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Proposal - J. Staal/P. Dupuis for B.Boyes and T.J. Oshie

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Old
01-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
So what do you think of my alternate proposal of Staal, Dupuis and Hanowski for Boyes, McClement and a 1st?

McClement provides a comparable defensive prowess to Staal, Boyes has the potential to put up numbers better than Staal will as a member of the Pens (as long as Crosby and Malkin are there), and the 1st provides the Pens the opportunity to draft a potentially really good player.

As for the last part, I think that is a fair statement. The same can be said of the value of Backes and Oshie when it comes to the Blues. Everyone always points to their offensive stats. They fail to see everything else they offer, as well as their potential.
How are you defining comparable? Because Staal's Selke nomination says the two arent on the same tier and I think there is a definite step from Staal to McClement.

Furthermore, there is no need to trade Staal at all.
Would it be nice to have a scoring winger? Sure?
Is it absolutely imperative? Well in an earlier post you brought up the Pens high octane offense, so no, I dont think it is an issue where we need to trade our 22 year old Selke nominated, cup winning center for two pieces we simply dont need (or specifically, THESE two pieces).

The loss of Staal in this deal would hurt this team more than the return would help. We have a few McClements on this team, and Boyes simply isnt worth Staal (though he would look nice with Malkin).

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01-23-2011, 11:30 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
He only has points in 3 of the 9 games he has played in this season, that is not first line center material.
Come on...Considering he missed all of the offseason, and half of this season (not even being able to simply skate most of that time), didnt have the benefit of a training camp or even a single pre-season game, I can forgive him for starting slow his first few games. Those were his training camp games pretty much.

So whats he have now? 7 points in his last 8 games?
I mean you just used Boyes stats from his last 14 games or something like that so why cant you give Staal the same treatment youre giving Boyes, especially considering the circumstances.

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01-23-2011, 11:34 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
How are you defining comparable? Because Staal's Selke nomination says the two arent on the same tier and I think there is a definite step from Staal to McClement.

Furthermore, there is no need to trade Staal at all.
Would it be nice to have a scoring winger? Sure?
Is it absolutely imperative? Well in an earlier post you brought up the Pens high octane offense, so no, I dont think it is an issue where we need to trade our 22 year old Selke nominated, cup winning center for two pieces we simply dont need (or specifically, THESE two pieces).

The loss of Staal in this deal would hurt this team more than the return would help. We have a few McClements on this team, and Boyes simply isnt worth Staal (though he would look nice with Malkin).
If you think think the Selke trophy and nominations really go to the best defensive forward in the league your are sadly mistaken. Points team you play on ex have a lot more to do with the Selke then being the actual best defensive forward. It's like Norris goes to the best offensive defenseman in general not the best defenseman.

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01-23-2011, 11:43 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
So, how does no preseason affect you during the season. Look at the preseason leading scorers, preseason doesn't mean anything. If he is a legit number 1 center, he should be consistent, not only scoring in 3 of 9 games. It's nothing against Staal, it's just that he is not a number 1 center.
The mere fact you don't understand this discredits anything you say.


It's like asking a back up goaltender to come in and backstop a game after not playing for 30 something games.

His statement had nothing to do with stats, and more to do with timing & conditioning that comes with playing actual games.

Staal didn't get a single game of actual in game practice that's known as a pre-season game. His pre-season was actual games that count during the regular season.

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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
He only has points in 3 of the 9 games he has played in this season, that is not first line center material.
This only proves how much you don't know.

Kind of a small sample size to judge, no?

Let me know when he gets a full season of 1st line duty to judge this.


Last edited by Ugene Malkin: 01-23-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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01-23-2011, 11:44 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ghost Dog View Post
IMO Oshie is better the Staal.
I want what you are smoking, Oshie is 24 and has a career high of 18 goals and 48 pts. He gets top 6 minutes, I know he brings a lot more than points - but so does Staal.

Staal has had more goals than 18 3x in his career playing on the 3rd line - all above 20 goas. The minutes are the same, but Staal plays a lot against the opposing teams top line, and kills a **** load of penalties. He is also younger by 2 years @ 22.

Although Staal's career high in points is 49, he's done it twice and also had a 29 goal 48 pt rookie season.

I would take Staal over Oshie everytime. Now, Boyes is thrown in the deal whom has a 40+ goal season, but @ 4 million and his rate of his current production is worrisome. That being said this deal is not as in favor of Pittsburgh as it is being made out.

Maybe switch Dupuis with a prospect ala Tangradi, or something along those lines and you have a pretty solid deal... Or Oshie + a pick/mid level prospect for Staal.

Edit: Not to mention Staal has a Selkie nomination, at 21 yrs of age.

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01-23-2011, 11:54 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
The loss of Staal in this deal would hurt this team more than the return would help. We have a few McClements on this team, and Boyes simply isnt worth Staal (though he would look nice with Malkin).
Ultimately this is the answer: For the Blues, Staal does not bring back enough to off-set the fan angst that would occur with the trade of Oshie...and for Pittsburgh, they have built their entire system on the backs of 3 very high quality centers.

Additionally, the Blues should/would probably be in search of more offense and they would be doing a net gain of zero in that regard with this trade.




As an aside, I would love to see if sending Boyes to the Penguins would do something to re-jump his career...I would imagine it would. However I see no way of doing so that does not require a massive talent exchange due to the salary cap situation. The only way possible I see is Kunitz-Boyes and to be quite frank I fail to see a reason the Blues would do this.

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01-23-2011, 11:58 AM
  #107
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Malkin

1st round pick
T.j Oshie
Patrik Berglund
Jaeden Schwartz








hehe

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01-23-2011, 12:01 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by RedwingsnCudi13 View Post
Malkin

1st round pick
T.j Oshie
Patrik Berglund
Jaeden Schwartz








hehe
Blues pass on this I am sure the Pens pass also though. As good as Malkin is the Blues lose way to much depth with high end potential. One injury to Malkin for any length of time the Blues are in a similar situation as they are with Oshie, Perron, and MacDonald being hurts with a lack of depth to replace them.

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01-23-2011, 12:09 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by RedwingsnCudi13 View Post
Malkin

1st round pick
T.j Oshie
Patrik Berglund
Jaeden Schwartz








hehe
Not sure I see a reason to do this for the Penguins, even in light of Malkin's less than stellar season he has had this year. They are in win-now mode and Schwartz and first round picks are unlikely to help them in this pursuit...and Oshie/Berglund are unlikely to replace the possible offense Malkin creates.

From the Blues perspective, lack of center depth and overall player depth, issue of salary vs. internal cap, etc.
Also, Malkin does not have a cool name which somewhat sounds like a beloved video-game character's...I cannot imagine a team trading such a player away.

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01-23-2011, 12:19 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
If you think think the Selke trophy and nominations really go to the best defensive forward in the league your are sadly mistaken. Points team you play on ex have a lot more to do with the Selke then being the actual best defensive forward. It's like Norris goes to the best offensive defenseman in general not the best defenseman.
Sure, but this award isnt for the best all around forward, it is specific in that it is for the best defensive forward.

And your argument isnt a compelling case whatsoever. I would be more inclined to believe that the nomination (or win) is much more of an indicator in terms of ranking a players defensive accumen than not.

And taking it a step further, watching Staal continually draw the toughest defensive assignments and shining in that role over the years (and thus being recognized as such) at such a young age is the most compelling argument needed to convince me.

Of course others have thier own opinions and that is fine. I'd rather keep Staal on the Penguins.

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01-23-2011, 01:02 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
Except that Richards is a proven scorer at this level. They might play similar games but Richards does it better.

Of course Richards does it better... he has played over 400 games and is in his sixth NHL season. He has refined his game. TJ Oshie is in just his third season.


TJ Oshie in his first three seasons:

Goals Per Game: 0.23
Assists Per Game: 0.43
Points Per Game: 0.66


Mike Richards in his first three seasons:

Goals Per Game: 0.23
Assists Per Game: 0.43
Points Per Game: 0.66


Jordan Staal in his first three seasons:

Goals Per Game: 0.26
Assists Per Game: 0.23
Points Per Game: 0.49

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01-23-2011, 01:13 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
Sure, but this award isnt for the best all around forward, it is specific in that it is for the best defensive forward.

And your argument isnt a compelling case whatsoever. I would be more inclined to believe that the nomination (or win) is much more of an indicator in terms of ranking a players defensive accumen than not.

And taking it a step further, watching Staal continually draw the toughest defensive assignments and shining in that role over the years (and thus being recognized as such) at such a young age is the most compelling argument needed to convince me.

Of course others have thier own opinions and that is fine. I'd rather keep Staal on the Penguins.
McClement gets the toughest defensive assignments also so do most defensive centers. There are many players that are 3rd line grinders that get the toughest defensive assignments that don't play on as good of teams as Pitt, Detroit or Van. Yet they are every bit as good or better defensively as the top vote getters for the Selke they just don't have the flashy offensive numbers or the team success to be nominated for the Selke. Team success and name play a lot into who wins awards in the NHL. McClement was a top 5 in Selke voting before while playing on a much lesser team with worse offensive numbers btw. Also part of the top penalty kill in the league last season on a team that under performed.

Market and offensive output play a role in the Selke even is it is suppose to be for the best defensive forward. The best defensive forward in the league playing on the worst team in the league would never be considered for the Selke due to team success factoring in all NHL awards regardless of what they say they are for.

Also this season Pitt has had a pretty successful penalty kill while Staal has missed a majority of the season. One could argue Staal's defensive success is as much a product of a team that was still good in PK situation minus Staal.

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01-23-2011, 01:23 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
Of course Richards does it better... he has played over 400 games and is in his sixth NHL season. He has refined his game. TJ Oshie is in just his third season.


TJ Oshie in his first three seasons as a 22, 23, and 24 year old:

Goals Per Game: 0.23
Assists Per Game: 0.43
Points Per Game: 0.66


Mike Richards in his first three seasons as a 20, 21, and 22 year old:

Goals Per Game: 0.23
Assists Per Game: 0.43
Points Per Game: 0.66


Jordan Staal in his first three seasons as an 18, 19, and 20 year old:

Goals Per Game: 0.26
Assists Per Game: 0.23
Points Per Game: 0.49
Thought I'd toss in some strangely absent, yet highly relevant information...

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01-23-2011, 01:31 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Thought I'd toss in some strangely absent, yet highly relevant information...

OHL >>> WCHA

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01-23-2011, 01:41 PM
  #115
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OHL >>> WCHA
So you're claiming Richards and Staal are both more refined because they played in NHL at a younger age? Isn't it more likely they were in NHL because they were and are just better hockey players? By 22 Richards was a point per game player and Staal is a 5th year pro with a cup ring and a Selke nomination. Oshie was having a decent rookie season...

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01-23-2011, 01:55 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
How are you defining comparable? Because Staal's Selke nomination says the two arent on the same tier and I think there is a definite step from Staal to McClement.

Furthermore, there is no need to trade Staal at all.
Would it be nice to have a scoring winger? Sure?
Is it absolutely imperative? Well in an earlier post you brought up the Pens high octane offense, so no, I dont think it is an issue where we need to trade our 22 year old Selke nominated, cup winning center for two pieces we simply dont need (or specifically, THESE two pieces).The loss of Staal in this deal would hurt this team more than the return would help. We have a few McClements on this team, and Boyes simply isnt worth Staal (though he would look nice with Malkin).
Although the Selke is supposed to go to the best defensive player, it really goes to players who can score at least at a second line clip, while providing really good defense. Unfortunately there are players who are more deserving of the trophy that don't put up enough points. So, your Selke argument is pretty weak IMO, as is anyone else who uses it to judge the defensive abilities of a forward.

You have a few really good defensive centers?

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01-23-2011, 01:58 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
So you're claiming Richards and Staal are both more refined because they played in NHL at a younger age? Isn't it more likely they were in NHL because they were and are just better hockey players? By 22 Richards was a point per game player and Staal is a 5th year pro with a cup ring and a Selke nomination. Oshie was having a decent rookie season...

I'm claiming that Richards and Staal(both Canadian) had a shorter pathway to the NHL, probably aided by coming up through better hockey programs and playing in much better junior leagues. Oshie is an American who took a longer path to the NHL, it happens all the time(Canadian hockey programs are better than American hockey programs).

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01-23-2011, 02:02 PM
  #118
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People seem to forget the type of player Jordan was in his rookie season before refining his game for a 3rd line defensive role. The dude has the skill set to be a 1st line center and there isn't a doubt in my mind about that.
The question is...will he ever be able to reach that potential playing behind Crosby and Malkin? IMO its doubtful if the Pens continue to use him as a third line center, which is a underutilization of his skill set.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 01-23-2011 at 02:18 PM.
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01-23-2011, 02:05 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
I'm claiming that Richards and Staal(both Canadian) had a shorter pathway to the NHL, probably aided by coming up through better hockey programs and playing in much better junior leagues. Oshie is an American who took a longer path to the NHL, it happens all the time(Canadian hockey programs are better than American hockey programs).
People always seem to miss the fact that Oshie came out of nowhere essentially. He was far less prepared for the NHL than either Richards or Staal and scouts said he would take some time to develop. But on HF people ridiculously compare players that come out playing at a high level right off the bat and they expect all players should be able to do the same.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 01-23-2011 at 02:19 PM.
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01-23-2011, 02:16 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
Except that Richards is a proven scorer at this level. They might play similar games but Richards does it better.

This

Again, in what way? Staal has produced more in terms of offense and defense thus far, despite being two years younger. He also was a major contributer on a team with a Stanley Cup Final and a Stanley Cup win.

I mean, I have no problem if people prefer Oshie based on his potential, but lets not forget Staal has high end potential as well.


The underrating of Staal's value by some Blues fans in this thread is astounding. As is the overrating of Oshie by some of the same.


Case in point. Again, perhaps they wouldnt, but to say they wouldnt even consider it is ludicrous and pure hyperbole.

And yes, Ive seen him play. Ive been watching him since college and have ALWAYS liked him (BTW, the whole "have you seen him play argument really isnt a good defense).
The overrating of Staal by some Pens fans in this thread is astounding. As is the underrating of Oshie and the Blues prospects by some of the same.

My point...it goes both ways, so get off your high horse.

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01-23-2011, 02:35 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
I'm claiming that Richards and Staal(both Canadian) had a shorter pathway to the NHL, probably aided by coming up through better hockey programs and playing in much better junior leagues. Oshie is an American who took a longer path to the NHL, it happens all the time(Canadian hockey programs are better than American hockey programs).
You make it sound like the USHL and UND are backwater programs...

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01-23-2011, 02:36 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
I'm claiming that Richards and Staal(both Canadian) had a shorter pathway to the NHL, probably aided by coming up through better hockey programs and playing in much better junior leagues. Oshie is an American who took a longer path to the NHL, it happens all the time(Canadian hockey programs are better than American hockey programs).
Whatever your opinion, comparing players' totals from their first 3 years when they started at 18 and 22 is hardly a level playing field.

It'd be like putting Goligoski and Pietrangelo's career totals side-by-side and trying to argue that Goligoski is the more impressive player. Not so fair when you approach it from the angle, is it?

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01-23-2011, 02:38 PM
  #123
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Blues fans are in love with Oshie and most Pens fans think that unless a forward scores 80+ points there's no way they can be as valuable as Staal. That's basically where we're at.

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01-23-2011, 02:45 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Blues fans are in love with Oshie and most Pens fans think that unless a forward scores 80+ points there's no way they can be as valuable as Staal. That's basically where we're at.
So true! Thus this discussion probably doesn't need to move further.

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01-23-2011, 02:51 PM
  #125
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So true! Thus this discussion probably doesn't need to move further.
There's nothing wrong with liking what you've seen from Oshie. Also I like Staal but my god as good of a two way player that he is people have already forgotten that the team didn't miss a beat defensively without him.

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