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Kaberle to NYR

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01-20-2011, 02:35 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
If you read my previous post, and the last part of the post you quoted, I stated he was not a superstar offensive D-man. He isn't. He is a very good d-man, yes, but he is not in the elite/superstar offensive d-man catagory.
How is he not? The guy gets over 50 points yearly with no help. How can he not be a top offensive guy?

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01-20-2011, 02:36 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
He has one goal so far this season. Currently sits in 12th overall in d-man scoring.

Yes, superstar jumps off the page when I look at his offensive stats.

Goal scoring matters? He's a d-man.

And he's playing on a bad team and has no help.

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01-20-2011, 02:38 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Boyle is not good defensively at all.

And Campbell isn't close to Kaberle.
I didn't say Boyle was a stay at home defenseman, I said he was better in his own end then Kaberle. He also has a far better shot, and at least some semblence of a Physical game.

Campbell is far better in his own end, has a better shot, and again, is far more physical then Kaberle.

You Leafs fans love throwing around the fact that Kaberle is 3rd in points among defenseman since the lockout, so this should be of interest to you.

When it comes to points per game among defensemen:

Dan Boyle is ranked 3rd, .72 PPG
Tomas Kaberle is ranked 8th, .68 PPG
Brian Campbell is ranked 12th, .59PPG

Again both are at or above his level on the offensive side of the puck, but bring more aside from that. Something Kaberle doesn't. If you folks would stop spending $200 a ticket to see a the Leafs play every night and instead invest that money in center ice, you might know more about other players aside from the ones on your team.

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01-20-2011, 02:40 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
I didn't say Boyle was a stay at home defenseman, I said he was better in his own end then Kaberle. He also has a far better shot, and at least some semblence of a Physical game.

Campbell is far better in his own end, has a better shot, and again, is far more physical then Kaberle.

You Leafs fans love throwing around the fact that Kaberle is 3rd in points among defenseman since the lockout, so this should be of interest to you.

When it comes to points per game among defensemen:

Dan Boyle is ranked 3rd, .72 PPG
Tomas Kaberle is ranked 8th, .68 PPGBrian Campbell is ranked 12th, .59PPG

Again both are at or above his level on the offensive side of the puck, but bring more aside from that. Something Kaberle doesn't. If you folks would stop spending $200 a ticket to see a crap team play every night and instead invest that money in center ice, you might know more about other players aside from the ones on your team.
so what your saying is kaberle is one of the top ten offensive d-men in the NHL

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01-20-2011, 02:40 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
No one seems to be struggling here outside of you. And yes, both bring the PMD aspect Kaberle brings and both are a similar level in that regard. However both are also more physical, and better in their own end. So marginal nothing, both are better dmen.

And no one cares what kind of value Kaberle has to the Leafs. You're in a trade proposal thread in case you missed it, so whats trying to be established is Kaberle's value to another team.

Visnovsky is a very fair comparable.
Actually, a lot of people seem to be struggling. Both bring the PMD aspect to the game, and both are more physical, but neither is smarter than Kaberle. It's one element of his game that gets totally underrated because smarts never show up on a highligh reel. His defensive play is extremely underrated.

People should care what his value ot the Leafs is -- because unless Toronto gets a package that is more valuable to them than Kaberle, he won't be traded.

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01-20-2011, 02:45 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
I didn't say Boyle was a stay at home defenseman, I said he was better in his own end then Kaberle. He also has a far better shot, and at least some semblence of a Physical game.

Campbell is far better in his own end, has a better shot, and again, is far more physical then Kaberle.

You Leafs fans love throwing around the fact that Kaberle is 3rd in points among defenseman since the lockout, so this should be of interest to you.

When it comes to points per game among defensemen:

Dan Boyle is ranked 3rd, .72 PPG
Tomas Kaberle is ranked 8th, .68 PPG
Brian Campbell is ranked 12th, .59PPG

Again both are at or above his level on the offensive side of the puck, but bring more aside from that. Something Kaberle doesn't. If you folks would stop spending $200 a ticket to see a the Leafs play every night and instead invest that money in center ice, you might know more about other players aside from the ones on your team.
Campbell sucks in his own end. No one thought he was good defensively until he joined a stacked team. Put Kaberle on a better team and his numbers will get better.

And Boyle is really struggling defensively this season. He's -10.

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01-20-2011, 02:50 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
so what your saying is kaberle is one of the top ten offensive d-men in the NHL
First, go to NHL.com
Second, go to the stats section
Third, sort by 2010-2011 season, defensemen
Fourth, click on the points column to sort highest to lowest.
Fifth, answer your own question.

In case you didn't get the answer on your own, it's no. 12th overall though, so close enough.

However, don't sort by goals, Kaberle won't show up.
Don't sort by hits, Kaberle won't show up.
If you sort by plus minus, choose lowest to highest, he'll show up then.
Don't sort by shorthanded time on ice, he won't show up.
In fact, don't sort by TOI/G either, he won't show up.

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01-20-2011, 02:51 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Campbell sucks in his own end.
Absolutely false. You talk about a player being under appreciated in Kaberle, while Campbell is just as underrated.

Quote:
No one thought he was good defensively until he joined a stacked team. Put Kaberle on a better team and his numbers will get better.
People always say this - it's not an automatic thing. Everyone thought Ponikarovsky would light it up in Pittsburgh. Well, he was awful. Sometimes players benefit from playing on bad teams, because they get overplayed in comparison to how good they actually are. Not saying Kaberle is one of those players, but he's a 50 point guy, wherever he goes.

Quote:
And Boyle is really struggling defensively this season. He's -10.
The Sharks defense is AHL-caliber. Boyle is the only reason it's respectable. This goes to show, yet again, that +/- is a horrible stat when it comes to judging defensive ability.

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01-20-2011, 02:52 PM
  #284
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How does kaberle have value to the leafs other than being an asset they can sell? If he leaves are they going to be even worse than they are now? What would that matter at this point?

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01-20-2011, 02:52 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Campbell sucks in his own end. No one thought he was good defensively until he joined a stacked team. Put Kaberle on a better team and his numbers will get better.

And Boyle is really struggling defensively this season. He's -10.
Weren't u big on never using +/-?? Maybe I'm wrong, dont feel like going back and checking.

That might have been zeke who said Wideman was playing well and was a -16 or something, and +/- was a useless stat.

Ah well, carry on.

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01-20-2011, 02:53 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
First, go to NHL.com
Second, go to the stats section
Third, sort by 2010-2011 season, defensemen
Fourth, click on the points column to sort highest to lowest.
Fifth, answer your own question.

In case you didn't get the answer on your own, it's no. 12th overall though, so close enough.

However, don't sort by goals, Kaberle won't show up.
Don't sort by hits, Kaberle won't show up.
If you sort by plus minus, choose lowest to highest, he'll show up then.
Don't sort by shorthanded time on ice, he won't show up.
In fact, don't sort by TOI/G either, he won't show up.
When a guy is one of the top offensive defensemen for a decade, it's time to give the guy credit. You're likely considering guys who have a couple of more points than Kaberle this year for the first time ever, as better offensive d-man.

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01-20-2011, 02:53 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
First, go to NHL.com
Second, go to the stats section
Third, sort by 2010-2011 season, defensemen
Fourth, click on the points column to sort highest to lowest.
Fifth, answer your own question.

In case you didn't get the answer on your own, it's no. 12th overall though, so close enough.

However, don't sort by goals, Kaberle won't show up.
Don't sort by hits, Kaberle won't show up.
If you sort by plus minus, choose lowest to highest, he'll show up then.
Don't sort by shorthanded time on ice, he won't show up.
In fact, don't sort by TOI/G either, he won't show up.
so what your saying is kaberle is one of the best offensive d-men in the NHL

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01-20-2011, 03:01 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by youngbloodhockey View Post
Trading Kaberle as a 2 month rental will not bring back anything substantial, then you have to hope your bird flies home which might never happen.

I'd rather keep him in the city he loves and use those couple months to re-sign him.

How's that for reasoning?
Kaberle will not be a Leaf next year 100%. Kaberle has been polite and said all the politically correct things, but he is as good as gone, you can take that to the bank.

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01-20-2011, 03:04 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
When a guy is one of the top offensive defensemen for a decade, it's time to give the guy credit. You're likely considering guys who have a couple of more points than Kaberle this year for the first time ever, as better offensive d-man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
so what your saying is kaberle is one of the best offensive d-men in the NHL
Do you consider goal scoring offense? Do you think this is a strength of Kaberles? Do you think he can be subpar in this area and still be a top offensive defenseman?

Would you rather have a 30 point scoring defender that causes 10 goals against per season, or a 50 point scoring defender that causes 30 goals against a season?

It's no where near as black and white as you make it out to be. When you only really excel in one aspect of the game and are sub par in a whole host of others, you aren't a superstar. You may be one of the most skilled passing defenders out there, but you leave much to be desired.

I'd say he's the Marc Savard of defense, but Marc Savard is used shorthanded and scores some goals (or used to before he got his bell rung). Regardless, he's no Dan Boyle or Brian Campbell. Incredible playmaker from the backend, but that's about it.

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01-20-2011, 03:04 PM
  #290
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If you look at Kaberle and just Kaberle to define his value you're mistaken as a Leaf's fan. You need to look at the entire trade market as a whole. Is McCabe in play? Is Pitkaken? Is anyone in Vancouver? Montreal already acquired Wisniewski, Washington acquired Hannan, how many teams are looking to add a player like Kaberle and how much are they willing to pay at the deadline. This determines how much TML can get. This year, IMO the supply of defencemen looks like its going to be high and the number of buyers doesn't seem to be so high...SJ? Dallas? NY?

Burke didn't learn from Don Waddel, He's waited too long and He's going to run into the same problem, a low return. For that, you get a crappy offer or you can get nothing on July 1st, that's the reality of it.

If Drury alone doesn't get it done, I'd add in Hagelin as he'd fit into a Burke type player. He's coming out of college, smart two way, Hobey Baker nominee and is most ready to step right into the NHL. He's also very expendable by the Rangers.

Drury, Hagelin, 4th 2011
For
Kaberle, 2nd 2012

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Grachev + 2nd intrigues me though. Can anyone say how NHL ready he is?
He's really not ready yet. His size and speed dominated in Jrs but in the AHL he hasn't dominated yet, he hasn't shown a high level of compete. IMO he never had to work until he hit the pros, he was always bigger and faster and easily dominated the Jr ranks.


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01-20-2011, 03:05 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
How does kaberle have value to the leafs other than being an asset they can sell? If he leaves are they going to be even worse than they are now? What would that matter at this point?
He's repeatedly stated that he wants to stay and Toronto desparately needs him.

The chances of that being a lie are the same chances that he will refuse to waive his NTC.

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01-20-2011, 03:14 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Absolutely false. You talk about a player being under appreciated in Kaberle, while Campbell is just as underrated.



People always say this - it's not an automatic thing. Everyone thought Ponikarovsky would light it up in Pittsburgh. Well, he was awful. Sometimes players benefit from playing on bad teams, because they get overplayed in comparison to how good they actually are. Not saying Kaberle is one of those players, but he's a 50 point guy, wherever he goes.



The Sharks defense is AHL-caliber. Boyle is the only reason it's respectable. This goes to show, yet again, that +/- is a horrible stat when it comes to judging defensive ability.
But Kaberle has already done it. He had better numbers on better teams.

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01-20-2011, 03:16 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Weren't u big on never using +/-?? Maybe I'm wrong, dont feel like going back and checking.

That might have been zeke who said Wideman was playing well and was a -16 or something, and +/- was a useless stat.

Ah well, carry on.
I'm not the biggest fan of it. I'm more of a believer of it being a useless stats when you're on a bad team or great team.

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01-20-2011, 03:20 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Do you consider goal scoring offense? Do you think this is a strength of Kaberles? Do you think he can be subpar in this area and still be a top offensive defenseman?

Would you rather have a 30 point scoring defender that causes 10 goals against per season, or a 50 point scoring defender that causes 30 goals against a season?

It's no where near as black and white as you make it out to be. When you only really excel in one aspect of the game and are sub par in a whole host of others, you aren't a superstar. You may be one of the most skilled passing defenders out there, but you leave much to be desired.

I'd say he's the Marc Savard of defense, but Marc Savard is used shorthanded and scores some goals (or used to before he got his bell rung). Regardless, he's no Dan Boyle or Brian Campbell. Incredible playmaker from the backend, but that's about it.
personally, i like boyle better but thats not the point. throughout kaberle's career he has never been a big goal scorer or a big shooter for that matter. he has always been the slick skater , with one of the best outlet passes in the league and a playmaker on the PP. not every player on a team is a big hitter,PK,fighter ect... , they all have there strong points and weaknesses but in the case of kaberle he has proved for years his strong point in playmaking and passes out of the zone. how can anyone who has honestly watched him play all these years not say he his one of the top 10 offensive d-men in the league. he has 29 points this year and you can't tell me that if he played on a team with better offensive forwards he wouldn't have closer to 35 points. if he wasn't a leaf he would be viewed as he should but thats the leaf haters for you

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01-20-2011, 03:32 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
personally, i like boyle better but thats not the point. throughout kaberle's career he has never been a big goal scorer or a big shooter for that matter. he has always been the slick skater , with one of the best outlet passes in the league and a playmaker on the PP. not every player on a team is a big hitter,PK,fighter ect... , they all have there strong points and weaknesses but in the case of kaberle he has proved for years his strong point in playmaking and passes out of the zone. how can anyone who has honestly watched him play all these years not say he his one of the top 10 offensive d-men in the league. he has 29 points this year and you can't tell me that if he played on a team with better offensive forwards he wouldn't have closer to 35 points. if he wasn't a leaf he would be viewed as he should but thats the leaf haters for you
So, what you're saying is you don't think goal scoring should be considered when determining who the top offensive defensemen are?

You don't think defense matters when calling a defenseman a superstar?

Yes, all players have strengths and weaknesses. Superstars and high end players are usually very good in multiple facets of the game however. Tomas Kaberle is not. He's an incredible passer, and consistently in the top 20 in points among defenseman because of how many assists he racks up, but he's the poster child for the one dimensional NHL'er.

I appreciate his value to the Leafs, and I agree that he's worth more to them then likely any other team. Leafs fans just need to properly understand that. If he's made available, you aren't going to get your value.

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01-20-2011, 03:43 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
So, what you're saying is you don't think goal scoring should be considered when determining who the top offensive defensemen are?

You don't think defense matters when calling a defenseman a superstar?

Yes, all players have strengths and weaknesses. Superstars and high end players are usually very good in multiple facets of the game however. Tomas Kaberle is not. He's an incredible passer, and consistently in the top 20 in points among defenseman because of how many assists he racks up, but he's the poster child for the one dimensional NHL'er.

I appreciate his value to the Leafs, and I agree that he's worth more to them then likely any other team. Leafs fans just need to properly understand that. If he's made available, you aren't going to get your value.
he's undervalued on hf boards. i'm not saying he would get 1st , 2nd , player , prospect in a trade but he won't get the 2nd and a mid prospect like so many say not that i'm saying you said that but hfboards is full of leaf haters ,but it isn't unreasonable to say he could get a late 1st and a player from a team that wants to add to there PP specialist

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01-20-2011, 03:45 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
So a superstar offensive defenseman will be traded for a third rounder?
he certainly could be.

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01-20-2011, 03:48 PM
  #298
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I didn't realise the Rangers were in such great shape themselves!
oh please, don't start comparing the Rangers with Toronto

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01-20-2011, 03:54 PM
  #299
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he certainly could be.
We see fringe players traded for second rounders nowadays.

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01-20-2011, 03:55 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
So, what you're saying is you don't think goal scoring should be considered when determining who the top offensive defensemen are?

You don't think defense matters when calling a defenseman a superstar?

Yes, all players have strengths and weaknesses. Superstars and high end players are usually very good in multiple facets of the game however. Tomas Kaberle is not. He's an incredible passer, and consistently in the top 20 in points among defenseman because of how many assists he racks up, but he's the poster child for the one dimensional NHL'er.

I appreciate his value to the Leafs, and I agree that he's worth more to them then likely any other team. Leafs fans just need to properly understand that. If he's made available, you aren't going to get your value.
I clearly said offensive d-man superstar.

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