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Parise is in the top 10 in my eyes, you can shift him around but there is no doubt he performs very well offensively(PPG player for last two years with one of the years he had 94 points).
I forgot about Malkin put him in front of Getzlaf.
Last edited by KovalchukR8: 01-19-2011 at 03:19 PM.
100% agree. Parise is getting way overestimated here. I would say he's top 10-20, as I would take every player you listed and a few others before him.
He's not getting overrated. There's only a small handful of forwards that a NHL GM would build their team around in front of Parise. He is very much a top ten forward in this league.
Goligoski makes me REALLY tempted to do this. He's exactly the kind of defenseman that New Jersey needs.
It would probably have to be Rolston though. Trading Parise means we lose his $3.125M in LTIR cap relief, AND add a net $5.5M+. in salary. Unless New Jersey throws in Clarkson and Zubrus, in which case New Jersey would need at least one more roster player coming back. Elias might be an option, but I doubt he waives his NMC, even to go to Pittsburgh. Besides, he still has value as a player so again the Pens would have to add.
I'm gonna get hated on for even concidering trading Malkin but I feel a deal based around this could benefit us.
Zubrus would be decent on our 3rd since Staal would become our #2 C.
The question would be to work it out with the cap and there's no way we'd take Rolston.
I'd be up for something around
Parise, Zubrus, 1st
for
Malkin, Goligoski, 2nd
Kesler never plays first line minutes. Kesler has half baked linemates that are constantly revolving so Parise has a better situation offensively. Parise is thus far the better offensive talent.
I personally think Kesler's offensive stats were inflated last season due to Vancouver's offensive explosion. His goal total remained the same, yet his assist total rose by 17 as the team around him went from 11th in the NHL in goals scored to 2nd. Vancouver scored 52 more goals than New Jersey last season, and 17 assists is a pretty significant variation.
First line minutes go against Parise here, since he has to go up against the other teams top defenders (re: Pronger, Chara, Markov, etc) every shift he's out on the ice, while the Sedins do all the heavy lifting up front and Kesler can prey on the other team's second pairing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedved1
Kesler has been the Selke finalist 2 years and running and will probably win it this year. Comparing the two defensively is a JOKE.
That's wonderful. Fact is Parise and Kesler have the same amount of Selke's.
I'm sure you don't know what GVT is, but it's a derived statistic that measures how much better a team is when a play is on the ice vs. when they aren't on the ice and are replaced by an average player. There's an offensive and defensive component to it. The defensive portion is measured in shots against. You can read more about it here.
In short, Parise's opponents had an average of 5.9 less shots per game when he was on the ice. Kesler's opponents had an average of 2.3 less shots per game when he was on the ice. In fact, both Sedins and Alex Burrows were better defensively last season than Kesler was and Samuelsson was in the ballpark too. There were over 100 forwards in the NHL that prevented more shots against per game than Ryan Kesler did. Maybe it's an effect of him playing better offensively (as noted above) that his defensive responsibilities slipped.
Selke voting doesn't surprise me, it's a reputation based award since there are not direct measures of defensive abilities. It's voted on by the media so it doesn't surprise me at all that someone playing in a Canadian market gets more hype than the NHL's retarded ginger stepchild. Regardless, Parise has been top 10 in Selke voting before so it's not like some cult Devils fans are making this up.
Travis Zajac is a much better comparison to Kesler than Parise is.
Notice how its all the devils fans trying to make these trades? If Parise is so good, why don't you just sign him.
I don't trade Doughty for Parise. Thats a total ripoff for the kings.
To be fair, its mostly fans of other squads that propose Parise trades, and Devils fans respond, for the most part, by saying he's not available.
If you really want to start a constructive conversation on Parise's value, you have to begin by stipulating whether he is willing to sign in New Jersey, at a reasonable average annual salary, for more than 3 years. If you assume he is willing to do that, the value of Parise is really high, and will likely turn off any potential suitors.
Alternatively, if you propose a trade for Zach under the assumption that he will not sign a friendly deal in NJ, you'll probably get a more balanced response from Devils fans. I've seen some good back-and-forth discussion of this nature between NJ and LA, and NJ and Boston fans in recent weeks.
As for a Doughty for Parise swap, I'm not so sure LA fans would be totally turned off by that deal. They have a hole at LW, while the Devils could use a stud blueliner - the deal makes sense, and is pretty close value-wise.
To be fair, its mostly fans of other squads that propose Parise trades, and Devils fans respond, for the most part, by saying he's not available.
If you really want to start a constructive conversation on Parise's value, you have to begin by stipulating whether he is willing to sign in New Jersey, at a reasonable average annual salary, for more than 3 years. If you assume he is willing to do that, the value of Parise is really high, and will likely turn off any potential suitors.
Alternatively, if you propose a trade for Zach under the assumption that he will not sign a friendly deal in NJ, you'll probably get a more balanced response from Devils fans. I've seen some good back-and-forth discussion of this nature between NJ and LA, and NJ and Boston fans in recent weeks.
As for a Doughty for Parise swap, I'm not so sure LA fans would be totally turned off by that deal. They have a hole at LW, while the Devils could use a stud blueliner - the deal makes sense, and is pretty close value-wise.
Parise will sign for no less than 6 mil and I bet 6.5 . Its just common sense. Every teams home fans claim 'hometown discount' for their players but its not really fair to the player.
To put a value on him nowadays you have to consider the contract as part of that value. Dont forget Parise needs a new contract.
Is Parise worth Ryan Kesler?
No way is a 6.5 mil dollar Parise worth a 5mil dollar Kesler.
Is a 5mil dollar Parise worth a 5mil dollar Kesler ? I argue no but Im a Canucks homer. Im sure you devils fans would argue the other way. I would respect that argument.
As far as Doughty goes, he still cheap but for how long? Consider this
Isn't Doughty 20 and Parise 26? That does make a difference. Also defensemen tend to take longer to develop and then last longer.
Doughty is going to get better and I think an 85 to 90 point Parise is pegging it about right.
IMHO This is ripoff for the Kings. It flatters Parise and the people who are devils fans, which you are one obviously.
Parise will sign for no less than 6 mil and I bet 6.5 . Its just common sense. Every teams home fans claim 'hometown discount' for their players but its not really fair to the player.
To put a value on him nowadays you have to consider the contract as part of that value. Dont forget Parise needs a new contract.
Is Parise worth Ryan Kesler?
No way is a 6.5 mil dollar Parise worth a 5mil dollar Kesler.
Is a 5mil dollar Parise worth a 5mil dollar Kesler ? I argue no but Im a Canucks homer. Im sure you devils fans would argue the other way. I would respect that argument.
As far as Doughty goes, he still cheap but for how long? Consider this
I really can't believe you think Kesler is better than Parise. I don't care if you're a homer, that's ridiculous. It's a consensus among everyone, including Canuck fans, that Kesler is better defensively (how much better if debatable), and will have (assumed) a cheaper contract. Parise offensive talent is miles above Kesler and he does it in a defensive system while facing top pairing defenseman. Kesler is a fine player and I love his game, but when people are arguing whether Parise is a top 10 or "just" a top 15 forward and Kesler is no where to be mentioned in the conversation, it's pretty clear who's the better player.
.....Enstrom, Bogosian, Kane+ from Atlanta?[/QUOTE]???????
would love to know what you just smoked to come up with that one not to mention the "+"...maybe add Buff or Ladd per chance, you know, just to sweeten it up a bit?
nearly our entire youth movement for one guy and a pick? Not knocking Parise but I really don't see ATL doing this - it would take way too long to replace everything that just walked out the door to be worth it....
next....
Now....if you meant Enstrom + OR Bogo + OR Kane + then I say NJ gets the short end - not enough for Parise + 1st
Last edited by Sheky Express: 01-19-2011 at 05:33 PM.
Reason: read it again in a different light...
Parise is in the top 10 in my eyes, you can shift him around but there is no doubt he performs very well offensively(PPG player for last two years with one of the years he had 94 points).
I forgot about Malkin put him in front of Getzlaf.
Kovalchuk is not better than Parise. Nor is he in the top 10.
I'd rather have the 40 goal/90 point player who plays great defense at a lower cap hit + a top 5 pick than a 35-40goal/110 point player who plays little defense at an 8.7 mil cap hit + a 25-30 pick.
A package like that would get you a great player, but it doesn't seem very viable. A trade of that magnitude would, in my opinion, have a very slim chance of happening. A straight up Parise for X swap is more likely. Perhaps for Malkin or Weber?
The Kings wouldn't pull the trigger on the Doughty + Schenn for Parise + potential first over all because that would set the franchise back. Considerably. When Doughty is on his game, like he was last year, he is absolutely a difference maker, and he is something else. While it is possible to draft another defenseman - Larsson - with that pick, you're still drafting a kid who doesn't have the same promise that Doughty does. Drew had the kind of season as a 19/20 year old that only Orr has had in recent memory. It might seem as though that's overhyping him, but it's true. He is the youngest defenseman since Orr to be nominated for the Norris, and already has a World Championship silver and a gold Olympic medal under his belt as a 21 year old. He is experiencing a Junior Jinx, and it is hurting the team.
Parise is enticing, but I think the best thing for the Devils franchise would be to re-sign him, and draft Larsson, if he is available at their slot. They already have guys like Urbom and Merrill, so it would be adding another gem to their solid group of young defenseman.
A package like that would get you a great player, but it doesn't seem very viable. A trade of that magnitude would, in my opinion, have a very slim chance of happening. A straight up Parise for X swap is more likely. Perhaps for Malkin or Weber?
The Kings wouldn't pull the trigger on the Doughty + Schenn for Parise + potential first over all because that would set the franchise back. Considerably. When Doughty is on his game, like he was last year, he is absolutely a difference maker, and he is something else. While it is possible to draft another defenseman - Larsson - with that pick, you're still drafting a kid who doesn't have the same promise that Doughty does. Drew had the kind of season as a 19/20 year old that only Orr has had in recent memory. It might seem as though that's overhyping him, but it's true. He is the youngest defenseman since Orr to be nominated for the Norris, and already has a World Championship silver and a gold Olympic medal under his belt as a 21 year old. He is experiencing a Junior Jinx, and it is hurting the team.
Parise is enticing, but I think the best thing for the Devils franchise would be to re-sign him, and draft Larsson, if he is available at their slot. They already have guys like Urbom and Merrill, so it would be adding another gem to their solid group of young defenseman.
I agree for the most part, but Doughty is no Orr. He has neither the speed nor scoring ability that Orr had (but he's the best of all time so it's not an insult think of Orr as Scott Niedermayer speed and skating +, with a scoring ability like Malkin +, no one compares today). No doubt he has perennial Norris potential but we still need a couple years to get a good read on him.
Last edited by BeastoftheEast85: 01-19-2011 at 08:13 PM.
I agree for the most part, but Doughty is no Orr. He has neither the speed nor scoring ability. No doubt he has perennial Norris potential but we still need a couple years to get a good read on him.
he put up nearly 60 points as a 20 year old...
im not saying hes Orr, at all. but come on. to say he doesnt have scoring ability is silly
not to mention the "+"...maybe add Buff or Ladd per chance, you know, just to sweeten it up a bit?
