer fan (i assume he is) saying "A 7th D in Philly is not a 7th D in Dallas. Let's not kid ourselves." So by that though process he is is saying that Dallas' D is not good and i provided stats to show his statement is false!

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01-19-2011, 05:14 PM
  #45
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I challenge you to tell us why he has more value to the Flyers than Neal..
Gladly.

1. He's younger than Neal by a bit.
2. Neal will get a significant raise after next season while JVR's should be moderate.
3. Neal is about a million more than JVR now if you include all of JVR's bonuses.
4. The Flyers need a player that fits JVR's mold more than Neal's.
5. JVR offers more offensive potential while still remaining competent defensively.
6. JVR's speed and creativity compliment Laviolette's system perfectly.
7. JVR has found his niche and is obviously well-liked in Philadelphia and by the organization. (You don't trade something you know works unless necessary.)

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01-19-2011, 05:15 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
GAA is influenced by far more than Dmen.
It is concomitant to overall defensive play (i.e. role of forwards), good goaltending, and strength of opposition too. I agree.

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Not going to go into a pissing match over such a statement.
You made the foolish smart-arsed attempt at the zinger, not I.


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Flyers' D >>> Stars' D

That's all I'm saying.
And yet, your GAA is higher than ours. That's all I'm saying.

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01-19-2011, 05:15 PM
  #47
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Terrible OP proposal. Makes 0 sense from the Stars' POV.

As for JVR (+?) for Neal (+?) is rather silly. Doesn't really make a lot of sense for either team. Personally I would do Neal straight up for JVR in terms of talent alone but it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint.
I applaud you for bringing logic to the discussion.

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01-19-2011, 05:16 PM
  #48
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carle zherdev carcillo for neal and niskanen???

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01-19-2011, 05:19 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Please don't mistake this for me being defensive. I am not defensive, only point out some significant flaws.

While I admit from a Stars standpoint Neal should demand JVR+ from the Flyers. From a Flyers standpoint, JVR would demand Neal+. That's just the way the world works. I wouldn't necessarily put too much stock in it. Values are after all never flat nor static, only and always relative.

That said, do I think Neal is a better player now? Yes.
Do I think he will be the better player next year? Yes.
Do I think he will have a better career than JVR provided the health of both parties? No.



Agreed.



No question, but when involving assets, not only is value completely relative, it is also not based entirely on the present.
It sure would be nice to see people stop valuing players possible potential and started looking at tangible, already established evidence in determining the value of a player in a trade.

I have little doubt that JVR won't turn into a great player in his career however Neal has already proved that he is among the younger top tier players.

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01-19-2011, 05:20 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by boodangleroo28 View Post
carle zherdev carcillo for neal and niskanen???
Ahahahahaha no.

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