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Proposal - J. Staal/P. Dupuis for B.Boyes and T.J. Oshie

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Old
01-23-2011, 09:00 PM
  #151
Celtic Note
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Again, the plan from the start of the season has been to put Malkin on Staal's wing. Injuries derailed it.

Further, Staal has already contributed plenty in his role as a 3rd line center and is more than worth his 4 mil per in Pittsburgh - dealing him off for older, lesser players so he could potentially get more points on another team isn't a priority for the Pens.



That's a risk Pittsburgh has no reason to take. If the Pens want to put a player who's had limited opportunity with skill players a chance to improve his totals, they can do it in-house. As they've planned to.

Worst-case scenario with Staal, they still have a 22 year old behemoth who can dominate defensively, put up ~50 points on the 3rd line, and step up his game in the playoffs. Worst-case scenario with Boyes is that they've traded away a huge part of their Cup team for a mediocre scoring wing who doesn't bring much else to the table.



Yep.



How do you define a #1 center?
I hadn't heard about moving Malkin to the wing. Seems a waste to me, but could work out with Staal seeing more time.

As for the center, he would have to be a decent sized, PPG or very close, player who isn't one-dimensional.

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01-23-2011, 09:18 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
I hadn't heard about moving Malkin to the wing. Seems a waste to me, but could work out with Staal seeing more time.
Yep.

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As for the center, he would have to be a decent sized, PPG or very close, player who isn't one-dimensional.
A multi-dimensional PPG center?

Sounds like you've got much, much higher standards for your prospective 1st line center than you expect others to have for their 1st line winger. Giving up an EJ or a Petro for a PPG multi-dimensional center is a lot easier to swallow than dealing Staal for a strictly offensive winger who's a year plus removed from anything close to a PPG.

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01-23-2011, 09:41 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
Of course Richards does it better... he has played over 400 games and is in his sixth NHL season. He has refined his game. TJ Oshie is in just his third season.


TJ Oshie in his first three seasons:

Goals Per Game: 0.23
Assists Per Game: 0.43
Points Per Game: 0.66


Mike Richards in his first three seasons:

Goals Per Game: 0.23
Assists Per Game: 0.43
Points Per Game: 0.66


Jordan Staal in his first three seasons:

Goals Per Game: 0.26
Assists Per Game: 0.23
Points Per Game: 0.49
Thank you for clearing that up. Your original post led me to believe that you were comparing the two right now, as you never mentioned Oshie reminds you of Richards in his first three seasons.
Now it makes much more sense obviously.

As far as the PPG argument, keep in mind that in two of Oshie's first three seasons he has missed a significant number of games thus calling into question whether he would have maintained those projections had he not been so unfortunate.

Again, Im a HUGE fan of the guy and have been since I used to watch him battle it out at North Dakota (Got heavily into college hockey back when Goligoski was a freshman at Minny-Oshie made the NCAA jump the following year).
I simply think that those who are laughing at the idea that Staal is comparable are either underrating Staal or overrating Oshie, because a compelling argument can (and has been in this thread) be made for either player.

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01-23-2011, 09:44 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
McClement gets the toughest defensive assignments also so do most defensive centers. There are many players that are 3rd line grinders that get the toughest defensive assignments that don't play on as good of teams as Pitt, Detroit or Van. Yet they are every bit as good or better defensively as the top vote getters for the Selke they just don't have the flashy offensive numbers or the team success to be nominated for the Selke. Team success and name play a lot into who wins awards in the NHL. McClement was a top 5 in Selke voting before while playing on a much lesser team with worse offensive numbers btw. Also part of the top penalty kill in the league last season on a team that under performed.

Market and offensive output play a role in the Selke even is it is suppose to be for the best defensive forward. The best defensive forward in the league playing on the worst team in the league would never be considered for the Selke due to team success factoring in all NHL awards regardless of what they say they are for.

Also this season Pitt has had a pretty successful penalty kill while Staal has missed a majority of the season. One could argue Staal's defensive success is as much a product of a team that was still good in PK situation minus Staal.
Thats all well and good, and Im not dismissing McClement by any stretch of the imagination. I just think he is a step below Staal defensively and a few steps below him as an all around player.

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01-23-2011, 09:56 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Although the Selke is supposed to go to the best defensive player, it really goes to players who can score at least at a second line clip, while providing really good defense. Unfortunately there are players who are more deserving of the trophy that don't put up enough points. So, your Selke argument is pretty weak IMO, as is anyone else who uses it to judge the defensive abilities of a forward.
Unfortunately, that is the standard we live by other than what we watch with our own eyes and compare it with the knowledge we have. Basically, we are left with subjective opinion.
Weak argument or not, I base it mostly on my opinion as any stat you or I could throw out to bolster our claim could be easily skewed/ripped apart and one of us could tell the other that "it is a weak argument"

Or do you think McClement is Staals equal?
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
You have a few really good defensive centers?
Yes actually we do. One is the player mentioned in Jordan Staal. Another is the exact type of player you described above in Craig Adams. A third good defensive center we have is none other than Sidney Crosby. That would qualify as a few although I was talking about bottom six forwards who are excellent in there own end to which I could give you a few more names if you would like.

Point being, we have no need for more of this type of player. Especially if Staal is going the other way (I realise it is a package deal and there are others involved, we just simply have no need for any more bottom six defensive specialists. Were swimming in them right now).

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01-23-2011, 09:56 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Yep.



A multi-dimensional PPG center?

Sounds like you've got much, much higher standards for your prospective 1st line center than you expect others to have for their 1st line winger. Giving up an EJ or a Petro for a PPG multi-dimensional center is a lot easier to swallow than dealing Staal for a strictly offensive winger who's a year plus removed from anything close to a PPG.
I have much higher standards for the 1st line center of my team then my 1st line wingers too. Your top two centers are crucial to your offensive output. But I would value my top two wingers more than my 3rd line center, unless I am trying to run a balanced three line system, which means I have a much more balanced financial payroll amongst my forwards.

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01-23-2011, 09:58 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
Unfortunately, that is the standard we live by other than what we watch with our own eyes and compare it with the knowledge we have. Basically, we are left with subjective opinion.
Weak argument or not, I base it mostly on my opinion as any stat you or I could throw out to bolster our claim could be easily skewed/ripped apart and one of us could tell the other that "it is a weak argument"

Or do you think McClement is Staals equal?



Yes actually we do. One is the player mentioned in Jordan Staal. Another is the exact type of player you described above in Craig Adams. A third good defensive center we have is none other than Sidney Crosby. That would qualify as a few although I was talking about bottom six forwards who are excellent in there own end to which I could give you a few more names if you would like.

Point being, we have no need for more of this type of player. Especially if Staal is going the other way (I realise it is a package deal and there are others involved, we just simply have no need for any more bottom six defensive specialists. Were swimming in them right now).
Defensively its a lot closer than you believe.

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01-23-2011, 10:05 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
The overrating of Staal by some Pens fans in this thread is astounding. As is the underrating of Oshie and the Blues prospects by some of the same.

My point...it goes both ways, so get off your high horse.
Whoa! Easy there buckaroo. Ive explained my points rather clearly as to why I think that.
To simply dismiss the notion that Staal is NOT an equal to Oshie is either underrating Staal or overrating Oshie.

I think thats quite reasonable and in no way puts me on a high horse for daring to believe the two's value is somewhere around equal.
Sorry that it struck a nerve.

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01-23-2011, 10:12 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
Whoa! Easy there buckaroo. Ive explained my points rather clearly as to why I think that.
To simply dismiss the notion that Staal is NOT an equal to Oshie is either underrating Staal or overrating Oshie.

I think thats quite reasonable and in no way puts me on a high horse for daring to believe the two's value is somewhere around equal.
Sorry that it struck a nerve.
That was in response to the arrogance that came from your post. That really struck a nerve with me. Ok buckaroo?

Maybe if people stuck to rational argument rather than fanning their egos we could continue with interesting, respectful discussion. (thats aimed at everyone who engages in snide remarks...myself, at times, included)

In response to Staal not being Oshie's equal... Its hard to say who will be better. Staal has been the better player over their careers. But I am not sure he will be the better in the long run. It could go either way. Regardless, Oshies value is worth enough to the Blues that they wouldn't trade him for Staal.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 01-23-2011 at 10:21 PM.
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01-23-2011, 10:25 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
I have much higher standards for the 1st line center of my team then my 1st line wingers too. Your top two centers are crucial to your offensive output. But I would value my top two wingers more than my 3rd line center, unless I am trying to run a balanced three line system, which means I have a much more balanced financial payroll amongst my forwards.
Then you're in a pretty convenient place, not having to admit that giving up a young player with upside for inferior, much older players to address a perceived need is an undesirable idea.

That being the case, it'll have to suffice to say that I value Staal's current contributions over the combined talents of Boyes and McClement, and his youth and upside only reinforce that conviction.

The Pens have had too much success with Crosby, Malkin, and Staal and very little else at forward to think that messing with that winning combination to obtain a winger like Boyes is good asset management.

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01-23-2011, 10:35 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Then you're in a pretty convenient place, not having to admit that giving up a young player with upside for inferior, much older players to address a perceived need is an undesirable idea.

That being the case, it'll have to suffice to say that I value Staal's current contributions over the combined talents of Boyes and McClement, and his youth and upside only reinforce that conviction.

The Pens have had too much success with Crosby, Malkin, and Staal and very little else at forward to think that messing with that winning combination to obtain a winger like Boyes is anything but prudent.
Not convenient enough. Finding that #1 center is gonna be one hell of a challenge.

There have been times as a Blues fan where we have given up the younger for the elder. Its worked out for us a bit and there are times when it hasn't.

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01-23-2011, 10:40 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
That was in response to the arrogance that came from your post. That really struck a nerve with me. Ok buckaroo?

Maybe if people stuck to rational argument rather than fanning their egos we could continue with interesting, respectful discussion. (thats aimed at everyone who engages in snide remarks...myself, at times, included)

In response to Staal not being Oshie's equal... Its hard to say who will be better. Staal has been the better player over their careers. But I am not sure he will be the better in the long run. It could go either way. Regardless, Oshies value is worth enough to the Blues that they wouldn't trade him for Staal.
If anything I said was taken as arrogant or snide in this thread I humbly apologize as I dont feel I went there at all. Ive explained my position and am comfortable being confident in it, while remaining open minded to the fact that others have differing opinions of value.

I suppose if you mistook that as arrogance then I would wonder about the arrogance of assuming to know ones intentions.

Perhaps they wouldnt trade him for Staal and perhaps they would. All of this is pure conjecture at this point as none of us are privvy to the inner management of our respective teams, no?

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01-23-2011, 10:41 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Not convenient enough. Finding that #1 center is gonna be one hell of a challenge.
No doubt. I'd rather not give him to you, though.

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There have been times as a Blues fan where we have given up the younger for the elder. Its worked out for us a bit and there are times when it hasn't.
Whenever you gave up the youngest, best player in the deal by a fair margin, I'm guessing it ended up badly.

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01-23-2011, 11:01 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No doubt. I'd rather not give him to you, though.



Whenever you gave up the youngest, best player in the deal by a fair margin, I'm guessing it ended up badly.
Injuries happen, life happens, for some older players the game just click and they evolve or just other unforseen thing, so it doesn't always end up bad. But, a good portion of the time it does. That why I don't blame fans for not wanting to make this trade.

Being a fan of Staal though I would like to see him given the chance to do more and being a fan of the Blues I would like to see him do it here. As for Boyes, I know he can regain form and would likely do it in PIT. He is a good guy and he cares, so I would like to see him do well too. He has worked hard to get better at his all around game and has aside from offensively. He also is a whipping boy here and I hope that he can go somewhere and not be.

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01-23-2011, 11:09 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
If anything I said was taken as arrogant or snide in this thread I humbly apologize as I dont feel I went there at all. Ive explained my position and am comfortable being confident in it, while remaining open minded to the fact that others have differing opinions of value.

I suppose if you mistook that as arrogance then I would wonder about the arrogance of assuming to know ones intentions.

Perhaps they wouldnt trade him for Staal and perhaps they would. All of this is pure conjecture at this point as none of us are privvy to the inner management of our respective teams, no?
Fair enough. We can move on from the unpleasant part of our discussions.

As far as not being privvy...no, none of us can know that, but I bet managers don't "know" what they will and will not do in close call situations either, as I assume such a trade would be. They most likely make a judgment call based on the information at hand and hope it all works out. As a fan this would be impossible to know if this is their thought process. But in listening to interviews, watching the team, looking at past trends and putting yourself in one's shoes, some fans can make a pretty good guess as to what would happen...that is if they stay subjective and leave their personal beliefs out of it (as much as one can).

I will acknowledge that I have been wrong in some of my predictions though. I didn't see the Halak trade nor the Dags trade coming at all.

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01-23-2011, 11:10 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Being a fan of Staal though I would like to see him given the chance to do more and being a fan of the Blues I would like to see him do it here. As for Boyes, I know he can regain form and would likely do it in PIT. He is a good guy and he cares, so I would like to see him do well too. He has worked hard to get better at his all around game and has aside from offensively. He also is a whipping boy here and I hope that he can go somewhere and not be.
Boyes could be a decent acquisition for the Pens - natural winger, RH shot, has shown a good nose for the net in the past. But given his recent history, Staal just isn't a reasonable return to target.

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01-24-2011, 08:58 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Fair enough. We can move on from the unpleasant part of our discussions.

As far as not being privvy...no, none of us can know that, but I bet managers don't "know" what they will and will not do in close call situations either, as I assume such a trade would be. They most likely make a judgment call based on the information at hand and hope it all works out. As a fan this would be impossible to know if this is their thought process. But in listening to interviews, watching the team, looking at past trends and putting yourself in one's shoes, some fans can make a pretty good guess as to what would happen...that is if they stay subjective and leave their personal beliefs out of it (as much as one can).

I will acknowledge that I have been wrong in some of my predictions though. I didn't see the Halak trade nor the Dags trade coming at all.
Fair enough. I agree that a fan can make an educated decison based on the information at hand (and you listed said information very well I might add). I also know management is usually tight lipped and uses alot of misdirection in the press which can sometimes make an educated guess rather difficult to decipher (deciphering between what MAY be true and what is being said for the sake of getting misguided "information" out there).

As far as being wrong, how's this one. When the Penguins let Matt Moulson walk for free and signed Connor James, I thought that James would be just as good of a player as Moulson (this due not so much thinking highly of James, just thinking Moulson wouldnt amount to much more than a fringe player). Now thats called missing the mark by a LOOONG shot!

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01-24-2011, 10:44 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Boyes could be a decent acquisition for the Pens - natural winger, RH shot, has shown a good nose for the net in the past. But given his recent history, Staal just isn't a reasonable return to target.
It's been this way for 2 years... so few people are willing to accept it and the scales haven't tipped even once.

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