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Nabokov claimed by Islanders. Will not report, suspended, & Can't be traded Part III

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01-23-2011, 07:07 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
Yeah, because NHL GM's are going to be so eager to help other GM's they are competing with sign players for less than market value for a draft pick.
But some GMs do help each other out. You didn't know that?

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01-23-2011, 07:08 PM
  #102
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Most of this discussion is REALLY missing the point here.

The Islanders had every right to claim Nabby, absolutely, no question.

What is relevant at this point is that Nabby does not want to play there. Forcing a player to play for you when they clearly do not want to NEVER ends well.

I know some of you will say "Nabby needs to have a better attitude", he doesn't. That's who he is and that is not going to change. He does not want to play there, he's not going to want to, and Snow should be smart enough at this point to say "I don't want to introduce that kind of cancer into my organization". Forcing Nabby to play at this point does not help the Islanders in anyway. It will more likely do considerable damage to both the org and Nabby stats. Plus, as Nabby said, he's not ready to play right now. He needs time to get back into game shape, and clearly the Islanders want him available to play immediately.

I honestly have no idea what Snow's angle is. He can punish Nabby if he wants, but it won't help the Islanders.

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01-23-2011, 07:08 PM
  #103
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If the Islanders totally tank his stats then he won't even get a new contract next year anyway.

I don't blame Nabby on bit. His best move is to wait and see if Snow backs down, if he doesn't, retire and go work for the Sharks as a goalie coach or something.

you know that's just ridiculous. Biron had crummy stats as an Islander. He got a contract. Roloson had crummy stats as an Islander, teams were interested in trading for him.

Please let's not have this sport turn into baseball where fans think stats are the end all and be all.

It's insulting to GMs for you to insinuate that if Nabokov goes i don't know 9-15-6 with a 890 Save % and 3.50 GAA as an Islander that they would think he's done as a goalie.

If you know it, then the GMs know it too. It isn't exactly a secret anyway. The Islanders are a very bad team.

Besides, why should he care about his stats anyway if he is going to be willing to just retire next year? According to you if he has a lousy year with the NYI, then he won't get a contract. Well he DEFINITELY won't get a contract if he sits out. So how on earth is this being smart on his part? Snow owes him nothing. There is no incentive for the NYI to put him back on waivers.

At this time yesterday I felt they should put him back on waivers, but then I learned about the NYI ability to toll the contract & be able to trade him without going through the waiver process in the summer. So now he turns into an asset.

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01-23-2011, 07:09 PM
  #104
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And the Islanders still don't have a new goalie. So how was this smart GMing?
when did i say it was smart?
someone asked why it was done and i explained.

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01-23-2011, 07:11 PM
  #105
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He said it was a possibility. No one with any credit to their name said it can not happen. You are not an insider, all you have is opinion based on wishes and fairy tails
Ah... so he wasn't tolled. Its a possibility that he could toll him if he wants to attemp that route?

So basically our coversion just went a 360 and we're back where we started. Lol. *if* Snow tries to toll him. ;D

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01-23-2011, 07:11 PM
  #106
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You are not an insider, all you have is opinion based on wishes and fairy tails
To be fair, that's all we have, too.

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01-23-2011, 07:12 PM
  #107
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when did i say it was smart?
someone asked why it was done and i explained.
Fine. As long as it's understood that Garth Snow is a complete moron, we're in agreement here.

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01-23-2011, 07:12 PM
  #108
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To be fair, that's all we have, too.
We have some basis of facts and NHL people saying it is possible. The other side of the argument does not.

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01-23-2011, 07:14 PM
  #109
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To be fair, that's all we have, too.
Arguably the best avatar on HFBoards, tip of the hat to you sir.

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01-23-2011, 07:15 PM
  #110
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Arguably the best avatar on HFBoards, tip of the hat to you sir.
Nah I have the best

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01-23-2011, 07:19 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
Fine. As long as it's understood that Garth Snow is a complete moron, we're in agreement here.
you are more than welcome to feel that way if you so desire. just as im free to feel the oposite way. so we are not in agreement.
garth tried to repair a hole in the islanders goaltending situation caused by an injury to nathan lawson. THAT is what a GOOD GENERAL MANAGER does.
because meehan lied when he said nabakov would report if claimed and garth claimed him, that does not make him a "complete moron".

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01-23-2011, 07:20 PM
  #112
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We have some basis of facts and NHL people saying it is possible. The other side of the argument does not.
We understand the facts. *IF* Snow decides he wants try and attempt the toll route. Where is the facts that's a sure fire thing? Where is the facts that Snow wants to spend all the money, time and resources to toll someone that may not get toll'd by the NHL, or if NHLPA decide to fight this? What is the long term reward for the efforts? A disgruntled goalie with a NMC? And, in your fantasy, who would. Trade a pick for a russian goalie with a bad attitude that has a NMC?

Let's explore the basis of the facts...

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01-23-2011, 07:20 PM
  #113
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If they tolled (which won't happen), I'm sure the same rules apply, he would have to be placed on waivers. They can't just trade him. He could go rogue and refuse to exersize his NMC just to be a jerk and disrupt the locker room.

All this is just speculation.
It is very likley that if the Isles request that his SPC be tolled, that the NHL would fully support that position.

The League's position is the one codified in the League Rules and recognized under the Yashin arbitration decision.

The League cannot pick and choose how it enforces it or it may lose the right to enforce it in some other case.

There is no reason to assume that if the SPC were tolled that the Waiver/Trade restrictions would apply to that second year - and no way to support that assumption under the wording of the CBA. Those restrictions are in place until the end of the Playing Season (including Playoffs) in the season in which he is claimed. It would be no different that if Nabby had signed a two-year deal - the trade restrictions would have been in place for the remainder of this year but not in the second year.

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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
First of all, you can be damn sure the rule about tolling a contract is written somewhere in the CBA that the NHLPA agreed too. So there would be absolutely nothing they could do.

Secondly, they aren't "extending" the contract. All contract's signed are for the full year. Nabokov is just not getting paid for the full year, because he didn't work for the full year. He would be getting paid for the time he worked.
Actually the rule about tolling is not (directly) in the CBA.

The CBA is silent on the matter of enforcing specific performance of an SPC.

In the 2000 Yashin decision, arbiter Lawrence Holden ruled that since the CBA did not cover the case, the disposition reverted to rulings made by the League during the Zeigler/Stein era which were then implicitly included in the CBA as part of the League Rules.

The wildcard here is any bargaining history during the '05 CBA negotiations. The subject of specific performance came up during the 1995 CBA negotiations - but the sides agreed to maintain the status quo. If the subject was broached again in the current CBA negotiations, even if no change was codified in the CBA, it is possible that might change the disposition in a future arbitration. If Nabby's SPC were tolled the NHLPA would surely grieve and there would be another arbitration hearing - Holden's Yashin decision would not be a binding precedent but would likely hold significant weight with the arbiter.

For those of you with too much time on your hands - I found a copy of a paper with the full text of the Yashin decision. The old link I had for it was dead - but thank you Internet Archive Wayback Machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/200510260...tsinSports.pdf


Last edited by kdb209: 01-23-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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01-23-2011, 07:23 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by NHLzodiac View Post
Ah... so he wasn't tolled. Its a possibility that he could toll him if he wants to attemp that route?

So basically our coversion just went a 360 and we're back where we started. Lol. *if* Snow tries to toll him. ;D
NHLZodiac, are you truly that stupid?

McKenzie said: "The Isles can request that the contract be tolled"

Mckenzie was given this information by the League it was not information he came up with himself. The NHL selectively feeds information to credible outlets to get the info out there to effectively nudge a desired outcome, and not have to come down on things hard unless they have to.

If They cannot enforce their will in a subtle manner, do not be so foolish as to believe they will do what they must, much as they did in the Kovalchuk situation, remember how they "advised" New jersey first? when that didnt work, they did what they had to

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01-23-2011, 07:27 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
It is very likley that if the Isles request that his SPC be tolled, that the NHL would fully support that position.

The League's position is the one codified in the League Rules and recognized under the Yashin arbitration decision.

The League cannot pick and choose how it enforces it or it may lose the right to enforce it in some other case.

There is no reason to assume that if the SPC were tolled that the Waiver/Trade restrictions would apply to that second year - and no way to support that assumption under the wording of the CBA. Those restrictions are in place until the end of the Playing Season (including Playoffs) in the season in which he is claimed. It would be no different that if Nabby had signed a two-year deal - the trade restrictions would have been in place for the remainder of this year but not in the second year.



Actually the rule about tolling is not (directly) in the CBA.

The CBA is silent on the matter of enforcing specific performance of an SPC.

In the 2000 Yashin decision, arbiter Lawrence Holden ruled that since the CBA did not cover the case, the disposition reverted to rulings made by the League during the Zeigler/Stein era which were then implicitly included in the CBA as part of the League Rules.

The wildcard here is any bargaining history during the '05 CBA negotiations. The subject of specific performance came up during the 1995 CBA negotiations - but the sides agreed to maintain the status quo. If the subject was broached again in the current CBA negotiations, even if no change was codified in the CBA, it is possible that might change the disposition in a future arbitration. If Nabby's SPC were tolled the NHLPA would surely grieve and there would be another arbitration hearing - Holden's Yashin decision would not be a binding precedent but would likely hold significant weight with the arbiter.
Excellent summary KDB, you are right on point with youre analysis

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01-23-2011, 07:27 PM
  #116
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Fine. As long as it's understood that Garth Snow is a complete moron, we're in agreement here.
Takes one to know one perhaps?

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01-23-2011, 07:29 PM
  #117
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We understand the facts. *IF* Snow decides he wants try and attempt the toll route. Where is the facts that's a sure fire thing? Where is the facts that Snow wants to spend all the money, time and resources to toll someone that may not get toll'd by the NHL, or if NHLPA decide to fight this? What is the long term reward for the efforts? A disgruntled goalie with a NMC? And, in your fantasy, who would. Trade a pick for a russian goalie with a bad attitude that has a NMC?

Let's explore the basis of the facts...
KDB and Isles Guy explain all that is known on this subject right now. The facts lean in the Isles favor

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01-23-2011, 07:30 PM
  #118
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If Nabby's SPC were tolled the NHLPA would surely grieve and there would be another arbitration hearing
any idea on what grounds the NHLPA would site in their grievence?

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01-23-2011, 07:33 PM
  #119
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NHLZodiac, are you truly that stupid?

McKenzie said: "The Isles can request that the contract be tolled"

Mckenzie was given this information by the League it was not information he came up with himself. The NHL selectively feeds information to credible outlets to get the info out there to effectively nudge a desired outcome, and not have to come down on things hard unless they have to.

If They cannot enforce their will in a subtle manner, do not be so foolish as to believe they will do what they must, much as they did in the Kovalchuk situation, remember how they "advised" New jersey first? when that didnt work, they did what they had to
Reorting to personal attacks doesn't help your swiss cheese arguement. Facts remain the same, Snow has not attempted tolling the contract. Nobody said he will. But you keep on insisting he did, and he will be successful if he does attempt it.

Please don't resort to personal attacks, no sense in getting needless infractions over something unimportant.

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01-23-2011, 07:36 PM
  #120
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KDB and Isles Guy explain all that is known on this subject right now. The facts lean in the Isles favor
I'll wait for the official report if Snow chooses to take it that far. I'm not convinced NHL will accept it as it will open up a new loophole.

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01-23-2011, 07:37 PM
  #121
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any idea on what grounds the NHLPA would site in their grievence?
They would most likely cite the fact that situations such as this were not covered in the CBA, and that Holden's Yashin decision was not entirely on point, which it really isnt, However The NHLPA would not wish to really argue this case, because it would undermine The value of all existing contracts

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01-23-2011, 07:39 PM
  #122
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I'll wait for the official report if Snow chooses to take it that far. I'm not convinced NHL will accept it as it will open up a new loophole.
Please explain the loophole to me and everyone else. I see the loophole if the contract is asked to be tolled by Snow and is not. I fail to see the loophole in denying a toll.

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01-23-2011, 07:42 PM
  #123
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Reorting to personal attacks doesn't help your swiss cheese arguement. Facts remain the same, Snow has not attempted tolling the contract. Nobody said he will. But you keep on insisting he did, and he will be successful if he does attempt it.

Please don't resort to personal attacks, no sense in getting needless infractions over something unimportant.
He can't toll the contract to next year until it's been determined and established as fact that Nabokov has defaulted on his contract for THIS YEAR.

That has not yet occurred.

Logic is not your strong suit, is it?

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01-23-2011, 07:42 PM
  #124
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Thanks, nice of you to say.

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01-23-2011, 07:46 PM
  #125
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Reorting to personal attacks doesn't help your swiss cheese arguement. Facts remain the same, Snow has not attempted tolling the contract. Nobody said he will. But you keep on insisting he did, and he will be successful if he does attempt it.

Please don't resort to personal attacks, no sense in getting needless infractions over something unimportant.
it wasnt a personal attack, I asked do you honestly believe Bobby Mac came up with that on his own? are you truly that naive to think that the league did not feed him that information? and that it wasnt done for a reason? its an honest question, please answer it

I have never said Snow requested the league to toll the contract, I have said The release of Bobby Macs report indicates that the league has considered the possibility of doing so, as a subtle reminder that they will exert their influence if they are forced to.....much as they did in the Kovalchuk situation

As KDB said The league has every reason to protect their interests here

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