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Proposal - J. Staal/P. Dupuis for B.Boyes and T.J. Oshie

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Old
01-21-2011, 04:07 PM
  #26
Celtic Note
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil68 View Post
Figured Staal Oshie would Cancel out or So many feel like Jordan Staal is or could be gold. Therefore Value of Staal is a little higher the Oshie, you add in Boyes who makes around the money as Jordan, And Dupuis's salary goes towards Oshie's. The way i see it is, great on both end.... Remember the Blues would still have Backes Perron, Steen, and Tarasenko just to name a few!!
No way. They are even at best, which I would still debate. The Blues would not trade Oshie for Staal straight up for many reasons.

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01-21-2011, 04:13 PM
  #27
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No interest in dealing Staal, and Oshie's a St.Louis folk hero which means his value is instantly inflated on these boards.

Staal is younger than Oshie, more durable, playoff proven, better defensively, and has two seasons with a higher point total than Oshie's career high, and 3 seasons with a higher goal total than Oshie's career high.

Oshie hits more and harder.

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01-21-2011, 04:13 PM
  #28
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I can't see Staal and Oshie being even. Staal is the more accomplished player. He's had 3 20+ goal seasons and was a Selke finalist last year. I guess Oshie may mean more to his team since they don't have Crosby or Malkin to fallback on, but still. I just don't see the Oshie > Staal argument beyond that.

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01-21-2011, 04:14 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
No way. They are even at best, which I would still debate. The Blues would not trade Oshie for Staal straight up for many reasons.
I understand the Blues hanging on to Oshie for off ice reasons, but he and Staal are not close in terms on on ice value. Staal is younger, playoff proven, significantly bigger, equal on offence, and better on defence.

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01-21-2011, 04:20 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
I can't see Staal and Oshie being even. Staal is the more accomplished player. He's had 3 20+ goal seasons and was a Selke finalist last year. I guess Oshie may mean more to his team since they don't have Crosby or Malkin to fallback on, but still. I just don't see the Oshie > Staal argument beyond that.
I tend to agree. I don't have any problem with Oshie but comparatively the only way the untrained eye would mistake him for a better player than Staal is the fact that Staal is a 3rd line center.

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01-21-2011, 04:27 PM
  #31
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I don't disagree or agree that Staal might yield more value on the open market, but to the Blues his value is higher, which is all that matters when considering a trade of Oshie for Staal. Thus my earlier statement.

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01-21-2011, 04:29 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
How can Oshie be a top 6 forward but Staal isn't? Staal's younger, scored 20+ goals in 3 out of 4 full season and 40+ points in 3 out of 4 full seasons. Oshie's a fan favourite and very marketable so the Blues wont move him (as was pointed out by lots of people when this was posted on the Pens board). Boyes is a top 6 guy but it's a bit worrying that he's on pace for another sub 20 goal season.
You forgot to add that Staal was on a very good, high scoring team and that Oshie is on the exact opposite.

Oshies first two years were slightly better than Staals offensively, despite playing less games.

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01-21-2011, 04:32 PM
  #33
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Oshie has more value to STL, but as others are saying on the ice id say Staal>Oshie

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01-21-2011, 04:40 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
You forgot to add that Staal was on a very good, high scoring team and that Oshie is on the exact opposite.

Oshies first two years were slightly better than Staals offensively, despite playing less games.
It's a little more cloudy than that. Staal's first year he played with Malkin, granted. The next year he was exclusively a 3rd line center save for some experimenting at the beginning of the season (i.e., he almost never played with the big guns). He had a hiccup in his production then for obvious reasons, another one of which was getting about the last 20 seconds of PP time whenever they had the man advantage. I'm not saying this means Staal is better than Oshie, but I still don't see how you can say anything more than that they're about even.

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Old
01-21-2011, 04:41 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Counter offer:

Staal and Hanowski

for

Boyes, McRae and a 3rd-5th.

Blues need a top 6 center ( IMO Staal is one) and they need LW prospect depth.

Pens need a scoring winger and Boyes will score more than Staal if paired with Crosby and Malkin, they also get a winger/center prospect who can play soon. The pick is to balance out.

This trade keep the Pens and Blues at the same payroll level, which is important to both teams.

Flame away.
Not terrible value wise but Pens wouldn't gamble on Boyes if Staal was the price. They'd probably be looking for someone closer to Staal's age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
You forgot to add that Staal was on a very good, high scoring team and that Oshie is on the exact opposite.

Oshies first two years were slightly better than Staals offensively, despite playing less games.
Staal's two best seasons statistically came playing with Cooke and Kennedy and playing little quality PP time. I know Oshie's had some good projected stats but when you can't play a full season projected stats tend to matter less.


Last edited by wej20: 01-21-2011 at 06:10 PM.
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Old
01-21-2011, 04:45 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Not terrible value wise but Pens wouldn't gamble on Boyes if Staal was the price. They'd probably looking for someone closer to Staal's age.



Staal's two best seasons statistically came playing with Cooke and Kennedy and playing little quality PP time. I know Oshie's had some good projected stats but when you can't play a full season projected stats tend to matter less.
This season Oshie's injury was about as freak as Staals.

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01-21-2011, 04:45 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
You forgot to add that Staal was on a very good, high scoring team and that Oshie is on the exact opposite.
Staal has played primarily with Kennedy and Cooke in a defensive role. So no, he has not had anything close to an advantage regarding his offensive environment.

Quote:
Oshies first two years were slightly better than Staals offensively, despite playing less games.
TJ ain't helping his team in the games he doesn't play.

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Old
01-21-2011, 04:49 PM
  #38
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I think it's pretty fair to say Blues fans would much rather have Oshie and Pens fans would rather haver Staal. They are hard to compare because they play the game different ways and are both very important to their teams.

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Old
01-21-2011, 04:57 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
TJ ain't helping his team in the games he doesn't play.

Neither is Staal!

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Old
01-21-2011, 04:58 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
It's a little more cloudy than that. Staal's first year he played with Malkin, granted. The next year he was exclusively a 3rd line center save for some experimenting at the beginning of the season (i.e., he almost never played with the big guns). He had a hiccup in his production then for obvious reasons, another one of which was getting about the last 20 seconds of PP time whenever they had the man advantage. I'm not saying this means Staal is better than Oshie, but I still don't see how you can say anything more than that they're about even.
Good points.

Again, I am not arguing that Oshie is the better player on ice. That point can be debated, which is part of the reason I brought up the point analysis of their first two seasons. What I am really arguing is that Oshie's value is higher to the Blues, which Staal's may or may not be higher to the Pens or any other team ...to that end I will not act as though I know or have a good idea of what they think (likely the knowledgeable fans of their respective teams will have a better idea).

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01-21-2011, 05:03 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
If you are suggesting that Brad Boyes ability to impact a game (on either side of the puck) outside the offensive blueline has increased, that's news to me. But I'll defer to your standing as a Blues fan.

My bottom line assessment stands, however.

Deal makes no sense for the Pens, if one wants to take an objective nanosecond to consider the context for this hypothetical deal - namely, where the team is and what their goals are.
I'm sorry to break the common misconception that Boyes is nothing but a cherry picker but it's true . He doesn't have the defensive acumen of someone like Oshie or Backes but Boyes certainly helps more than he hurts when it comes to coverage in the neutral and defensive zone. Boyes is actually rather good on the backcheck to be honest.

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Old
01-21-2011, 05:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Not terrible value wise but Pens wouldn't gamble on Boyes if Staal was the price. They'd probably looking for someone closer to Staal's age.
I thought it was pretty fair value wise, but I am not sure if a winger for Crosby is worth giving up Staal. Personally I believe a team needs players like Staal to win. Although, you might be underestimating the player McRae is/can become (he is not someone I want to give up, but you have to give to get).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Staal's two best seasons statistically came playing with Cooke and Kennedy and playing little quality PP time. I know Oshie's had some good projected stats but when you can't play a full season projected stats tend to matter less.
This is why Oshie is worth more to the Blues, he accounts for a higher percentage of their offense and energy.

As for the projected stats issue, I used their actual stat lines, not projected ones.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 01-21-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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Old
01-21-2011, 05:09 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
I'm sorry to break the common misconception that Boyes is nothing but a cherry picker but it's true . He doesn't have the defensive acumen of someone like Oshie or Backes but Boyes certainly helps more than he hurts when it comes to coverage in the neutral and defensive zone. Boyes is actually rather good on the backcheck to be honest.
This use to not be the case, which is why the fans of other teams (and even some of our own unfortunately... "sigh") think he is entirely one-dimensional. But, over the last two years, Boyes has significantly developed his complete game. This should not read that he is a strong two-way player, but not one-dimensional.

Also, when Boyes has played with a high skill playmaker, his point totals spike. When Andy Mac was on his game before the injury, Boyes was playing well offensively. A while back when Kariya was on his game Boyes reached career highs. This leads me to believe that playing with Malkin or Crosby would significantly elevate his point totals again.

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01-21-2011, 05:11 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fictionzero View Post
Staal is only a 3rd line center on the Pens because of Crosby and Malkin. If he were on another team that wasn't so deep down the middle he would be in the top six at center.

But regardless. I do not see this deal working. Value is close to right, but just do not see the Blue's pulling the trigger on it.
Agreed some what. This deal is favored torwards the pens slightly (edit). Staal is not a 3rd line center. He is a 2nd line center at worst. However Oshie is a beast and Boyes is a 30 goal scorer. Staal + 1st for Oshie and Boyes seems more fair to me...


Last edited by Gardner McKay: 01-21-2011 at 05:20 PM.
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01-21-2011, 05:11 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Staal has played primarily with Kennedy and Cooke in a defensive role. So no, he has not had anything close to an advantage regarding his offensive environment.



TJ ain't helping his team in the games he doesn't play.
Was he not playing against easier opposing defensive units? Were the other teams not focusing on shutting down Crosby and Malkin over Staal? The answer to those questions can be important factors in this discussion.

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01-21-2011, 05:12 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Wolskii View Post
Agreed some what. This deal is favored torwards the blues slightly. Staal is not a 3rd line center. He is a 2nd line center at worst. However Oshie is a beast and Boyes is a 30 goal scorer. Staal + 1st for Oshie and Boyes seems more fair to me...
Yet the Blues would not do this, because they are not in rebuild mode anymore.

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01-21-2011, 05:13 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post

Also, when Boyes has played with a high skill playmaker, his point totals spike. When Andy Mac was on his game before the injury, Boyes was playing well offensively. A while back when Kariya was on his game Boyes reached career highs. This leads me to believe that playing with Malkin or Crosby would significantly elevate his point totals again.
Couldnt agree more, I think a change of scenery would do wonders for Boyes, playing on a line with Crosby or Malkin I dont doubt that he could reach 30-35 goals again, but is it worth Staal? I doubt it

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01-21-2011, 05:17 PM
  #48
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Couldnt agree more, I think a change of scenery would do wonders for Boyes, playing on a line with Crosby or Malkin I dont doubt that he could reach 30-35 goals again, but is it worth Staal? I doubt it
Thats why McRae was added to the proposal. He would be great in the Pens system. He plays hard and has really good skill. He fits in as the 3rd line center next year...if need be. He is a sound two-way player and can score. If he played on the Pens next year, as a third liner I would wager he would put up 10-15 goals. On the safe side I would put Boyes and McRae's production next year on the Pens as nearing 35-40 goals, thats a good deal more than Staal.

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01-21-2011, 05:21 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Counter offer:

Staal and Hanowski

for

Boyes, McRae and a 3rd-5th.

Blues need a top 6 center ( IMO Staal is one) and they need LW prospect depth.

Pens need a scoring winger and Boyes will score more than Staal if paired with Crosby and Malkin, they also get a winger/center prospect who can play soon. The pick is to balance out.

This trade keep the Pens and Blues at the same payroll level, which is important to both teams.

Flame away.


We need scoring wingers, not wingers who haven't been able to score for 3 years. Boyes is garbage and a mediocre prospect and a pick don't make up the difference. And then you want Hanowski for what reason exactly?

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01-21-2011, 05:21 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Thats why McRae was added to the proposal. He would be great in the Pens system. He plays hard and has really good skill. He fits in as the 3rd line center next year...if need be. He is a sound two-way player and can score. If he played on the Pens next year, as a third liner I would wager he would put up 10-15 goals. On the safe side I would put Boyes and McRae's production next year on the Pens as nearing 35-40 goals, thats a good deal more than Staal.
Pens have got Letestu or Jeffrey to fill 3rd line C position. We need top 6 talent, not bottom 6 players.

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