HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

French help (need help again, Post #102)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-20-2011, 02:13 PM
  #76
Not The One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montréal, Qc.
Posts: 1,369
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
If that's all you're taking away from his posts, I can see how you can be offended by his choice of words. If you read the rest, you'll see he's essentially right

It really boils down to your definition of "Quebecois". If you associate Quebecois to "le francais soutenu" (refined French spoken in Quebec) of people like Bernard Derome and Charles Tisseyre, then the differences with written French (which is the same everywhere) are minimal (mostly the accent)

If however your definition of Quebecois is "les tetes a claques", then he's right, it's mostly useful in Quebec. To claim/think otherwise is naive
"Québécois" is at least as homogeneous as the french spoken in France is. Listen to the accent in Paris, then listen to french in Marseilles, Corsica, Strasbourg, Calais, etc. Same language, different local idioms,influences and pronounciation. To specifically single out Quebec french is pretty idiotic. Try to understand some of the younger french teenagers and tell me their accent is any better than ours.

And if les Têtes à Claques are anybody's idea of what the french spoken here is, then I might as well pick the characters of the Beverley Hillbillies as representatives for American english.

Not The One is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 02:30 PM
  #77
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Same for me. Thanks.
Just a heads up, I already have a basic understanding of how to speak french. Of course, I don't have an accent so I sound stupid, but whatever. I can usually understand it a bit better, so would you guys reccommend just reading through a french english dictionary and trying to put sentences together while at work?

One Man Rock Band is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 02:52 PM
  #78
Forsead
Registered User
 
Forsead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Québec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,228
vCash: 500
French from France is as different to International French than Quebecois french is in fact about all people are butchering the language if you compare it to international french, but I think the belgian are the ones that are talking it the nearest from what it should be.

The difference are mainly oral, when I write in french everybody from France would understand what I want to say. The accents are very different in Quebec we talk slowly if you compare to French, we say less words to say the same things, use some invented words, use less english words, have different expression, we swear alot better and finally seem to have way more testotesrone in how we talk.

Forsead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 02:56 PM
  #79
Paul Dipietro
Registered User
 
Paul Dipietro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 715
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
French from France is as different to International French than Quebecois french is in fact about all people are butchering the language if you compare it to international french, but I think the belgian are the ones that are talking it the nearest from what it should be.

The difference are mainly oral, when I write in french everybody from France would understand what I want to say. The accents are very different in Quebec we talk slowly if you compare to French, we say less words to say the same things, use some invented words, use less english words, have different expression, we swear alot better and finally seem to have way more testotesrone in how we talk.
At least you're being objective...

Paul Dipietro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 03:07 PM
  #80
Paul Dipietro
Registered User
 
Paul Dipietro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 715
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
"Québécois" is at least as homogeneous as the french spoken in France is. Listen to the accent in Paris, then listen to french in Marseilles, Corsica, Strasbourg, Calais, etc. Same language, different local idioms,influences and pronounciation. To specifically single out Quebec french is pretty idiotic. Try to understand some of the younger french teenagers and tell me their accent is any better than ours.

And if les Têtes à Claques are anybody's idea of what the french spoken here is, then I might as well pick the characters of the Beverley Hillbillies as representatives for American english.
Since you're going by city, how would you describe "Montreal-Quebecois" French? You can give me a show or a Quebec celebrity that best represents the French spoken in Montreal

P.S. Keep in mind that I was born and raised here and went to school in French

Paul Dipietro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 05:00 PM
  #81
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,611
vCash: 500
Here is something I wrote up. Let me know any corrections. Thank you.

"Les Canadiens de Montréal ont gagné contre les Flames de Calgary, 5-4, hier soir au Centre Bell. Le numéro 76, P.K. Subban, a marqué 1 but et 1 aides dans la match. Andrei Kostitsyn, Lars Eller, Michael Cammalleri, et Jeff Halpern ont marqué aussi pour les Canadiens."

PS. When I say "1 but" should it be "1 but" or "un but"? Thanks.

One Man Rock Band is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 06:14 PM
  #82
Loner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Here is something I wrote up. Let me know any corrections. Thank you.

"Les Canadiens de Montréal ont gagné contre les Flames de Calgary, 5-4, hier soir au Centre Bell. Le numéro 76, P.K. Subban, a marqué 1 but et 1 aides dans la match. Andrei Kostitsyn, Lars Eller, Michael Cammalleri, et Jeff Halpern ont marqué aussi pour les Canadiens."

PS. When I say "1 but" should it be "1 but" or "un but"? Thanks.
"un but et une aide" (without the s).

"Andrei Kostitsyn, Lars Eller, Michael Cammalleri et Jeff Halpern" No comma on last item of an emumeration.

"Le numéro 76 P.K. Subban a marqué un but et obtenu une aide dans le match." You can remove all commas in this sentence and "marqué 1 but et 1 aides" sound strange since it didn't score an assist.

I would write the first sentence as "Les Canadiens de Montréal ont gagné 5-4 contre les Flames de Calgary hier soir au Centre Bell." it flow better that way.

Overall this is very good if french is not your main language.

---

Saying that Québec french is not french is totally wrong, dialect exist in all language and like someone say the french spoken in France is different depending on region, specific Quebec words is part of the slang the same way that Parisian has their own slang. Some of our expression like "moé" and "toé" is actually based on old french.

A fun fact is that the french spoken in Québec was unified before the french spoken in France, even now the french spoken in France's region Nord-pas-de-calais sound as far from international french that the Québec one.

"In any event, according to contemporary sources, the Canadians were all speaking French natively by the end of the 17th century, long before France itself outside its large urban centers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Quebec_French


Last edited by Loner: 01-20-2011 at 06:26 PM.
Loner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 09:17 PM
  #83
torero
Registered User
 
torero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Border of lake Leman
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 3,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
French from France is as different to International French than Quebecois french is in fact about all people are butchering the language if you compare it to international french, but I think the belgian are the ones that are talking it the nearest from what it should be.

The difference are mainly oral, when I write in french everybody from France would understand what I want to say. The accents are very different in Quebec we talk slowly if you compare to French, we say less words to say the same things, use some invented words, use less english words, have different expression, we swear alot better and finally seem to have way more testotesrone in how we talk.
1) Quebecois still butchers it a bit more than the others ! Yet it is charming ... but it is a carnage !

2) About swear words and testosterone : could we say that your sense of diplomaty got dilluted ?

torero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 09:28 PM
  #84
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loner View Post
"un but et une aide" (without the s).

"Andrei Kostitsyn, Lars Eller, Michael Cammalleri et Jeff Halpern" No comma on last item of an emumeration.

"Le numéro 76 P.K. Subban a marqué un but et obtenu une aide dans le match." You can remove all commas in this sentence and "marqué 1 but et 1 aides" sound strange since it didn't score an assist.

I would write the first sentence as "Les Canadiens de Montréal ont gagné 5-4 contre les Flames de Calgary hier soir au Centre Bell." it flow better that way.

Overall this is very good if french is not your main language.
Thank you so much for the help.

One question, what would you say for "gets an assist then" a marqué un but et "___" une aide"

Thanks again. And yeah, I'm just starting to re-learn French as of yesterday. I took Immersion for 4-years in public school, but stopped using it about 10 years ago and never learnt/continued with any since.


One Man Rock Band is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 09:32 PM
  #85
torero
Registered User
 
torero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Border of lake Leman
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 3,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Here is something I wrote up. Let me know any corrections. Thank you.

"Les Canadiens de Montréal ont gagné contre les Flames de Calgary, 5-4, hier soir au Centre Bell. Le numéro 76, P.K. Subban, a marqué 1 but et 1 aides dans la match. Andrei Kostitsyn, Lars Eller, Michael Cammalleri, et Jeff Halpern ont marqué aussi pour les Canadiens."

PS. When I say "1 but" should it be "1 but" or "un but"? Thanks.
i would put :

ont aussi marqué pour les Canadiens.
inverse the "marqué" and the "aussi"

++

The first part ... I would start with :
Hier soir au centre Bell ... and then ... les Canadiens de Montreal ont gagné ...
Unlike the first exemple (marqué and aussi), this one is not wrong ... but it doesn't sound good ! Properly constructed is the way i say it.

torero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 09:38 PM
  #86
Reiher
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
i hate it when people say ' ice hockey'. 'hockey sur glace' sounds just as stupid. It's hockey.
you'd be surprised at how many times I've had to clarify. Maybe it's a western thing seeing as I grew up in Vancouver. I just get the impression a lot of people play roller and floor hockey out here.

But I don't disagree.

Reiher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-20-2011, 10:31 PM
  #87
Forsead
Registered User
 
Forsead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Québec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
1) Quebecois still butchers it a bit more than the others ! Yet it is charming ... but it is a carnage !

2) About swear words and testosterone : could we say that your sense of diplomaty got dilluted ?
Having a society base on lumberjack ancestors do that

Well I think the biggest difference is europeans use more english word where we use more invented semi english franglish whatever words , so that's why it's more butchered.

About swearing well we got alot more diversity in our swearing than others french speaking and even english speakers. And on the testoteronce (btw it's no mean to be disrescpectfull, it go with our accent that is more harsh, also in general Quebec french is articulate slower and our swearing aswell) well I would say that alot would agree on this, even french from France

Forsead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 04:01 AM
  #88
torero
Registered User
 
torero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Border of lake Leman
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 3,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Having a society base on lumberjack ancestors do that

Well I think the biggest difference is europeans use more english word where we use more invented semi english franglish whatever words , so that's why it's more butchered.

About swearing well we got alot more diversity in our swearing than others french speaking and even english speakers. And on the testoteronce (btw it's no mean to be disrescpectfull, it go with our accent that is more harsh, also in general Quebec french is articulate slower and our swearing aswell) well I would say that alot would agree on this, even french from France
i like these discussions ...

In fact when i say butchered, i refer to a serious deviation from a basic standard.

As basic standard, i take the French medias. TV mainly ... and serious programs that must respect the code of good language.

The point is that you are not exposed to them ... (or llittle ) therefore you may deviate quite seriously ! Movies are even translated in Quebecois !! Then your anti-anglicisme influences make it sound almost more french than the french itself. But to me i see it as a counter-stream creating an illusion of very good french.
Or after all, maybe it is closer to the roots. Under some forms why not.

Whatever, Canadian Quebecois is wellcome everywhere in Francophonie ... And you will always be hearing the : Ahhhh vous êtes Quebecois !!! then a sentence with Quebecois accent ... and then and a smile ha ha ha and finally the what may i do you for ... with a big smile and a very kind attitude towards you. (unless you meet a spoiled salesman in a touristic place )

torero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 04:29 AM
  #89
torero
Registered User
 
torero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Border of lake Leman
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 3,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Thank you so much for the help.

One question, what would you say for "gets an assist then" a marqué un but et "___" une aide"



The "et" means + ... but it could also imply a notion of later or subsequently ... but soft ... . If you want to be on a harder line and have it clearly specified you could put it like :

a marqué un but et par la suite marqua encore une aide which clearly tels when.
("par la suite" or anything implying a sequence ... plus tard ... dans un second temps ... all options are open.)

But basically marqué un but et une aide : you already have an order ... of importance and of time. If both are in line with what happen ... keep it like this.

torero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 05:02 AM
  #90
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Thank you so much for the help.

One question, what would you say for "gets an assist then" a marqué un but et "___" une aide"

Thanks again. And yeah, I'm just starting to re-learn French as of yesterday. I took Immersion for 4-years in public school, but stopped using it about 10 years ago and never learnt/continued with any since.

obtenu une aide.

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 05:05 AM
  #91
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
The "et" means + ... but it could also imply a notion of later or subsequently ... but soft ... . If you want to be on a harder line and have it clearly specified you could put it like :

a marqué un but et par la suite marqua encore une aide which clearly tels when.
("par la suite" or anything implying a sequence ... plus tard ... dans un second temps ... all options are open.)

But basically marqué un but et une aide : you already have an order ... of importance and of time. If both are in line with what happen ... keep it like this.
no one ever says that, you dont "score" an assist - you get one.

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 05:35 AM
  #92
torero
Registered User
 
torero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Border of lake Leman
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 3,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
no one ever says that, you dont "score" an assist - you get one.
You are right ...

in fact i never used the word "aide" ... in europe we use "assist" ! it mislead me, therefore i dealt poorly with the rest of it. Yet the basic point about "et" ... and its deep meaning remains valid.

By the way, this is funny, the "assist" comes from french assisster/assistance ... yet since it is close to the english "assist", Canadians use "aide" !

therefore "et a obtenu une aide" would be the short ... or the long implying the sequence in time would be ... "et par la suite a obtenu une aide"

torero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 05:40 AM
  #93
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
You are right ...

in fact i never used the word "aide" ... in europe we use "assist" ! it mislead me, therefore i dealt poorly with the rest of it. Yet the basic point about "et" ... and its deep meaning remains valid.

By the way, this is funny, the "assist" comes from french assisster/assistance ... yet since it is close to the english "assist", Canadians use "aide" !

therefore "et a obtenu une aide" would be the short ... or the long implying the sequence in time would be ... "et par la suite a obtenu une aide"
although technically correct, no one ever says that either

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 08:15 AM
  #94
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
therefore "et a obtenu une aide" would be the short ... or the long implying the sequence in time would be ... "et par la suite a obtenu une aide"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
although technically correct, no one ever says that either
Thanks to both of you.

So the correct way would be;

"a marqué un but et obtenu une aide"

or

"a marqué un but et a obtenu une aide"

my head is trying to tell me this way would make sense too...;

"a marqué un but et aussi obtenu une aide" ..

Sorry for being such an amateur.

One Man Rock Band is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 08:27 AM
  #95
Paul Dipietro
Registered User
 
Paul Dipietro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 715
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Thanks to both of you.

So the correct way would be;

"a marqué un but et obtenu une aide"

or

"a marqué un but et a obtenu une aide"

my head is trying to tell me this way would make sense too...;

"a marqué un but et aussi obtenu une aide" ..

Sorry for being such an amateur.
Also correct but the "aussi" acts a bit like a differentiator in this case. For example:

"Darche et Gionta ont marqué un but chacun. Subban a marqué un but et aussi obtenu une aide"

The first 2 can be seen as more "standalone" versions

Paul Dipietro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 08:56 AM
  #96
danyhabsfan
Registered User
 
danyhabsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,598
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Thanks to both of you.

So the correct way would be;

"a marqué un but et obtenu une aide"

or

"a marqué un but et a obtenu une aide"

my head is trying to tell me this way would make sense too...;

"a marqué un but et aussi obtenu une aide" ..

Sorry for being such an amateur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
Also correct but the "aussi" acts a bit like a differentiator in this case. For example:

"Darche et Gionta ont marqué un but chacun. Subban a marqué un but et aussi obtenu une aide"

The first 2 can be seen as more "standalone" versions
I would say:

a marqué un but et obtenu une aide.

If you put "aussi", then I would say:

a marqué un but et a aussi obtenu une aide.

danyhabsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 09:08 AM
  #97
CoupeStanley
Registered User
 
CoupeStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Nicolet
Country: Martinique
Posts: 2,536
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CoupeStanley
Il a obtenu un but et une passe dans un massacre orchestré par la grosse machine bleu blanc rouge.

You can also go more descriptive.

il a marqué un but en plus d'ajouter une aide lorsque Cammalleri enfila l'aiguille à la fin de la deuxième période.

but in the spoken language we don't describe it as much.

Un but, une passe

CoupeStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 12:44 PM
  #98
ChoseLa
Registered User
 
ChoseLa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Country: Martinique
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
I don't see why we would call it butchering, we have been speaking this french for centuries and we didn't have much contact with France before the WWI, it is a way of speaking by itself, it's not butchering a language. Butchering would mean that we butcher the french language from Europe, while we never spoke in the first place.

French spoken here has words that are way more exact than France, and vice versa.

I speak a better french than a lot of French people, because of my vocabulary (and there is a ton of people like me) but i do a lot of contractions like every Quebecers and French-Canadians, IE : Chui instead of Je suis (or J'suis) and Pantoute instead of Pas du tout.

French in Quebec is also more precise in some fields (As European french has) especialy the accent, we prononce every accent while in Europe they don't, in Europe if you say m'aime or même it sounds the same, same thing goes for la or and mâle or mal, as exemples. Europe has his strenght and Quebec also, there is not a transformation that one could call butchering though.

ChoseLa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 03:50 PM
  #99
torero
Registered User
 
torero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Border of lake Leman
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 3,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
although technically correct, no one ever says that either
I guess that this is where local habits (tournures) kick in. Because i would say that with no doubt and with confidence that it is very correct.

torero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2011, 04:25 PM
  #100
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Thanks to both of you.

So the correct way would be;

"a marqué un but et obtenu une aide"

or

"a marqué un but et a obtenu une aide"

my head is trying to tell me this way would make sense too...;

"a marqué un but et aussi obtenu une aide" ..

Sorry for being such an amateur.
bolded part is correct, and when it comes to such details you could always translate to see wich one makes the most sense. In this particular case would you say he had a goal and an assist (bolded) or he got a goal and got an assist ?

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:05 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.