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Jeff Schultz re-signs, four years @ $2.75M per

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01-18-2011, 12:23 PM
  #151
RandyHolt
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The thing about Schultz is this. He is on the long term developmen plan. What's the expected term to peak, about 10 years? It is with many defensemen, and certainly towards the higher end for those with his size and thus skating ability. I don't think he has peaked but suspect he is close. The problem to me is his progression is on a snails pace, compared to say Alzner, who is willing to attempt to change his game early and often. Schultz just really never changes. Good for him, he hit the jackpot. He now has even less incentive to change having joined the fat cat club.

He got 4 years, that's a lot. i would have preferred less term and money. Keep him hungry. I suspect George thinks he has more upside, like Norris ambitions say 5 years from now. But having committed to his long term development (assuming he is still developing), at times he may need to take a back seat for the betterment of the team that is on a serious cup run. On one right now while Ovi is at his peak. We sat Erskine for 7 because we faced a fast team. Ok, why not sit Sarge then. If his play sucks, Bruce needs to unafraid to scratch him sometimes.

If he is as good as George and Bruce think, that certainly will be reflected in his trade value. What would he fetch? Ignore what the homers think, what does the collective rest of the GM's think his worth is.


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01-18-2011, 12:31 PM
  #152
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I just don't see where any significant improvement can come in Schultz's game. The skating will never be there. He doesn't have the puck skills or the hand quickness to do anything offensively. He doesn't have the demeanor to offer a punishing physical game.

Maybe he gets a bit better positionally and along the boards? Maybe he adds a bit of consistency?

Even if he does those things, the ceiling isn't that high. His skating will never allow him to be anywhere close to elite, barring significant rule changes.

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01-18-2011, 12:35 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
If he is as good as George and Bruce think, that certainly will be reflected in his trade value. What would he fetch? Ignore what the homers think, what does the collective rest of the GM's think his worth is.
Obviously it doesn't mean much, considering the source, but a few Ottawa fans on the trade board proposed Perrault and Schultz for Fisher. But that's some pretty decent perceived value from somewhere else in the league.

And I'd likely do that trade.

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01-18-2011, 12:38 PM
  #154
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Chara with the hat trick last night. The defense rests.

Wait, an objection. Sarge rarely unleashes his slapper. If it is, its half power. Nevermind. Sustained.

I would swear he has an extra gear he doesnt even use. I have seen him haul ass a few times and my jaw almost dropped. I just don't see him giving his all. Maybe its just me being expecting too much, or him staying in control. But I want to see him do something with all his strength and effort. Only then can he take the next step, and overcome any skating deficiencies he has.

His trade value when +50 was probably his peak. I would trade him for a 2C if Poti was healthy. And maybe not healthy. I can't get a grasp of his worth and only through being told valid trade offers could I ever start to tell.


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01-18-2011, 12:49 PM
  #155
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Part of a players worth involves his contract. If it is a good value, he's worth more. If it is a poor value, even if he has NHL talent, he's worth less. With his contract and recent play, the reality is that Schultz probably has negative value.

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01-18-2011, 12:50 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
When Schultz is healthy, he's a solid #5/PK specialist.

Pros:
-Decent first pass
-Long reach
-Solid stickwork
-Decent positioning
-Good PKer

Cons:
-Painfully slow
-Provides nothing in the offensive zone
-Sub-par defensive anticipation
-No physical game to speak of
-No fire to his game

He's a player who's highs are never going to be very high, but who's lows are going to be pretty painful. Completely expendable, IMO, especially considering the Caps have two players (Alzner and Hannan) who play a similar type of game, but are better/more versatile.

This is pretty spot on IMO.....

55 is an average player....he was last season, he is this season. He is your run of the mill defender....shake an NHL tree and a few drop off. Ive been saying this for a couple years but some are mezmorized by some combination of his size, youth, stats from last season. There is nothing he does that would be considered first rate or top notch.

going forward, where will he improve? he can get marginally better at the things he is decent/good at now.....but he wont be developing a mean streak, he wont all of a sudden be a good skater or find some offensive skills. Without something seperating him from the average guys in the NHL....he is going to be average.

Green is a trainwreck....and im almost done getting into disagreements about it with people. After the Pens game (The one a few days before the Winter Calssic) people here were singing his praises....how he was "targeted and fought through it".....he stunk of course but because he scored 5 on 3 and then had a slick stickhanding move in OT....he must have played great. Fact is he gave Crosby a stonecold breakaway when they were down 1-0.....got called for the PS, and all in all was losing puck battles most of the day. There is a reason the Pens coach (and the rest of the NHL) targets Green......it works. But.....im just a Green basher I guess. It cant be because I dont feel good about a player on the ice for roughly half the game that loses way too many battles in his own end, makes risky and sometimes just awful choices with the puck, in all zones.....no, cant be that.

Green goes in the corner with average NHL players and far too often comes out puckless....watch other teams top defenders and see if that happens as much.

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01-18-2011, 01:00 PM
  #157
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Green is far from the perfect defender. That's why he needs a very strong aggressive partner that won't sit and watch him get worked over. I doubt we see it ever again, but if Hannan is paired with Green. Watch Hannan on the weakside. He moves right over and helps Green out. And Green sees it and feeds him the puck. I tend to think Sarge watches. He is hesistant to move that far over, he seems afraid to commit, because he appears afraid to get caught of position. Timid timmy. So when the going gets tough, Green is on an island. That is where his game gets into trouble. Green and his plus minus have also been the benefit of a great offensive system. A system that does and will flat out disappear in the playoffs. Like clockwork. We can blame goalie, it doesnt matter. But look at Green and Sarge's playoff stats.


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01-18-2011, 01:01 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
The thing about Schultz is this. He is on the long term developmen plan. What's the expected term to peak, about 10 years? It is with many defensemen, and certainly towards the higher end for those with his size and thus skating ability. I don't think he has peaked but suspect he is close. The problem to me is his progression is on a snails pace, compared to say Alzner, who is willing to attempt to change his game early and often. Schultz just really never changes. Good for him, he hit the jackpot. He now has even less incentive to change having joined the fat cat club.

He got 4 years, that's a lot. i would have preferred less term and money. Keep him hungry. I suspect George thinks he has more upside, like Norris ambitions say 5 years from now. But having committed to his long term development (assuming he is still developing), at times he may need to take a back seat for the betterment of the team that is on a serious cup run. On one right now while Ovi is at his peak. We sat Erskine for 7 because we faced a fast team. Ok, why not sit Sarge then. If his play sucks, Bruce needs to unafraid to scratch him sometimes.

If he is as good as George and Bruce think, that certainly will be reflected in his trade value. What would he fetch? Ignore what the homers think, what does the collective rest of the GM's think his worth is.
Chara bloomed around this time in his career so I hoped Schultz would improve this year. He's gone backwards. One obvious thing he could improve on is his strength and it hasn't improved in 4 years. He's not going anywhere, he's not getting better, his contract was a mistake. He'll be given a spot next year and will have no point to really push himself with his contract. My hope is that Orlov and P McNeil (or someone, anyone) will magically have amazing camps next year and force him down to Hershey where he belongs.

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01-18-2011, 01:11 PM
  #159
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I agree with much of what's being said about Green, Schultz and Poti. And this just has me thinking -- thank gods for Carlson and Alzner. Solid, talented, sturdy, mobile all-around guys, who we'll have the pleasure of watching for the next decade.

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01-18-2011, 01:38 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Green is far from the perfect defender. That's why he needs a very strong aggressive partner that won't sit and watch him get worked over. I doubt we see it ever again, but if Hannan is paired with Green. Watch Hannan on the weakside. He moves right over and helps Green out. And Green sees it and feeds him the puck. I tend to think Sarge watches. He is hesistant to move that far over, he seems afraid to commit, because he appears afraid to get caught of position. Timid timmy. So when the going gets tough, Green is on an island. That is where his game gets into trouble. Green and his plus minus have also been the benefit of a great offensive system. A system that does and will flat out disappear in the playoffs. Like clockwork. We can blame goalie, it doesnt matter. But look at Green and Sarge's playoff stats.
There is something fundamentally wrong when your highest paid defender, a player on the ice more than anyone else, needs a warm security blanket in order not to look lost

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01-18-2011, 06:17 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Green is far from the perfect defender. That's why he needs a very strong aggressive partner that won't sit and watch him get worked over. I doubt we see it ever again, but if Hannan is paired with Green. Watch Hannan on the weakside. He moves right over and helps Green out. And Green sees it and feeds him the puck. I tend to think Sarge watches. He is hesistant to move that far over, he seems afraid to commit, because he appears afraid to get caught of position. Timid timmy. So when the going gets tough, Green is on an island. That is where his game gets into trouble. Green and his plus minus have also been the benefit of a great offensive system. A system that does and will flat out disappear in the playoffs. Like clockwork. We can blame goalie, it doesnt matter. But look at Green and Sarge's playoff stats.
Maybe I am not understanding your scenario correctly but if Green is in his corner getting worked over I don't want his partner, regardless of who he is, going over to help out. That is the centerman's job and the winger on that side can come down low to help out also if need be but the other blueliner's job is to watch the front of the net.

Also I think you are making too much of Schultz's poor playoffs last year. I mean it was basically his first playoff series while it was Green's 4th. That's a big difference IMO.

And before breaking his thumb I though Schultz was playing pretty well. He was better this year than he was last year and better last year than he was the season before. He is obviously to me getting physically stronger and that was with an offseason dealing with mono. He is stronger on the boards and much better at ceiling guys off along the boards than he was a couple years ago. Of course he is never going to play the way so many want him to because of his size.

All that being said I do agree that Green and Hannan are a better pairing overall than Green and Schultz. I think a Schultz/Poti 3rd pairing could be great but they need some time playing together to get some chemistry.

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01-20-2011, 08:45 AM
  #162
RandyHolt
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There is something fundamentally wrong when your highest paid defender, a player on the ice more than anyone else, needs a warm security blanket in order not to look lost
You are an old vet. You know darn well that offensive defensemen usually need extra support in their own zone, at least until they find balance in their game. While they are still young and refining the art of defending, as Green is in the middle of doing. As he grows and learns, more often than not, his offense prowess offsets his defensive shortcomings.

The problem that I see in the playoffs, is that his offense is going away. He gets targeted, and probably even injured, and cant shoot (score). His injuries may be what is requiring a stud vet especially since Bruce refuses to sit Green, ever, no matter his condition. That is on Bruce, not a fundamental problem with Green. Regardless, we have a guy that lives by his offense with no offense getting a ton of TOI. As we buy time for him to eek out a goal, we cannot let him and his pair be a minus. Hence, I want to see the vet defensive defensemen at his side, not our playoff noob. Those two crucial goals Green was on for, he got no help from his defensemen. Nor from a forward.

Millhaus, if the weakside defensemen comes over and consistently makes the play, I want him over there and doing it until it fails. Do you really want MP or MJ over there bailing out Green? I want Hannan. Defensemen have to grab the bull by the horns in their own zone. Be assertive, take charge. Those are not Schultz's strengths. Bruce changed the weakside coverage, not me. But I like it.


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01-20-2011, 09:47 AM
  #163
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Millhaus, if the weakside defensemen comes over and consistently makes the play, I want him over there and doing it until it fails. Do you really want MP or MJ over there bailing out Green? I want Hannan. Defensemen have to grab the bull by the horns in their own zone. Be assertive, take charge. Those are not Schultz's strengths. Bruce changed the weakside coverage, not me. But I like it.
And the tradeoff is Johansson or Perreault guarding the front of the net. And if the puck gets reversed behind the net or into the other corner Johansson or Perreault are now the the first guy in battling for that puck. Hannan can't be 2 places at once.

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01-20-2011, 10:28 AM
  #164
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Green is far from the perfect defender. That's why he needs a very strong aggressive partner that won't sit and watch him get worked over. I doubt we see it ever again, but if Hannan is paired with Green. Watch Hannan on the weakside. He moves right over and helps Green out. And Green sees it and feeds him the puck. I tend to think Sarge watches. He is hesistant to move that far over, he seems afraid to commit, because he appears afraid to get caught of position. Timid timmy. So when the going gets tough, Green is on an island. That is where his game gets into trouble. Green and his plus minus have also been the benefit of a great offensive system. A system that does and will flat out disappear in the playoffs. Like clockwork. We can blame goalie, it doesnt matter. But look at Green and Sarge's playoff stats.
I'm willing to bet Green won't even be here two years from now. Carlson will make him superfluous.

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01-20-2011, 10:54 AM
  #165
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And the tradeoff is Johansson or Perreault guarding the front of the net. And if the puck gets reversed behind the net or into the other corner Johansson or Perreault are now the the first guy in battling for that puck. Hannan can't be 2 places at once.
The mission is dependent on Hannan succeeding. In the limited times I saw him roll over, the puck never made it to crease. You can stand around flat footed and get scored on, or you can get scored on getting in someone's face. I would like us to be aggressive. You know, the Bruce way.

When our weakside D rolls over and it results in a goal on a mismatch in front of the net, let me know. Are you sure it is easier for MP or MJ to work along boards than it is for them in front of the net? I tend to doubt it. But whatever, its a coin flip. Pick your poison.

I like our best defensive defensemen to act when he sees his buddy getting worked over. If your best DDman is standing around playing zone, what good is he? I can play zone. Hannan does his best work, paw in your face. Schultz does his best work staying in his zone.

What is best for Green? I saw what I prefer. I have seen enough of Green on his island in the playoffs and thats why I want change. I want 52's partner aggressively even picking off forwards trying to come and nail Green on the forecheck. Being very aggressive, no hesitation, no fear, no tentative plays. I hear that Hannan is a master of getting away with slight interference. Alzner is a lot like Hannan. But Sarge doesnt ever try anything like that, his game is staying in his safety zone. It works for him. But my theory is Hannans game works better for Green than Sarge's does. And possibly Alzner's as well.


Last edited by RandyHolt: 01-20-2011 at 11:09 AM. Reason: lots more to add
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01-20-2011, 11:52 AM
  #166
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But my theory is Hannans game works better for Green than Sarge's does. And possibly Alzner's as well.
I agree with you. I like Hannan as Green's partner more than Schultz also. I am simply commenting on how I want my team to handle a puck in one defenseman's corner regardless of who that defenseman may be.

I don't personally feel the Caps centermen are very good at reading what the weakside defensemen are doing and adjusting what they are doing accordingly. I think they find themselves in no man's land a lot when the weakside guy comes over to support his partner and sure as long as the defensemen win the battle things are good but if they don't the front of the net is completely unguarded and goals like a couple of Gaborik's last night are scored.

As I said at the start of this conversation if your centerman are drilled well enough to get to the front of the net to take the weakside defenseman's place fairly quickly then this can work but I don't think the Caps' centermen are drilled well enough in that or at least take too long to make that decision.

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01-20-2011, 12:11 PM
  #167
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MH - yeah it seems most conversations find a circuitious route evolving to discuss our centerman. Even discussing defensmen. In Bruce's system, old system, whatever, the center is very responsible shading up high always looking to cover aggressive D play, and our C's bears a lot of defensive zone responsibility. They are basically defensemen a few times a game, at least pretrap.

MP is seemingly ready for a demotion. Coupled with being largely a one scoring line team (which is obviously getting shut down) the need for a stud two way 2C only grows.

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