This is so symptomatic of the delusions and denial that infect the fanbase and the front office.
Delusion - That Joensuu will ever be a quality NHL player. This was painfully obvious before this year. Ditto for Colliton. It's ridiculous.
Denial - That Dipietro can ever reliably carry the load again. I understand what the organization has to play out the contract to hope for a resolution. Fine. But the folly of the Roloson trade is now proven. It's ridiculous.
We're back to MacDonald and Danis. Or it's worse, I don't know. It's pathetic. And this was foreseeable.
Any non-visiting fan who pays for a ticket at this point (i.e. excluding season ticket holders) should have their heads checked.
Funny they send him down one day bring him back up the next unless there's some weird CBA thing that has to be done from time to time...
Seems like they wanted to give Koskinen the day off and Poulin had played on Monday, so they sent Lawson down for a day.
This is the type of thing a professional organization would have informed the fans of at the time.
Also seems like the team will still carry three goalies. So, they trade Roloson in part to get Poulin out of a three goalie rotation in the AHL and put him in a three goalie rotation in the NHL.
Joensuu is a whopping 22/23 yrs old. If you could tell he had no future, then you, my friend, should become an NHL scout.
Nonsense. The guy has mediocre AHL production for an offensive player. His speed isn't below-average, it's terrible. If he were a physical player, he'd have a shot. But he's not and he doesn't.
Bertuzzi had maturity issues, and high end talent. Joensuu couldn't be more dissimilar.
Also, every time I hear the 'big forwards take longer to develop' stuff, I say:
Isbister
Isbister
Isbister
Delusions aren't just false beliefs. Their naggingly persistent false beliefs.
Joensuu is a whopping 22/23 yrs old. If you could tell he had no future, then you, my friend, should become an NHL scout.
This is the same impatience and knee jerk reactions that got Bertuzzi traded.
Not comparing the two, but power forwards (read: large, not playing style necessarily) DO take longer to develop.
You are correct - You shouldn't give up on a 22/23 year old. However Joensuu has not shown that he can be a productive NHL player. In fact I think he's regressed from when we saw him last year. His hands are stone and he's less physical than he was. I mean if you're not going to score can you at least hit something (see - Martin, Matt)?
Truthfully I don't Joensuu is going to be a regular NHL'er, but I'm fine giving him some more time to prove me wrong. However that proving ground should be in the AHL.
Seems like they wanted to give Koskinen the day off and Poulin had played on Monday, so they sent Lawson down for a day.
This is the type of thing a professional organization would have informed the fans of at the time.
Also seems like the team will still carry three goalies. So, they trade Roloson in part to get Poulin out of a three goalie rotation in the AHL and put him in a three goalie rotation in the NHL.
You are correct - You shouldn't give up on a 22/23 year old. However Joensuu has not shown that he can be a productive NHL player. In fact I think he's regressed from when we saw him last year. His hands are stone and he's less physical than he was. I mean if you're not going to score can you at least hit something (see - Martin, Matt)?
Truthfully I don't Joensuu is going to be a regular NHL'er, but I'm fine giving him some more time to prove me wrong. However that proving ground should be in the AHL.
This I agree with.
Dan-o, please don't tell me what my beliefs are, because I can assure you, you have no idea.
Dan-o, please don't tell me what my beliefs are, because I can assure you, you have no idea.
I believe that when people assert something, they believe what they assert. I claimed that Joensuu has no chance to be an NHL contributor, you disagreed. So I believe that you believe he can be. A stretch, eh?
And I think the disagreement, about something which is so painfully obvious, is evidence of the overall delusion seemingly suffered by much of our beleaguered fanbase.
Don't take my word for it. What does it mean that an impending RFA is sent down in favor of a retread? It surely means he's not going to see a 1-way, and it's doubtful he'll see any contract offer at all. Even if he did, why would he continue to toil in the AHL for piddly change when he can play for similar bucks back home, or more somewhere else?
I believe that when people assert something, they believe what they assert. I claimed that Joensuu has no chance to be an NHL contributor, you disagreed. So I believe that you believe he can be. A stretch, eh?
And I think the disagreement, about something which is so painfully obvious, is evidence of the overall delusion seemingly suffered by much of our beleaguered fanbase.
Don't take my word for it. What does it mean that an impending RFA is sent down in favor of a retread? It surely means he's not going to see a 1-way, and it's doubtful he'll see any contract offer at all. Even if he did, why would he continue to toil in the AHL for piddly change when he can play for similar bucks back home, or more somewhere else?
Or whatever, take it personally if you want.
Cheers,
Dan-o
Like I said, you have no idea what my beliefs are, because you made assumptions about what I was asserting. Whether Joensuu is NHL material or not is besides the point. You made claims that you've known for quite some time that he was useless. My retort was you should be an NHL scout if that was so painfully obvious to you.
My belief, not the one you want me to have to prove your point, is that player development is far from an exact science and saying you could tell based off of his stats in the AHL is laughable. For every Isbister you throw at me, I could throw countless others that took longer to develop.
Battered fan syndrome. Too many undervalue/underestimate our own prospects, assuming they will amount to nothing.
Joensuu is a whopping 22/23 yrs old. If you could tell he had no future, then you, my friend, should become an NHL scout.
This is the same impatience and knee jerk reactions that got Bertuzzi traded.
Not comparing the two, but power forwards (read: large, not playing style necessarily) DO take longer to develop.
A very underrated attribute of a great GM is WHO they invest their development time on. Was it wise to invest all that time in Tambellini? Schremp? Moulson earned his way on the team with great play in camp and as a pro. Parenteau somehow impressed someone,God-only-knows how, to be "given" a top line role that is cemented, regardless of Okposo coming back.
I'm not saying Snow's been particularly good or bad, just saying that an organization really needs to pick their spots and determine who they believe will/can get better and who should be cut loose.
So are Figren, DiBo and Joensuu worthy of extensions? or are they better off signing guys like Gregoire/Lee/Cizikas/Kabanov/Petrov to turn pro and start their AHL develpoment? Or more waiver pickups?
Denial - That Dipietro can ever reliably carry the load again. I understand what the organization has to play out the contract to hope for a resolution. Fine. But the folly of the Roloson trade is now proven. It's ridiculous.
Yeah what a folly, we might have finished 3rd last instead of 2nd or heaven forbid first if we kept Roloson.
A very underrated attribute of a great GM is WHO they invest their development time on. Was it wise to invest all that time in Tambellini? Schremp? Moulson earned his way on the team with great play in camp and as a pro. Parenteau somehow impressed someone,God-only-knows how, to be "given" a top line role that is cemented, regardless of Okposo coming back.
Well, let's see how Okposo plays on the ice. It's gonna be a while until he's back in shape. Parenteau has at least showed a modicum of chemistry with the other two and is currently the guy who carries the puck in the zone the most.
But I agree wholeheartedly with the top sentence, although if a kid is a first rounder or coming off of a sign-worthy junior/college career, then we're automatically talking about a 3 year ELC that just about ANY GM is gonna sign said kid to. The question is, is it worth it for the Burke's of the world who invest a good amount of money into college or junior or European UFAs.
Snow doesn't really do that. Hillen has been the big exception.
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So are Figren, DiBo and Joensuu worthy of extensions? or are they better off signing guys like Gregoire/Lee/Cizikas/Kabanov/Petrov to turn pro and start their AHL develpoment? Or more waiver pickups?
The latter should/will likely all be signed. Figgie and Dibo have another year and I think they'll likely be outta here unless Figren can somehow turn that skating into a solid, solid defensive role.
Joensuu is the question.
If you ask me, I'd be on the phone with Burke right now seeing if I couldn't swap him straight up for German Marcel Mueller.
Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 01-20-2011 at 06:25 AM.
Joensuu is a whopping 22/23 yrs old. If you could tell he had no future, then you, my friend, should become an NHL scout.
This is the same impatience and knee jerk reactions that got Bertuzzi traded.
Not comparing the two, but power forwards (read: large, not playing style necessarily) DO take longer to develop.
It was obvious last season to many of us that JJ sucked and did not belong. Yes he is big nut, he is not a power forward. He does not used his body, does not have a good shot, and is not a good skater. The only reason he got a shot is because we suck any other team he would still be in the AHL.
Yeah what a folly, we might have finished 3rd last instead of 2nd or heaven forbid first if we kept Roloson.
That's not the point. The point is that they wouldn't have had to rush a prospect after less than one season's professional hockey experience into the NHL if they would have kept Roloson. This organization can't get out of it's own way and this is a perfect example of the ineptitude of player management that has been going on for what seems like forever.
But I agree wholeheartedly with the top sentence, although if a kid is a first rounder or coming off of a sign-worthy junior/college career, then we're automatically talking about a 3 year ELC that just about ANY GM is gonna sign said kid to. The question is, is it worth it for the Burke's of the world who invest a good amount of money into college or junior or European UFAs.
Snow doesn't really do that. Hillen has been the big exception.
The whole college free agent buzz is so overdone. The vast majority of these guys become average/fringe NHL players at best, with the odd exception. In many cases, it's the equivalent of an extra 5th or 6th round pick in terms of NHL potential. Because they are typically older, more physically developed, they appear closer to NHL ready (Gilroy and Bozak most recently) but they also have far less upside. (Christian Hanson, Brayden Irwin)
I don't care much for the college free agents. I agree with you about Snow being a bit selective and not investing too much in that lottery. I'd say waivers (especially when you're talent-starved like the NYI) is better than college free agents! I'd equate Grabner and Schremp to the best college free agents you can find.
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Joensuu is the question.
If you ask me, I'd be on the phone with Burke right now seeing if I couldn't swap him straight up for German Marcel Mueller.
Marcel Mueller reminds me of David Ullstrom (although Ullstrom is much younger). Both big smooth centers who have had some success in Europe, struggling somewhat in their adjustment to North American culture and hockey (to varying degrees, from what I've seen and read)
I watched Mueller in the AHL and he is a lot more talented than his numbers indicate. I have heard that he's struggling with the adjustment, on and off the ice, but that he has as much talent as any Leaf prospect (whatever that means, they have an awful prospect pool!)
Whether I'd swap him for Joensuu, not sure. I don't have much faith in either being impact players but I like Mueller's skating and hockey sense far more than Joensuu's.
I expect/hope for one of Niederreiter/Petrov/Ullstrom to make the NYI next year. All three of those bring elements of something that Joensuu cannot - so i don't really see a future for JJ with the NYI. I'd probably offer him another contract, maybe 1 more year, 2way, just to see if he can elevate his offensive game because I cannot see him as a 3rd/4th line player at all. I'd much rather have Martin in that role.
My belief, not the one you want me to have to prove your point, is that player development is far from an exact science and saying you could tell based off of his stats in the AHL is laughable. For every Isbister you throw at me, I could throw countless others that took longer to develop.
No, I could tell by the fact that he wasn't merely behind the play, the play lapped him. Add that to a lack of AHL production, and it's a pretty solid indicator. I mean, the fact that this is arguable is a joke. He's very likely blown his last chance for another contract.
Yeah what a folly, we might have finished 3rd last instead of 2nd or heaven forbid first if we kept Roloson.
No, it's the difference between the players knowing that they have a capable netminder likely to be in position, at the very least, and having a sinking feeling whenever the puck moves the other way.
Maybe the experts on the mysteries of player development can explain how that's a good thing.
Most said Tambellini wasn't worthy of another contract, destined for Europe. Then the real experts, from the top team in the league nonetheless, found a spot for him on their 2nd line.
If we had more talent surrounding some of these guys, we may not be so quick to write them off. With that, I'm done arguing with those on the board that can never be wrong.
Most said Tambellini wasn't worthy of another contract, destined for Europe. Then the real experts, from the top team in the league nonetheless, found a spot for him on their 2nd line.
If we had more talent surrounding some of these guys, we may not be so quick to write them off. With that, I'm done arguing with those on the board that can never be wrong.
If we had more talent, Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Comeau.....they'd be the guys on the seond and third line (save for Tavares) and doing better.
Joensuu wouldn't have gotten as much icetime as he has.
Tambellini might have cracked the lineup, maybe having success, as well.
But we won't get that talent on ice or in coaching roles, so we debate whether AHL fodder will ever make it.
Well, I say Joensuu would have a chance at an NHL career if we were better as a whole. He would have been developed better in many farm systems, not given two plus years of Overspeed to stall his NHL game, given dreks of prospects because the big team takes the best ones out of necessity.....meh.
Most said Tambellini wasn't worthy of another contract, destined for Europe. Then the real experts, from the top team in the league nonetheless, found a spot for him on their 2nd line.
If we had more talent surrounding some of these guys, we may not be so quick to write them off. With that, I'm done arguing with those on the board that can never be wrong.
Did you watch the game against the Nucks? If not go to their board, he is already annoying them and it sounds like its the same old invinsibilli.
I'd say waivers (especially when you're talent-starved like the NYI) is better than college free agents! I'd equate Grabner and Schremp to the best college free agents you can find.
Waivers would appear to be the better route to go, especially when it comes to former first rounders being waived.
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I watched Mueller in the AHL and he is a lot more talented than his numbers indicate. I have heard that he's struggling with the adjustment, on and off the ice, but that he has as much talent as any Leaf prospect (whatever that means, they have an awful prospect pool!)
I watched him a lot the past few years in Germany. Heck, I've even played inline hockey against him - almost took out 4 teeth with an unnecessary high sticking incident - but what's interesting about him is that he's raw and his development on the European scene came quickly and under fire.
I felt it was good that he was signed and I knew he'd need some time to get used to things in NA.
Seeing Burke around the arena in Cologne, I had a feeling we'd see the Leafs in on the signing of some German, Dane or maybe some other exotic player after the WC.
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Whether I'd swap him for Joensuu, not sure. I don't have much faith in either being impact players but I like Mueller's skating and hockey sense far more than Joensuu's.
I dunno know if Burke would do it. His scouts would have to like Joensuu, for whatever reason.
Mueller had a reportedly poor camp and then only had 3 points in his first 17 AHL games. Then he put up 14 in 15 games and got called up. He's learning on the job now and he's fast enough for his size, a size we could really use. I'd rather have him lining up on line 4 with Martin and Konopka. He's got a lot of potential for more and is signed for another season. He's no Philipp Gogulla.
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I expect/hope for one of Niederreiter/Petrov/Ullstrom to make the NYI next year. All three of those bring elements of something that Joensuu cannot - so i don't really see a future for JJ with the NYI. I'd probably offer him another contract, maybe 1 more year, 2way, just to see if he can elevate his offensive game because I cannot see him as a 3rd/4th line player at all. I'd much rather have Martin in that role.
My bet is Niederreiter is here next season.
Ullstrom probably gets a long look in the last year of his ELC. He's doing fine on the farm now and would be scoring more if he wasn't playing with ECHL retreads every night. I believe he's an NHLer over the long run. A Pahlsson type, perhaps?
Petrov is of course another issue, but I have no problem waiting it out on him. Either he comes over at the age of 22-23 or not.
The move to another club was great, but he's not exactly tearing things apart and all reports are that he's highly inconsistent. He could just as easily be that inconsistent in the AHL.
Like Kabanov, he's a possibly golden egg lieing in the grass next to the prospect basket. We're damned to wait it out - but it'll be all the sweeter if the kid is a player.
Did you watch the game against the Nucks? If not go to their board he is already annoying them and it sounds its the same old invinsibilli.
Tambellini's hardly a core player on VCR. I don't expect him to be any difference maker and probably won't play in the playoffs, assuming Van is a "buyer" at the deadline.
Let's not confuse a strong couple of weeks with becoming the next Martin St.Louis or Marc Savard.
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
Mueller had a reportedly poor camp and then only had 3 points in his first 17 AHL games. Then he put up 14 in 15 games and got called up. He's learning on the job now and he's fast enough for his size, a size we could really use. I'd rather have him lining up on line 4 with Martin and Konopka. He's got a lot of potential for more and is signed for another season. He's no Philipp Gogulla.
.
Dallas Eakins spoke very highly of Mueller with his size, skating and hockey sense but also talked about how raw he was - he spoke of him much like he would a 20 year old 1st year pro.
And he has gotten much better and more productive recently.
Watching both Mueller and Kadri in the same game, you'd never guess one was 7th overall and the other was scoured out of the depths of European hockey. (I know Kadri's just 19 but Mueller was by far the better player - despite Kadri's decent AHL stats)
Most said Tambellini wasn't worthy of another contract, destined for Europe. Then the real experts, from the top team in the league nonetheless, found a spot for him on their 2nd line.
If we had more talent surrounding some of these guys, we may not be so quick to write them off. With that, I'm done arguing with those on the board that can never be wrong.
can't have it both ways.
If we had more talent around Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen then you'd never have room to "audition" Tambellini, Grabner, Schremp or even Moulson.
Comeau would have to have 2 solid AHL seasons before he gets a sniff of the NHL.
Maybe Bailey stays in junior longer.
And this board wouldn't be praying for Kabanov to score a hat-trick or Anders Lee to graduate - but would be discussing "should the Isles deal Lee for Jovanovski for the playoff run!"
A PLAN!
