Reason #1 why the Islanders are staying on the Island; population of 7+ million. Most NHL franchises don’t even come close. New Yorkers will support them if they win, that has always been, and look at the Mets last year they lose the fans leave and refuse spend their hard earned money. When the Isles win again the fans will be their but as of now for the most part they are totally disgusted.
Reason #1 why the Islanders are staying on the Island; population of 7+ million. Most NHL franchises don’t even come close. New Yorkers will support them if they win, that has always been, and look at the Mets last year they lose the fans leave and refuse spend their hard earned money. When the Isles win again the fans will be their but as of now for the most part they are totally disgusted.
Again though, that's designated television area, one they share with 2 other NHL teams, 6 other professional clubs, and countless other college sports and events that rank higher on the radar for 'New Yorkers'.
Don't get me wrong, I want them to stay and I'm sure that fans will come back if they start winning, but don't delude yourself with the idea that this will never happen because they're from NY. The unfortunate reality is that most of 'NY' wouldn't even notice if they up and left in the middle of the night.
The Rangers could be run by a trained chimp and still turn a profit, a team based out in the burbs will just never be the cash-cow that a city-based team is, especially in a niche sport.
But they have the second best TV contract in the league, one of the best in sports, play in a market that is far larger with (normally) a high disposable income (thanks Congress/County leaders) and have a history of succeeding in better times.
They move, they gamble on success. Vegas is tourists and then a lot of meh....can you go to games and keep your job dealing cards/serving drinks? Think the populace there can support it (take a look at foreclosure rates in Nevada!)?
Canada can support it but their population density and the allegiance to the existing teams casts a shadow of doubt IMHO in Hamilton. Winnipeg had no problems outside of population.....we could fill a 14k arena like the Jets could on many nights (but not always).
Remember there is $300+ MILLION DOLLARS coming still from Dolan and an opportunity to lengthen that deal. There is a growing ability to negotiate a desperate last minute arena financing from the state. (there is still a stimulus earmark set for the project).
There just won't be a WangsWorld Theme Park. Just the revenue the new arena brings to the owner/operator.
(and that would be good enough for someone who didn't suck at running an operation like our current owner)
I can say I'm not going to burn my life savings, but it doesn't mean I wont.
Here is all you need to know, and the one thing that all these people thinking the Islanders could move seem to forget.
No intelligent business man in their right mind is going to take a professional sport franchise out of NY and move anywhere other than LA, Chicago or Boston. You would have to be a serious fool to move any business out of the largest market in the free world. Period
They might move to Queens, they might move to Brooklyn, they might move to Suffolk, they might move to another location in Nassau.... they might even stay put. No chance in hell they get moved to any of the cities being rumored.
Two words: Jerry Bruckheimer! He's a hockey fanactic and it's a pretty well known fact that he'd like to own a NHL team. He's got big pockets and would be very good at promoting a team.
Two words: Jerry Bruckheimer! He's a hockey fanactic and it's a pretty well known fact that he'd like to own a NHL team. He's got big pockets and would be very good at promoting a team.
It appears Harrah's is bowing out out of the Las Vegas sports arena business before the first TV timeout.
A report in today's Sports Business Journal, citing inside sources, said Harrah's will no longer partner with arena developer AEG on a proposed 20,000-seat arena behind the Las Vegas Strip.
The Journal said a group of investors including Hollywood producer Jerry Bruckheimer, MGM Studios CEO Harry Sloan and Wall Street financier David Bonderman would instead partner with AEG on the project that was announced in August 2007.
The group's goal is to bring in an NHL expansion franchise to Las Vegas by October 2010.
Don't be surprised if this news turns out to be much ado about nothing, at least as it applies to the local sports fan.
In fact, it might even prove to be a positive development.
According to the Sports Business Journal, NHL executives were concerned that if Harrah's remained as a partner, the other Strip properties might not want to support the $500 million project by purchasing suites and driving other business toward a casino rival.
That's a legitimate concern. Remember the old Caesars Palace Grand Prix?
Plus, Harrah's is having money problems. Insiders say it could still profit by allowing the arena to be built on the proposed site, where sports and concert fans would have easy access to its gaming tables and slot machines. Or Harrah's could even sell the land on which the arena would be built to the new partners.
Again, if anybody's nervous, it should be UNLV, which depends on the Thomas & Mack Center for revenue. The T&M is the second largest-grossing arena in the world, trailing only Madison Square Garden. But it most likely would lose many of its events to the new arena, if and when it is built.
THEN:The bad thing about sports arenas selling their naming rights to corporations means there's no chance whatsoever that the new Las Vegas arena will be named the Cow Palace. Or Cow Palace East.
Even if they hold the National Finals Rodeo there.
No intelligent business man in their right mind is going to take a professional sport franchise out of NY and move anywhere other than LA, Chicago or Boston.
Also I would probably add San Fran to that list as well.
The Islanders DO NOT draw from NYC. They draw from Long Island. How many people from NYC even know/care about the Islanders, let alone actually go to the games?
Long Island is their market-NOT-all of the New York City area. Let's face it the Islanders have been bleeding money for almost 20 years now. Potential doesn't matter if it's not reached.
I can say I'm not going to burn my life savings, but it doesn't mean I wont.
Here is all you need to know, and the one thing that all these people thinking the Islanders could move seem to forget.
No intelligent business man in their right mind is going to take a professional sport franchise out of NY and move anywhere other than LA, Chicago or Boston. You would have to be a serious fool to move any business out of the largest market in the free world. Period
They might move to Queens, they might move to Brooklyn, they might move to Suffolk, they might move to another location in Nassau.... they might even stay put. No chance in hell they get moved to any of the cities being rumored.
wang would move this team in heartbeat if some city promised him half of his pie in the sky project. A city like winnapeg or quebec is gonna comea calling to wang after the 2014-15 season. In my heart of hearts I want them to stay but reality is they won't and noone will care at all cept a few thousand diehard fans. The isles haven't mattered in this town in 20+years and probably won't ever. That's the reality of things. Hell st. johns basketball matters more in the city.
If the Isles played in Manhattan somewhere I'd agree with you, but they play out in the burbs and are loosely associated with NYC through a designated television area. It's not the same as trying to move the Rangers out of NY unfortunately.
Pretty sure I said LA would be a destination. Also, you're talking about a completely different era, completely different sport and completely different circumtances.
The Isles may play in "the burbs", but it's still more densely populated than any of the other rumored destinations..... and it's still in the NY market. There's an existing fanbase here, just clean up the circus atmosphere and put a legitimate team on the ice.
Again though, that's designated television area, one they share with 2 other NHL teams, 6 other professional clubs, and countless other college sports and events that rank higher on the radar for 'New Yorkers'.
Don't get me wrong, I want them to stay and I'm sure that fans will come back if they start winning, but don't delude yourself with the idea that this will never happen because they're from NY. The unfortunate reality is that most of 'NY' wouldn't even notice if they up and left in the middle of the night.
The Rangers could be run by a trained chimp and still turn a profit, a team based out in the burbs will just never be the cash-cow that a city-based team is, especially in a niche sport.
Two other NHL teams (really only one.... there aren't many NJD fans here, if any at all) that will fill the building when the teams go head to head. LI's population is still more than double KC and LV, and there's an existing fanbase here. There's an obvious reason fans don't go to games, and it isn't because they don't like hockey anymore.
The rest of your agument, other professional sports holds no merit, because they aren't in direct competition with the Islanders.
The Islanders DO NOT draw from NYC. They draw from Long Island. How many people from NYC even know/care about the Islanders, let alone actually go to the games?
Long Island is their market-NOT-all of the New York City area. Let's face it the Islanders have been bleeding money for almost 20 years now. Potential doesn't matter if it's not reached.
And LI still has a larger population than the other cities rumored..... by a wide wide margin.
Two words: Jerry Bruckheimer! He's a hockey fanactic and it's a pretty well known fact that he'd like to own a NHL team. He's got big pockets and would be very good at promoting a team.
If Wang decides to sell the team, they will leave New York
Forget the cable deal, the 7+ million people in the area, and all that. It's about money...And other cities so DESPERATE to get a NHL/pro sports franchise may make an insane deal that Wang (or any other owner) may take.
And if you don't think teams have been given insane deals before I encourage you to see what Art Modell got to leave Cleveland for Baltimore 20 years ago.
And if you can't look back that far, why don't you look up what Glendale gave to the Coyotes just a few weeks ago to keep them. That deal is insanely good for the Coyotes (and on the surface insanely bad for Glendale), but the city made it because they felt that losing them (and they were on the verge of doing so), would have hurt them even more so than just the hockey revenue.
Bottom line is that Wang's time to negotiate will come in the 2013-2015 window. The last 10 years all the Nassau politicians could laugh at him because he was basically in jail. Well parole time is coming and the tables will turn (not that I trust Wang to do the right thing, but at least we'll finally know what's going on in the next 2-4 years).
Pretty sure I said LA would be a destination. Also, you're talking about a completely different era, completely different sport and completely different circumtances.
You did, I was more just making a wisecrack that teams do (and have) left the city. Teams that had a lot more attachment to the area than the Isles can boast. If the Isles left tomorrow, I don't think we'd see "The Ghosts of the Turnpike" on HBO anytime soon.
I'll grant you it was a different era, but the different sport argument is still something to consider. NY is a huge baseball town. In terms of fan interest, hockey is way down the list. Your original point was that no one would ever move a team out of 'NY' and all I'm saying is, we're not that high on the food-chain so I think it's most certainly a possibility.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
The Isles may play in "the burbs", but it's still more densely populated than any of the other rumored destinations..... and it's still in the NY market. There's an existing fanbase here, just clean up the circus atmosphere and put a legitimate team on the ice.
The 7.6M number is a bit misleading. About 4.7M of that is in Queens and Brooklyn.
Nassau is about 1.4MM and Suffolk is about 1.5MM. I'd argue that the bulk of Islanders supporters come from LI (Nassau & Suffolk) so the 2.9M is probably a more realistic estimation.
Also, LI will never have the corporate support of a city-based team and that hurts us in terms of revenue.
Again, just saying that we can't assume they won't move because they're in 'NY'.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
I'm not sure what more needs to be said
Ehh, like that's ever stopped me before.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
The rest of your agument, other professional sports holds no merit, because they aren't in direct competition with the Islanders.
C'mon, that's like saying the price of gas has no bearing on any other family budget decisions. It doesn't operate in a vacuum, I think you certainly have to account for the other teams in the area as they're all competing for your entertainment dollars.
The city-based teams are much better suited to withstand a string of bad seasons. The Garden will be full for Rangers and Knicks games regardless of the schlock that's put on the ice/floor. Corporate support is almost guaranteed there. The same can't be said for the Islanders. If they suck, people don't spend their money and their isn't enough of a corporate base to weather the storm. Not necessarily a bad thing as it theoretically forces the team to perform, but on the flip side, it makes it easier to escape in the middle of the night.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
And LI still has a larger population than the other cities rumored..... by a wide wide margin.
Again though, we really don't. The Rangers dominate the city in terms of fanbase and they also do pretty well on the Island whereas we hold our own on the Island, but don't draw well from the city.
At the end of the day, all I'm saying is it wouldn't shock me (and it probably wouldn't crack the back page of most NY newspapers) if the Isles left and we can't rule out the possibility simply because of the market they play in.
1 way or the other they have to get off LI. Queens baby. Queens.
Read the whole entry below -
TIME TO MOVE ON
The article worried, as many Islanders fans do, that the team may one day leave Long Island. .....Who cares if the Islanders stay on Long Island?
Every time we have this discussion, where we consider the Islanders leaving Long Island, I am blown away by the parade of fans and writers waxing poetic about staying in Hempstead. Do yourselves a favor folks, read an economics book, wake up, and smell the 21st century...... it’s time for all of us to face the reality of modern day sports. If you’re a real fan that actually wants the Islanders to be good again in your lifetime, you should be saying your prayers every night that the team packs up and moves into the city.
It’s a sad reality, but tiny local franchises that serve a small community just can’t survive in today’s big money corporate sports world. The Islanders celebrate their efforts to attract corporate sponsors like… Bethpage Federal Credit Union. .....You ever hear of a little company called American Express? Yea, they sponsor the Rangers. There is just no way the Islanders can survive as a franchise, let alone compete, if they don’t have access to the same kind of revenues other big time modern sports franchises do.
It’s time to cut the cord...in this economic climate, no local municipality is building them a new anything. So it’s time to stop complaining and hoping the Islanders stay in little suburban Hempstead, NY. In order for this team to ever attain its former glory they need to pack up, move west to Queens, and embrace the fact they’re called the NEW YORK Islanders.
Visiting Las Vegas for a couple of days and I came upon a construction site on the northend of the Strip near the Sahara Hotel. It said future home of the Silver State Arena. Checked out the website Silverstatearena.com and discovered a beautiful state of the art arena, that will seat 21,000 for hockey. The arena opens in the fall of 2012. If I was a betting man (I guess I am since I'm in Vegas), the Islanders would be my odds on favorite to end up here.
KC,Ontario Canada,Hartford,Houston,Vegas...are we supposed to cry and wring our hands over every city that wants a pro hockey team or who builds an arena?
If Wang decides to sell the team, they will leave New York
Forget the cable deal, the 7+ million people in the area, and all that. It's about money...And other cities so DESPERATE to get a NHL/pro sports franchise may make an insane deal that Wang (or any other owner) may take.
And if you don't think teams have been given insane deals before I encourage you to see what Art Modell got to leave Cleveland for Baltimore 20 years ago.
And if you can't look back that far, why don't you look up what Glendale gave to the Coyotes just a few weeks ago to keep them. That deal is insanely good for the Coyotes (and on the surface insanely bad for Glendale), but the city made it because they felt that losing them (and they were on the verge of doing so), would have hurt them even more so than just the hockey revenue.
Bottom line is that Wang's time to negotiate will come in the 2013-2015 window. The last 10 years all the Nassau politicians could laugh at him because he was basically in jail. Well parole time is coming and the tables will turn (not that I trust Wang to do the right thing, but at least we'll finally know what's going on in the next 2-4 years).
Yeah.Nelson Peltz,the Brooklyn billionaire,who Botta and ESPN say want to buy the isles,couldn't possible afford Wang's asking price
I'll grant you it was a different era, but the different sport argument is still something to consider. NY is a huge baseball town. In terms of fan interest, hockey is way down the list. Your original point was that no one would ever move a team out of 'NY' and all I'm saying is, we're not that high on the food-chain so I think it's most certainly a possibility.
I don't agree that the other sports has anything to do with the equation. First off, the only other sports Hockey is in competition with are NFL and NBA. the MLB season barely overlaps hockey. Regardless, this team has drawn before (recently) despite having all these sport teams in the area.
Of course... all this is moot, because at the end of the day, there's a ton more money making opportunities in the NY market than arguably much anywhere else in the world. And yes.... Long Island is very much in that NY market.
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The 7.6M number is a bit misleading. About 4.7M of that is in Queens and Brooklyn
Nassau is about 1.4MM and Suffolk is about 1.5MM. I'd argue that the bulk of Islanders supporters come from LI (Nassau & Suffolk) so the 2.9M is probably a more realistic estimation.
There are no Islander fans in Queens? Brooklyn? SI? Connecticut? Manhattan even? I beg to differ. You're making it sound like LI is Schenectady. This is nowhere near the case.
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Also, LI will never have the corporate support of a city-based team and that hurts us in terms of revenue.
Again, just saying that we can't assume they won't move because they're in 'NY'.
You think they would get better corporate support in KC? Possibly Vegas, but even that is debatable. Christ, the Coyotes have a brand new facility and a decent young team in pretty much the same market. How are they doing?
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C'mon, that's like saying the price of gas has no bearing on any other family budget decisions. It doesn't operate in a vacuum, I think you certainly have to account for the other teams in the area as they're all competing for your entertainment dollars
.
Who are they competing with? Knicks? Giants/Jets? We're going to have to agree to disagree here.... but like I said, this is a non issue when you look at the big picture. There is more money to be made here than anywhere else.
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The city-based teams are much better suited to withstand a string of bad seasons. The Garden will be full for Rangers and Knicks games regardless of the schlock that's put on the ice/floor. Corporate support is almost guaranteed there. The same can't be said for the Islanders. If they suck, people don't spend their money and their isn't enough of a corporate base to weather the storm. Not necessarily a bad thing as it theoretically forces the team to perform, but on the flip side, it makes it easier to escape in the middle of the night.
The Islanders haven't just sucked..... cripes, they haven't even just been horrible the past 20+ years. They've also kicked the fanbase in the stomach at every turn for the better part of two decades. NO TEAM, and I mean NO TEAM in ANY OTHER SPORT has been as bad for as long as the Islander, while simultaneously embarrassing the fanbase constantly. Maybe the Pirates come close..... but it really isn't even that close.
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Again though, we really don't. The Rangers dominate the city in terms of fanbase and they also do pretty well on the Island whereas we hold our own on the Island, but don't draw well from the city.
So by that logic, we've never been able to fill the NVMC? This is not the case at all.
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At the end of the day, all I'm saying is it wouldn't shock me (and it probably wouldn't crack the back page of most NY newspapers) if the Isles left and we can't rule out the possibility simply because of the market they play in.
I'd be absolutely amazed. It would take a really horrible business person to do that.
Someone else just brought up the Browns, as well as other teams that recently moved. How many teams from big markets (NY, LA, Chi) have moved to small markets in the last 50 years? Cleveland isn't a big market..... not even close.
I don't agree that the other sports has anything to do with the equation. First off, the only other sports Hockey is in competition with are NFL and NBA. the MLB season barely overlaps hockey. Regardless, this team has drawn before (recently) despite having all these sport teams in the area.
I'm not saying we can't draw, but how many people do you know who are solely hockey fans? Most sports fans I know have tend to have a favorite in each sport and I don't think it's a stretch to assume they vote with their wallets (i.e. Isles suck, I'm not wasting money on tix, I'll wait for baseball season, etc).
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
Of course... all this is moot, because at the end of the day, there's a ton more money making opportunities in the NY market than arguably much anywhere else in the world. And yes.... Long Island is very much in that NY market.
Agreed that there are a ton of money making opportunities in the NY market. I work in advertising, I've had a hand in some of those sponsorship deals. From my experience, I can assure you that Long Island is largely an afterthought and advertisers are not clamoring for the Isles. The Isles have to go out and negotiate sponsorships while the Rangers wait for them to call. That's why the Rangers are sponsored by AMEX, Chase, and Budweiser and the Islanders are pushing Bethpage Federal Credit Union, PC Richard, and NY Auto Giant.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
There are no Islander fans in Queens? Brooklyn? SI? Connecticut? Manhattan even? I beg to differ. You're making it sound like LI is Schenectady. This is nowhere near the case.
There are of course, they're also few and far between. Sorry, in terms of hockey fans, the boroughs, etc are Rangers territory by a mile.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
You think they would get better corporate support in KC? Possibly Vegas, but even that is debatable. Christ, the Coyotes have a brand new facility and a decent young team in pretty much the same market. How are they doing?
Actually, scary as it sounds, you probably would get better corp support in KC. Hell, they have an empty arena sitting there which is already sponsored by Sprint (headquartered in KC). Off the top of my head, Applebees, H&R Block, and Hallmark are there as well. Much smaller population as you've said, but they also wouldn't be 10-15 when it comes to top of mind in the area.
Mind you, not advocating KC or anything, just pointing out that we're not comparing midtown Manhattan to KC, it's LI vs. KC.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
Who are they competing with? Knicks? Giants/Jets? We're going to have to agree to disagree here.... but like I said, this is a non issue when you look at the big picture. There is more money to be made here than anywhere else.
There is, but most of it wants nothing to do with a franchise out in the burbs -- even in good times, should they ever miraculously appear again.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
The Islanders haven't just sucked..... cripes, they haven't even just been horrible the past 20+ years. They've also kicked the fanbase in the stomach at every turn for the better part of two decades. NO TEAM, and I mean NO TEAM in ANY OTHER SPORT has been as bad for as long as the Islander, while simultaneously embarrassing the fanbase constantly. Maybe the Pirates come close..... but it really isn't even that close.
Completely agree. And as I've said, the fans have voiced their displeasure with their wallets repeatedly. But I think that's another great example of why we're practically in a different market.
If you want a team that crapped on it's fanbase for an extended period of time, look across the East River at the Knicks. This season not withstanding, they've sucked for the past decade+. Pitiful seasons, Isiah Thomas fiasco, Allan Houston being their highest paid player even though he hadn't played in two years, gutting a team to sign LeBron (and failing), etc., it was pretty bad. And through it all, the Garden continued to sell out.
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Originally Posted by Jester9881
I'd be absolutely amazed. It would take a really horrible business person to do that.
Someone else just brought up the Browns, as well as other teams that recently moved. How many teams from big markets (NY, LA, Chi) have moved to small markets in the last 50 years? Cleveland isn't a big market..... not even close.
Los Angeles with the Raiders and the Rams comes to mind.
I know we're going point-by-point here (and please don't misunderstand, I respect your point of view, I just really disagree!), I still maintain that we're not a 'NY team' in the sense that a businessman would be bonkers to look elsewhere. If the Rangers, Knicks, Yankees, Mets, Giants, or Jets threatened to move (I mean really move, not like Steinbrenner threatening to move to the Meadowlands years ago), they'd lose all their leverage as no one would take the threat seriously. If the Isles threaten to move, unfortunately, most of NY will respond with, "Who?" Sucks, but it's the reality.
1 way or the other they have to get off LI. Queens baby. Queens.
Read the whole entry below -
TIME TO MOVE ON
The article worried, as many Islanders fans do, that the team may one day leave Long Island. .....Who cares if the Islanders stay on Long Island?
Every time we have this discussion, where we consider the Islanders leaving Long Island, I am blown away by the parade of fans and writers waxing poetic about staying in Hempstead. Do yourselves a favor folks, read an economics book, wake up, and smell the 21st century...... it’s time for all of us to face the reality of modern day sports. If you’re a real fan that actually wants the Islanders to be good again in your lifetime, you should be saying your prayers every night that the team packs up and moves into the city.
It’s a sad reality, but tiny local franchises that serve a small community just can’t survive in today’s big money corporate sports world. The Islanders celebrate their efforts to attract corporate sponsors like… Bethpage Federal Credit Union. .....You ever hear of a little company called American Express? Yea, they sponsor the Rangers. There is just no way the Islanders can survive as a franchise, let alone compete, if they don’t have access to the same kind of revenues other big time modern sports franchises do.
It’s time to cut the cord...in this economic climate, no local municipality is building them a new anything. So it’s time to stop complaining and hoping the Islanders stay in little suburban Hempstead, NY. In order for this team to ever attain its former glory they need to pack up, move west to Queens, and embrace the fact they’re called the NEW YORK Islanders.
