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Kaberle to NYR

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Old
01-20-2011, 03:59 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
We see fringe players traded for second rounders nowadays.
i'm just saying theres a chance. weve seen what Gagne got. even someone like Kovalchuk (insert beating dead horse comment here) on the Waffle Leafs hes more valued, not that he's crap everywhere else but i could see him going somewhere and not producing much of anything other than a headache because a team gave up a top prospect or high draft pick for him.

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01-20-2011, 04:01 PM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I clearly said offensive d-man superstar.
Unless you mean the type of superstar that licks trees, I fail to see your point. "Superstars" aren't only good at one thing.

And sorry, I think most would agree "offensive defenseman superstars" should have more then one goal racked up this season. A one goal pace leaves much to be desired.

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01-20-2011, 04:07 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Unless you mean the type of superstar that licks trees, I fail to see your point. "Superstars" aren't only good at one thing.

And sorry, I think most would agree "offensive defenseman superstars" should have more then one goal racked up this season. A one goal pace leaves much to be desired.
The idea that Kaberle is horrible defensively is ridiculous. He's a career +26 on a terrible team the last 7 years.

This is like when Mccabe was named the worst d-man in the league defensively and all that talk stopped the minute he got traded.

Dan Boyle has not been good defensively in his career.

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01-20-2011, 04:07 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Unless you mean the type of superstar that licks trees, I fail to see your point. "Superstars" aren't only good at one thing.

And sorry, I think most would agree "offensive defenseman superstars" should have more then one goal racked up this season. A one goal pace leaves much to be desired.
he sets up goals. only 3 times has he broke 10 goals. it's the playmaking ability that is elite.

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01-20-2011, 04:08 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagrcantakeyou View Post
i'm just saying theres a chance. weve seen what Gagne got. even someone like Kovalchuk (insert beating dead horse comment here) on the Waffle Leafs hes more valued, not that he's crap everywhere else but i could see him going somewhere and not producing much of anything other than a headache because a team gave up a top prospect or high draft pick for him.
Gagne missed so much time last season. HE isn't like Kaberle at all. Besides Gagne would only agree to be traded to Tampa.

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01-20-2011, 04:09 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
he sets up goals. only 3 times has he broke 10 goals. it's the playmaking ability that is elite.
yea but the point he's making i think is that "superstars" aren't only good at one thing. that one thing being "setting up goals"

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01-20-2011, 04:11 PM
  #307
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[QUOTE=jagrcantakeyou;30339643]i'm just saying theres a chance. weve seen what Gagne got. even someone like Kovalchuk (insert beating dead horse comment here) on the Waffle Leafs hes more valued, not that he's crap everywhere else but i could see him going somewhere and not producing much of anything other than a headache because a team gave up a top prospect or high draft pick for him.[/QUOTE


pick 20 to 30 in the draft is not unreasonable in a weak draft class after about pick 10.

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01-20-2011, 04:37 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The idea that Kaberle is horrible defensively is ridiculous. He's a career +26 on a terrible team the last 7 years.

This is like when Mccabe was named the worst d-man in the league defensively and all that talk stopped the minute he got traded.

Dan Boyle has not been good defensively in his career.
Why are you ignoring the post you quoted, and arguing something we discussed earlier again?

Again, do you think an "offensive defenseman superstar" would only have one goal at the 45 game mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
he sets up goals. only 3 times has he broke 10 goals. it's the playmaking ability that is elite.
I know very well what Kaberle is good at, and I'm in agreement with you that the playmaking ability is elite. That doesn't make him elite however as there are too many other aspects of his game where he is average or even below average.

If it makes you feel better I value Marc Savard a lot less then many of my fellow Bruins fans for this exact reason.

That said, I see no issue with your predicted return of a 20th to 30th overall pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagrcantakeyou View Post
yea but the point he's making i think is that "superstars" aren't only good at one thing. that one thing being "setting up goals"
Exactly.

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01-20-2011, 05:14 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagrcantakeyou View Post
yea but the point he's making i think is that "superstars" aren't only good at one thing. that one thing being "setting up goals"
When you talking about a player being an offensive superstar, then it means he should put up star numbers for consecutive years. Check.

Again, Kaberle is 3rd in point post lockout. He is on pace for about 55 points withno help. He has 7 seasons (it'll be 8 soon) of 40+ points and 3 seasons of 50+ points including a 67 point season.

Dan Boyle is older and has inferior stats in fact.

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01-20-2011, 05:37 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
When you talking about a player being an offensive superstar, then it means he should put up star numbers for consecutive years. Check.

Again, Kaberle is 3rd in point post lockout. He is on pace for about 55 points withno help. He has 7 seasons (it'll be 8 soon) of 40+ points and 3 seasons of 50+ points including a 67 point season.

Dan Boyle is older and has inferior stats in fact.
i wasn't talking about Boyle at all. but since you brought him up, he can at least score. i understand that this season he hasn't scored a whole bunch but he's still scored 4X more than Kaberle. Kaberle is a good defenseman in terms of setting up goals and skating but scoring and defending isn't his strong points. if you're a superstar defenseman whos mediocre in your own end but you put up 15 goals and 50-60 points a season you can still be a superstar, if you score 1 goal in 45 games but is the best shutdown d-man on your team you can still be a superstar. however, imo, 1 goal in 45 games and mediocre to ok in your own end as a d-man, (you can still be an elite set up guy) isn't enough to qualify you as a "superstar".

i think if burke approached another GM and said "i got an elite superstar defenseman here so i want a 1st round pick and one of your top prospects" the phone would get hung up. then again this is all my opinion, maybe other GMs would throw their goodies at burke for the chance to get him but i would say it's not likely.

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01-20-2011, 05:44 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Rangers have no need for Orr at this point.

Trading Boyle at this point would be a mistake. This season might just be a flash in the pan, but he's second in goals so far this season on a team that has had issues scoring at several points over the coarse of this season.

Something like Gilroy, Vtank or Grachev, WAS 2nd in 2011, and a conditional 2nd in 2012 if he re-signs.
"..no need for Orr at this point." Disagree. If Boog goes, he fills a gap inexpensively and makes it easier to move Avery if we wish.

I'd rather keep Boyle.
But if you want Kaberle this is the middle ground between nothing and too much.

In a vacuum if no one else upped the price, sure you could wind up paying less.
I would expect that if Kab agrees to a move, all things being equal, something like ballpark minimum of Boyle is the roughly top offer from any team. Ergo, NYR has to match or stand pat.

Not so fast to flip some higher assets.
We see now w/Dubi out that Grachev, and his accelerated development, is important. ..


Last edited by bernmeister: 01-20-2011 at 05:45 PM. Reason: typo correction
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Old
01-20-2011, 05:45 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
When you talking about a player being an offensive superstar, then it means he should put up star numbers for consecutive years. Check.

Again, Kaberle is 3rd in point post lockout. He is on pace for about 55 points withno help. He has 7 seasons (it'll be 8 soon) of 40+ points and 3 seasons of 50+ points including a 67 point season.

Dan Boyle is older and has inferior stats in fact.
and with all due respect my dude, how does Boyle have inferior stats?

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01-20-2011, 06:17 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagrcantakeyou View Post
i wasn't talking about Boyle at all. but since you brought him up, he can at least score. i understand that this season he hasn't scored a whole bunch but he's still scored 4X more than Kaberle. Kaberle is a good defenseman in terms of setting up goals and skating but scoring and defending isn't his strong points. if you're a superstar defenseman whos mediocre in your own end but you put up 15 goals and 50-60 points a season you can still be a superstar, if you score 1 goal in 45 games but is the best shutdown d-man on your team you can still be a superstar. however, imo, 1 goal in 45 games and mediocre to ok in your own end as a d-man, (you can still be an elite set up guy) isn't enough to qualify you as a "superstar".

i think if burke approached another GM and said "i got an elite superstar defenseman here so i want a 1st round pick and one of your top prospects" the phone would get hung up. then again this is all my opinion, maybe other GMs would throw their goodies at burke for the chance to get him but i would say it's not likely.
Why do assists not count in your world?

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01-20-2011, 06:57 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Why do assists not count in your world?
they do, but doesnt make you a superstar like most leaf fans make him out to be.

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01-20-2011, 08:27 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by jagrcantakeyou View Post
they do, but doesnt make you a superstar like most leaf fans make him out to be.
He's a elite offensive star d-man. One of the very best.

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01-20-2011, 08:45 PM
  #316
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On Kaberle's passing game:
Go to 3:40 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKWo7EK_W4g


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01-21-2011, 01:44 PM
  #317
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i guess that Toronto and Burke wants Gilroy and Boyle or maybe prospect Grachev for Kaberle. Is that too much, NO!

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01-21-2011, 02:00 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by jagrcantakeyou View Post
they do, but doesnt make you a superstar like most leaf fans make him out to be.
You're right, Kaberle wasn't voted in 4 times as an NHL all star for his silly assists/play making abilities.

They only time assists don't count as much is when people are trying to make baseless claims on the internet because in the real world players make millions upon millions of dollars for possessing such talents.

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01-21-2011, 02:04 PM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonni View Post
i guess that Toronto and Burke wants Gilroy and Boyle or maybe prospect Grachev for Kaberle. Is that too much, NO!
I wouldn't move Boyle for Kaberle straight up right now. Rangers aren't going to move valuable assets for a rental.

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01-21-2011, 02:05 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by youngbloodhockey View Post
You're right, Kaberle wasn't voted in 4 times as an NHL all star for his silly assists/play making abilities.

They only time assists don't count as much is when people are trying to make baseless claims on the internet because in the real world players make millions upon millions of dollars for possessing such talents.
In most cases the NHL makes a point to include one player from every team in the NHL all star game, and realistically for quite some time he was the only viable option from the Leafs. Now he's not, and now he doesn't get in.

NHL all-star selections are a joke.

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01-21-2011, 02:16 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
In most cases the NHL makes a point to include one player from every team in the NHL all star game, and realistically for quite some time he was the only viable option from the Leafs. Now he's not, and now he doesn't get in.

NHL all-star selections are a joke.
Bullocks, thats like saying Kaberle only made the Olympic team because Czechoslovakia doesn't have a lot of other really good hockey players.

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01-21-2011, 02:19 PM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonni View Post
i guess that Toronto and Burke wants Gilroy and Boyle or maybe prospect Grachev for Kaberle. Is that too much, NO!
YES! Boyle is unavailable, especially for a rental. You won't get Boyle for Kaberle straight up from Sather.

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01-21-2011, 03:38 PM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
So a superstar offensive defenseman will be traded for a third rounder?
2nd rounder + some mid prospect

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01-21-2011, 04:01 PM
  #324
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So we've established Kaberle isn't for sale, since all I've seen is trash thrown our way for him. You won't see any Leaf fans complaining about Schenn keeping his 50pt+ partner. He's knocking on some high profile Leafs defensemans doors for alltime points, so that should be neat to watch.

You have to atleast get something back with the chance of equaling Kaberle's point totals on forward, and "starting with a 2nd" isn't where that's likely to happen.

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01-21-2011, 04:09 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
In most cases the NHL makes a point to include one player from every team in the NHL all star game, and realistically for quite some time he was the only viable option from the Leafs. Now he's not, and now he doesn't get in.

NHL all-star selections are a joke.
That doesn't mean Kaberle didn't deserve to be there. He was and still is one of the top puckmoving defenceman in the league. The only reason he's not in the All-Star game this year is because the NHL isn't going to take 2 players from a horrible team (I believe there's only 42 all star spots, leaving 12 multiple selections), and Kessel is a much more marketable player.

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