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Would somebody please put an end to Lemaire?

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Old
10-09-2003, 06:56 AM
  #26
aylib
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetalninja
Just got back from the Hawks/Wild game, and what can you say *snooze*. The league at some point has to make it clear to the refs that clutching and grabbing, picking and holding must be called every 30 seconds if its going on.

I have yet to watch the tape of the game(to see if its any different), but I mean it was pathetic tonight in person. For the Wild to triple the PP chances that the hawks had, was a joke.

Look I'm trying to be diplomatic about this. its like holding in football- you can call interference all the time in hockey, and the refs choose not to do it. But I'm not joking here, everytime a forward for the wild was backchecking- he was slowing down the nearest hawk. On the PP, the Wild would literally set a screen for their Dman to shoot a slap shot. When the hawks tried to get a forecheck going they would be held up or picked coming into the offensive zone.

Btw, Wild fans. Before you skewer me I just wanted you to know that Alexander Daigle was your best player tonight. I don't know if that's good or bad- but he was...

-fullmetalninja
Look at penalties for that game, CHI with 1 hooking, 3 holdings, 2 interferences, 1 tripping.

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Old
10-09-2003, 07:56 AM
  #27
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If you don't think the trap is about clutching and grabbing, I've got some swamp land to sell you.

Let me set this up as easily as I can....

I am not denying the fact that the hawks penalties were indeed penalties(although some were cheap IMO, but whatever). What I have a problem with is the fact that the Wild- who attempt to take away speed(how do you think they do that in practice?) not only don't take more penalties--- THEY TAKE LESS!

And not just less than the hawks. they take less penalites than almost any team. You tell me how? Its all becasue of good positioning? sure....

I wouldn't be *****ing if the penalties were even up... And throw out obvious penalties like High Sticking- but that wasn't the case. And while I don't watch every wild game, I've seen enough to know that it isn't just the hawks... the vast majority of games they out PP their opponents.

Why is this? Is it some conspiracy... of course not. Its that their coach while he was with NJ, and now with The Wild knows that they won't call passive obstruction. And they certainly won't call it if it occurs about every 30 seconds.

And trying to blame the hawk Rookies for these calls is ridiculous. You wanna see hawk mistakes, there will be plenty of them on Friday night against Colorado, when we are holding on for dear life. But I can't see how anyone could have been at the game, watched the game, or whatever and would say- yea the hawks took 3x the number of penalties.

-fullmetalninja

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10-09-2003, 08:26 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proby24
The Wild is what happens when you dilute the talent base too much. Just horrible, horrible hockey. Hopefully we will get one silver lining to the inevitable lockout and that's contraction. Not that I am saying that Minnesota should be necessarily one of the teams to fold, I believe they have a great, knowledgeable fan base.
Blame it on Bettman... he has killed this great sport.
Well, I would contract the Blackhawks, no matter what anyone would say. I don't care if they are an original six team or not, their ownership is one of the worst and I don't think Ruutu is going to stay long if they don't open up their wallets and get some talent back in there.

 
Old
10-09-2003, 08:34 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
"Boring hockey". "Clutching and grabbing".

The all-too-common lament of fans of inferior teams. This altruistic "for the good of the game" mantra is more boring than the trap itself, IMO. And it's insincere.

Seems to this fan that if one finds the Wild boring, one can avoid watching them. And, if one really finds the NHL so boring, one can easily find another sport. Seriously. And, if the unfairness of all the clutching and grabbing that has gone on in the sport since the beginning of time is too unbearable, the Ice Capades may be an alternative form of entertainment on ice.

If wide-open, pond hockey is what one wants, watch the New York Rangers. Wide open, exciting hockey....and six years without a playoff appearance.

Put an "end to Lemaire"? Punish success?

Hockey fans will always enjoy the game, whether it is tight-checking or homerun derby on ice. If this style doesn't appeal to the "casual fan" or the TV networks, too bad.

Just my opinion.
I'm agree with you, the trap is probably the better way to have success with a limited team in talent and guys who are welling to swet!!!

The point is not that the trp is not effective, or should'nd be played, the point is that the trp would'nt exist if the rules were respected.

BTW, seeing that the way to refereed is not on his way to change, I would be glad to bring back Lemaire in Mtl and some guys who are not affraid to work.

BJ21

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Old
10-09-2003, 10:14 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier

Funny thing: winning never is boring. And the end justifies the means.
Maybe winning is never boring to you but it is to me. I've turned games off (when my own team is playing) b/c they were terribly slow and boring with the whistle blowing every other minute b/c someone's icing the puck etc.

Later on, I'll check the scoreboard and go: "Yay, the Canucks won... glad I didn't have to suffer through that snoozefest of a win though."

I'd much rather watch an exciting, fast and hard-hitting game that has a lot of flow to it and in the end, either tie or lose in OT. But that's just me.

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Old
10-09-2003, 10:15 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisshockeyAcademy
When a Sutter is coaching you will not be a technically sound team, positioning is not the mantra as much as hard work and accountability.
Tired argument. I've seen both Brian and Darryl here in Calgary and it's obvious they are two very different types of coaches. Your generalization fits Brian quite well but I don't think it fits Darryl. Face the reality, these brothers are not clones of each other and have had very different careers, coaches and mentors. There's obviously going to be a difference in style and you can see it when you watch the two teams they coach.

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Old
10-09-2003, 10:45 AM
  #32
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While I agree with whomever said that the clutching and grabbing has nothing to do with the Trap, I do believe that both are big reasons why the NHL isn't as popular as it could be.

Both slow the game down. The clutching and grabbing obviously hinders the game's best, fastest and most skilled players from doing what they do best. The end result is low-scoring games featuring dump and chase hockey with the majority of the game being played in the neutral zone. And few, if any, jaw dropping plays/moves/goals to be replayed on SportsCenter, and good publicity is one thing the NHL desperately needs. We have the world's best players being reduced to playing chippy, uncoordinated hockey when they could be selling out arenas left and right if they were given any room at all to showcase their skills.

The Trap smothers the game with the same result. Although that's more defensive strategy than the cheating that is clutch, grab and hold hockey. It's still painfully boring. I understand why it's done, but I also understand that it's killing the marketability of hockey. You watch an NFL game, and there's practically a yellow flag thrown on every other play. Good. Sometimes it's annoying, but you can barely get away with anything in the NFL. That will eventually result in players being much more conscientious of their own play, and not taking stupid penalties that cost their team.

Take a look at the majority of the games being broadcast on ABC and ESPN (in the states). ABC is showing like 23 Red Wing games, 21 Avalanche games, etc etc. Why do you think that is? Granted, the Red Wings are not the offensive powerhouse they used to be, but they are certainly no Trap team. They play an up-tempo brand of hockey that anyone can watch with marketable stars. And the Avalanche, well, they're pretty much all offense now, and again, with several of the biggest household name stars in the game.

We, as huge hockey fans, will watch the games regardless. But it's the non-diehards that the NHL needs to target, to suck in and entrance (as we all were at some point). And the Trap is not going to help. You need a product that gets people out of their seats screaming and cheering. The Wild losing to the frickin' Blackhawks 1-0 is not an example of this.

 
Old
10-09-2003, 11:49 AM
  #33
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I would say in response to a 1-0 Blackhawk win over the Wild that picking one game is not indicative of the entire league. Hockey is not going to do well in the US no matter what. Sure we should have less teams, and going to Bobby Smith's new " line" theory would help too. You cannot legislate against positions players take up on the ice. if a team was so inclined it could put five players in the blue ice around the net. What the NHL needs to do is do the best they can with what they have and line up salaries with revenue. No you will not be the NFL but who is? There are bad matchups and bad games in the NFL , MLB and the NBA. The Chi v Minn game is one game. Because of this game we have the latest spin on how the game sucks. I love the game as it is, and the casual fan in the US is unlikely to become a diehard because each team has found one more goal per game on average.

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Old
10-09-2003, 12:32 PM
  #34
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Crystal(M)eth - First, an apology. I mistakenly deleted your last post, as I was trying to reply to it.

Now, my reply: regarding the "wallet" comment, I took no pleasure in making it. However, if you question one's grasp of economics, expect to get called out on it.

Clarifying further: I don't "like" the trap. I believe it is a red herring, however, to equate it with hockey's "lack of popularity". Again, history simply doesn't support that opinion. It may be turning some established "hockey fans" away, and that is a valid concern. But it is not the reason why new fans aren't flocking to the game, at least there is absolutely no evidence that I know of to support that theory.

Should the sport retain the status quo and not seek to grow? Of course not, and I concede that some changes may need to be made. But I am very, very hesitant to make major modifications to the on-ice product, to draw the "casual fan". You see, the casual or new fan will base their interest in the sport based, in large part, on media dissemination. Yes, in theory, getting them out to a game in person should pique their interest, but before they make that commitment, something typically must attract them to the sport. As you suggested, for some reason, it doesn't play well on TV, though HDTV hopefully will change that. And, more importantly (and unfortunately), the game typically gets horrible publicity from sports hacks around the US who position the sport as "WWF on ice". (Amazingly, more than a decade since the NHL has cracked down big-time on fighting, that miserable stereotyping still exists.) Opening up the ice and scoring opportunities will not change their closed minds, I'm afraid.

I share your concern for the long-term financial viability of the NHL we both love to watch and play. (Though I am not nearly as pessimistic about its future as you seem to be.) I think the degree to which we would go about trying to improve it may differ somewhat. Do not misinterpret my disdain for TV and how it has negatively the "product" of other sports, as a lack of understanding that the NHL suffers a major marketing problem in the U.S.

Final point: While holding up the NFL as the standard in sports marketing is commendable, IMO, it is an unattainable and impractical goal/model for the NHL. For a variety of reason.

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10-09-2003, 01:31 PM
  #35
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Do you want an injured goalie or do you want a healthy goalie?

 
Old
10-09-2003, 01:54 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Guess you are talking about that "inferior" team in NJ that's won three Cups in nine years, and made four Final appearances total. Or that "inferior" Ottawa team that deploys a hybrid trapping system.

As for your last sentence: like I said, the lament of fans of the losing side. You can have an exciting, fast-skating non-trapping team that won one round last spring. I'm sure the fans in Minnesota preferred a "boring" team that advanced to the Conference Finals.

Funny thing: winning never is boring. And the end justifies the means.
Oh go stick a fork in your bloody rolled eyes. I said *nothing* about New Jersey and Ottawa, because they *DON'T* play the style we were talking about. But hey, nice "debating" technique there, you managed to get everyone off-topic and talking about the trap instead of the issue at hand.

As for your last sentence, that completely explains everything. The end *never* justifies the means. That's just a platitude to soothe the conscience of those who know they cheated or acted immorally or illegally.

That's the kind of crap Bobby Clark spouts to justify the fact that he went out in '72 to deliberately injure the opposition.

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Old
10-09-2003, 02:20 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
If the NFL could adopt such an extreme rule like that, and it obviously didnt hurt the integrity of the game..why can't the NHL make some simple changes?

We've found consensus. With the possible exception of the redline change, I would not take much issue with any of those modifications. And, they would likely contribute to the game opening up a bit.

The real issue is whether that effect would make the game more attractive to the casual fan. Those nuances would appeal to you and me, but would not attract the average US sports fan who has mild-to-no interest in hockey, IMO.

I'd happily accept being wrong on this point.

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Old
10-09-2003, 02:27 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
That's just a platitude to soothe the conscience of those who know they cheated or acted immorally or illegally.
Who exactly is "cheating" or acting "immorally or illegally" in this discussion? The teams playing the trap? Your's truly?

(You can get violent with that emoticon too, if you wish, but it's an honest question.)

Also lost me on the comparsion between Clarke's two-hand chop and the trap (and any clutching/holding one attaches to it.).

Will gladly engage in the debate as you wish to steer it, BTW.

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Old
10-09-2003, 03:27 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColAvsFan
While I agree with whomever said that the clutching and grabbing has nothing to do with the Trap, I do believe that both are big reasons why the NHL isn't as popular as it could be.

Both slow the game down. The clutching and grabbing obviously hinders the game's best, fastest and most skilled players from doing what they do best. The end result is low-scoring games featuring dump and chase hockey with the majority of the game being played in the neutral zone. And few, if any, jaw dropping plays/moves/goals to be replayed on SportsCenter, and good publicity is one thing the NHL desperately needs. We have the world's best players being reduced to playing chippy, uncoordinated hockey when they could be selling out arenas left and right if they were given any room at all to showcase their skills.

The Trap smothers the game with the same result. Although that's more defensive strategy than the cheating that is clutch, grab and hold hockey. It's still painfully boring. I understand why it's done, but I also understand that it's killing the marketability of hockey. You watch an NFL game, and there's practically a yellow flag thrown on every other play. Good. Sometimes it's annoying, but you can barely get away with anything in the NFL. That will eventually result in players being much more conscientious of their own play, and not taking stupid penalties that cost their team.

Take a look at the majority of the games being broadcast on ABC and ESPN (in the states). ABC is showing like 23 Red Wing games, 21 Avalanche games, etc etc. Why do you think that is? Granted, the Red Wings are not the offensive powerhouse they used to be, but they are certainly no Trap team. They play an up-tempo brand of hockey that anyone can watch with marketable stars. And the Avalanche, well, they're pretty much all offense now, and again, with several of the biggest household name stars in the game.

We, as huge hockey fans, will watch the games regardless. But it's the non-diehards that the NHL needs to target, to suck in and entrance (as we all were at some point). And the Trap is not going to help. You need a product that gets people out of their seats screaming and cheering. The Wild losing to the frickin' Blackhawks 1-0 is not an example of this.
Very nice post, and your first one too!

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