Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
My point was that Kessel is going to be a big time D-man for Long Island for a long time IMO, and you don't trade that for the prospects offered unless someone comparable is coming back to replace him.
really I dont see kessel being good....I feel Donovan might end up being better but I dnt think any of them will be NHLers for a while....
Komisarek is top a shutdown guy. That is his best asset. And he has been playing on a team horribly suited for his style of play the last 2 years.
I'm not sure I buy this. If the guy's a top shutdown guy, he'll play like such in any system.
Take guys like Regehr or Phillips. They both have maintained their "shutdown" ability, regardless of who the coach has been, and regardless of whether the team played defensively or a more wide-open offensive system.
I just think Komisarek is a flawed player when he's not paired with someone who can cover for his mistakes. He needed Markov in Montreal to make him look good. What other shutdown defenseman needs to be paired with an all-star caliber defenseman just to look competent?
I'm not sure I buy this. If the guy's a top shutdown guy, he'll play like such in any system.
Take guys like Regehr or Phillips. They both have maintained their "shutdown" ability, regardless of who the coach has been, and regardless of whether the team played defensively or a more wide-open offensive system.
I just think Komisarek is a flawed player when he's not paired with someone who can cover for his mistakes. He needed Markov in Montreal to make him look good. What other shutdown defenseman needs to be paired with an all-star caliber defenseman just to look competent?
But...but... the Leafs have Kaberle! He's a top-5 defenseman in the league!
I'm not sure I buy this. If the guy's a top shutdown guy, he'll play like such in any system.
Take guys like Regehr or Phillips. They both have maintained their "shutdown" ability, regardless of who the coach has been, and regardless of whether the team played defensively or a more wide-open offensive system.
I just think Komisarek is a flawed player when he's not paired with someone who can cover for his mistakes. He needed Markov in Montreal to make him look good. What other shutdown defenseman needs to be paired with an all-star caliber defenseman just to look competent?
Absolutely not. If a team is going to play a well supported conservative game, then those type of defencemen will succeed. When you take a 1-dimensional defenceman like Komisarek, and put him on a team who relies heavily on a rush offence, he's not going to succeed.
With Phillips, we're talking about a different type of defenceman. He's not a pure shutdown guy, more of a 2-way player like Beauchemin. Volchenkov is the comparison for Komisarek, and the Sens played the shutdown game with that pair on the ice.
All 1-dimensional shut down guys need to either be paired with a star puckmover (to play the top pair two-way role), or have their team support the puck well (to play a top shutdown role) in order to succeed. It just so happens that very few teams support the puck as poorly as Toronto does, and of course Schenn came in and excelled with Kaberle.
Absolutely not. If a team is going to play a well supported conservative game, then those type of defencemen will succeed. When you take a 1-dimensional defenceman like Komisarek, and put him on a team who relies heavily on a rush offence, he's not going to succeed.
With Phillips, we're talking about a different type of defenceman. He's not a pure shutdown guy, more of a 2-way player like Beauchemin. Volchenkov is the comparison for Komisarek, and the Sens played the shutdown game with that pair on the ice.
All 1-dimensional shut down guys need to either be paired with a star puckmover (to play the top pair two-way role), or have their team support the puck well (to play a top shutdown role) in order to succeed. It just so happens that very few teams support the puck as poorly as Toronto does, and of course Schenn came in and excelled with Kaberle.
Again, I'm not sure I buy that reasoning, not completely.
I can understand it causing Komisarek issues if he's forced to do things he's not capable of (ie. carry the puck up ice, pinch all the time at the offensive blueline, make quick outlet passes). Giveaways or mistakes caused in those instances, I can maybe buy as being the fault of the system not suiting his style.
But his overall play in his own zone? A shutdown guy should be able to at least look very capable of ... well, shutting down the opposition when the puck is in his own zone. Komisarek makes just as many mistakes in the defensive zone as he does in the transition game, neutral zone, or offensive zone.
Take Michalek from the Pens, for instance. The Pens play an uptempo game, too. They activate their defense all the time and expect them to take part in the offensive rush. But he's looked fantastic for the Pens in a shutdown role, even though his actual puck skills are limited and an offensive game doesn't suit him.
Michalek was great for Phoenix last year, who played a much more defensive oriented, conservative style than the Pens do. But he's just as great for Pittsburgh this season, despite the more offensively geared system he's now in.
If it as you say, and defensive-minded defensemen run into issues if they're in a more offensively-geared system, shouldn't Michalek also be looking like trash? He's paired with Paul Martin right now, by the way. Martin's mobile, sure, but he's not exactly an elite puck mover. So it's not like Michalek has the benefit of Drew Doughty or Duncan Keith beside him.
Again, I'm not sure I buy that reasoning, not completely.
I can understand it causing Komisarek issues if he's forced to do things he's not capable of (ie. carry the puck up ice, pinch all the time at the offensive blueline, make quick outlet passes). Giveaways or mistakes caused in those instances, I can maybe buy as being the fault of the system not suiting his style.
But his overall play in his own zone? A shutdown guy should be able to at least look very capable of ... well, shutting down the opposition when the puck is in his own zone. Komisarek makes just as many mistakes in the defensive zone as he does in the transition game, neutral zone, or offensive zone.
Take Michalek from the Pens, for instance. The Pens play an uptempo game, too. They activate their defense all the time and expect them to take part in the offensive rush. But he's looked fantastic for the Pens in a shutdown role, even though his actual puck skills are limited and an offensive game doesn't suit him.
Michalek was great for Phoenix last year, who played a much more defensive oriented, conservative style than the Pens do. But he's just as great for Pittsburgh this season, despite the more offensively geared system he's now in.
If it as you say, and defensive-minded defensemen run into issues if they're in a more offensively-geared system, shouldn't Michalek also be looking like trash? He's paired with Paul Martin right now, by the way. Martin's mobile, sure, but he's not exactly an elite puck mover. So it's not like Michalek has the benefit of Drew Doughty or Duncan Keith beside him.
His overall play in his own zone hasn't been the problem. He's been effective at removing his man from the puck, it's his play with the puck that has caused his reduced ice time, as Toronto has 5 guys who are better with the puck in the lineup almost every single night.
Take Michalek from the Pens this year (who is a better puckmover than Komisarek and can't be quite as physically dominating). He plays over 50% of his time with Paul Martin, a very good puckmover. He doesn't put up a lot of points, but he has a very good outlet pass.
Furthermore, it's not just a matter of uptempo versus defensive game, it's a matter of puck support from the forwards. Pittsburgh's obvious strength is up the middle. That allows guys like Crosby / Malkin to drop down and act as a 3rd defenceman for the breakout, without sacrificing their involvement in the offence. Pittsburgh is "uptempo" most nights based on talent alone, having good puckmovers and dynamic offensive weapons, but they play a very sound structure.
Toronto hasn't done that and hasn't been able to because of their forwards lack of size and overall talent level. As soon as a Toronto defenceman gets the puck, these guys are going north waiting for a pass through the middle of the ice (because they are too small to work teh puck up the boards and out). That requires excellent outlet passing ability and leads to a ton of turnovers. When they do get into the offensive zone, the tendency is to have the forwards work the puck above the hashmarks, again because they need that space. That also leads to high risk plays. The alternative -- you're not going to score any goals if you don't play that way.
Pure shutdown guys do fall into trouble if their team doesn't support the puck well and they don't play with a high quality puckmover. Toronto is among the worst in the league at puck support, and Gunnarsson isn't that great of a puckmover.
Last edited by seanlinden: 01-21-2011 at 12:25 PM.
His overall play in his own zone hasn't been the problem. He's been effective at removing his man from the puck, it's his play with the puck that has caused his reduced ice time, as Toronto has 5 guys who are better with the puck in the lineup almost every single night.
Take Michalek from the Pens this year (who is a better puckmover than Komisarek and can't be quite as physically dominating). He plays over 50% of his time with Paul Martin, a very good puckmover. He doesn't put up a lot of points, but he has a very good outlet pass.
Furthermore, it's not just a matter of uptempo versus defensive game, it's a matter of puck support from the forwards. Pittsburgh's obvious strength is up the middle. That allows guys like Crosby / Malkin to drop down and act as a 3rd defenceman for the breakout, without sacrificing their involvement in the offence. Pittsburgh is "uptempo" most nights based on talent alone, having good puckmovers and dynamic offensive weapons, but they play a very sound structure.
Toronto hasn't done that and hasn't been able to because of their forwards lack of size and overall talent level. As soon as a Toronto defenceman gets the puck, these guys are going north waiting for a pass through the middle of the ice (because they are too small to work teh puck up the boards and out). That requires excellent outlet passing ability and leads to a ton of turnovers. When they do get into the offensive zone, the tendency is to have the forwards work the puck above the hashmarks, again because they need that space. That also leads to high risk plays. The alternative -- you're not going to score any goals if you don't play that way.
Pure shutdown guys do fall into trouble if their team doesn't support the puck well and they don't play with a high quality puckmover. Toronto is among the worst in the league at puck support, and Gunnarsson isn't that great of a puckmover.
But I thought Toronto had the most talented blueline in the league...
But I thought Toronto had the most talented blueline in the league...
They have one of the most talented bluelines in the league, but their talent is in the physical department, which is horribly suited for their forwards.
To Toronto:
Matt Moulson
Casey Cizikas
Blake Kessel
To New York Islanders:
Jonas Gustavsson
Mike Komisarek
Jerry D'amigo
Juraj Mikus
As already established, completely unfair trade for the Isles. They don't get back anything that really helps them in terms of what they're *trying* to build.
Ironically...Taking out Komisarek (and his ridiculous salary) actually makes it a more fair trade. I happen to think that he is one of the top 10 most overpaid players in the league.
The Isles will need the cap space they have now over the next few years for Moulson, Okposo, Bailey, Tavares, among others, and probably the overpayments they'll have to make to get any UFA's.
They have one of the most talented bluelines in the league, but their talent is in the physical department, which is horribly suited for their forwards.
I never thought id say this but thanks to your post I think i just figured out Bruno Gervais problem..... he's just too damn Talented
