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Old
01-25-2011, 02:58 PM
  #51
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wrong thread goldberg

No hockey allowed here

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01-25-2011, 02:58 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
Sick! Take pics!

Edit: Lots and lots of ****in pics!
Will do, but it isn't until September! Haha. Start growing now and I'll see you there!

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Old
01-25-2011, 03:01 PM
  #53
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Will do, but it isn't until September! Haha. Start growing now and I'll see you there!
I still have my playoff beard from last year -- it broke my heart too much to shave it. It was also the first time I really let it grow in, so liking it played a part in sticking around too.

I've got jaw/teeth issues going on though (reconstructive surgery), so I wanted to shave it to start anew for this year's run, but I don't know if it'll be worth it or if I'll be able to participate at all because of the procedures I'll be going through if I take that path.

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Old
01-25-2011, 03:25 PM
  #54
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enough to write a 40-50 page scientific paper for me?

If I could spend all the time I spend on HF writing it, I would be finished already
Hover, what's your major again?

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Old
01-25-2011, 03:53 PM
  #55
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Was going through supermarket circulars lookin' for deals to add to my shopping list.

I ended up writing down "Chicken Nodl soup" unintentionally...

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01-25-2011, 04:14 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Phileeguy View Post
Was going through supermarket circulars lookin' for deals to add to my shopping list.

I ended up writing down "Chicken Nodl soup" unintentionally...
Ha! Solid.

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01-25-2011, 04:17 PM
  #57
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To be as forward as possible, I can't remember most of why -- I read a book freshman year of college (two years ago) and so much, in school and out, has transpired since then that I'd need to re-read it to really be able to speak on it.

I'm also aware that one book isn't the whole story. You guys could probably tell me why I don't like him better than I could now, because it's been a while since I've had a legitimate history class (I'm and English major w/ a PoliSci minor...history and PS pretty much blended together in my high school, but the difference is obviously drastic at the next level).

One thing I can speak to is this idea to "save the union." I understand what you guys are saying about the "lost cause" being a lost cause itself when looked at objectively, but the union was always supposed to be voluntary. I feel that it took the bloodiest war in history at that point to "save" it speaks volumes. I also don't care for the direction we took afterward (Reconstruction) and feel most of our problems today in regard to the usurping of power from citizens can be traced back to then because of the measures Lincoln took. I feel there's going to be an inevitable comparison to measures FDR took, but I've always felt them more legitimate or, at worst, (and I know this is difficult to tangibly measure) with better intent.
Reconstruction likely wouldn't have been as bad had Lincoln survived. Lincoln seems to have not been vindictive at all; he would have been more intent on rehabilitating and rebuilding the South, especially since it would have been for the better good of the Union.

I assume your dislike of Lincoln stems from him likely instigating the war by his own fairly aggressive actions. I personally believe he did that. However, I don't fault him for that. It was clear that a conflict was going to happen, and in many ways Lincoln dictated how and when it would occur...I'm of the opinion that he forced the South to strike the first blow, which gave the Union the moral high ground and allowed him to argue that the seceded states were committing treason by revolting against their government. There are also the liberties he took with habeus corpus, and other measures. I don't know enough about poli sci to really comment on whatever effects those actions held, but I'd be more concerned about the things FDR did in WWII having an effect on our current situation.

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I've always wondered why the Union never said "**** 'em" and just let the south secede. Anyone care to enlighten me?
A lot of people in the North wanted to do that. In those days, it was still very much believed by many people that the United States government was sort of a coalition of the independent states, governing with their permission. The states entered it voluntarily, and many believed they should legally be able to leave. Many northerners kept up that argument throughout the war.

Others, including Lincoln, believed that to leave the Union was an act of treason, and illegal. When the Union won, it firmly cemented the Federal government as the supreme power in the land, and subordinated the state governments.

As far as why the North fought, the dominant argument at the time was that the South had attacked the Union. And well, the South did, at Sumter, and at various Union forts in the South that the CSA occupied. Nationalism and decades of antagonizing between the two regions did the rest.

This is actually a simplified explanation, and might be wide of the mark, Civil War history isn't really my specialty, and this is a complicated topic.


Also, Ochocinco is changing his name back to Chad Johnson, and is leaving Cincinnati. What a guy.

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01-25-2011, 04:36 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Reconstruction likely wouldn't have been as bad had Lincoln survived. Lincoln seems to have not been vindictive at all; he would have been more intent on rehabilitating and rebuilding the South, especially since it would have been for the better good of the Union.

I assume your dislike of Lincoln stems from him likely instigating the war by his own fairly aggressive actions. I personally believe he did that. However, I don't fault him for that. It was clear that a conflict was going to happen, and in many ways Lincoln dictated how and when it would occur...I'm of the opinion that he forced the South to strike the first blow, which gave the Union the moral high ground and allowed him to argue that the seceded states were committing treason by revolting against their government. There are also the liberties he took with habeus corpus, and other measures. I don't know enough about poli sci to really comment on whatever effects those actions held, but I'd be more concerned about the things FDR did in WWII having an effect on our current situation.
That's just it -- if slavery really was the lynch pin, I don't understand why conflict was viewed as necessary. From my understanding, it was phasing out elsewhere around the world and becoming increasingly difficult to be profitable. I also believe he essentially bated the South into making the first move...Sumter wasn't exactly a priority for re-supplying, and the warning was there that if the North came into those waters they'd be shot at.

In addition and also in my understanding, the Union was always voluntary, and is to this day. As such, there was and is no precedent for the accusation of treason. My opinion on FDR isn't necessarily based on a poli sci background, but largely that the country was already definitively one nation. I'm also aware this may be more intuitive than factual, which is why I didn't extensively comment. I'm sure there are plenty of points of interest I haven't considered.

If you're really curious, the book I referenced earlier is called The Real Lincoln by Thomas J. DiLorenzo. It's a fairly quick but thorough read. At certain points you can tell the author has his own agenda, but what I found so fascinating was the amount of primary sources referenced all throughout. The only things to consider in this sense are the reliability of an individual's account and natural human error, but I don't feel those are large enough to mitigate the information overall.

Quote:
Also, Ochocinco is changing his name back to Chad Johnson, and is leaving Cincinnati. What a guy.
I couldn't stand that he changed his name, so I'm ok with that. As for leaving Cincinnati, whatver. Also, I hate how Cincinnati is spelled.


Last edited by Terence Peterman: 01-25-2011 at 04:41 PM.
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Old
01-25-2011, 04:41 PM
  #59
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It took me 3 tries to spell that city correctly.

See, this is why I don't like saying "the Civil War was caused by slavery." It's important, and fueled the fire, but it's really much deeper than that.

edit: At the time many saw that slavery was not sustainable, that the idea of expanding it westward was a waste of time, and that it would die a natural death. A theory is that as industry was beginning to expand southward, it would give new life to slavery and would also be a serious threat to northern industry. So there's that, I guess.

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01-25-2011, 04:45 PM
  #60
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Got my 2TB HDD, but haven't installed it yet.

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Old
01-25-2011, 04:50 PM
  #61
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Got my 2TB HDD, but haven't installed it yet.
Portable?

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01-25-2011, 04:50 PM
  #62
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Also, Ochocinco is changing his name back to Chad Johnson, and is leaving Cincinnati. What a guy.
Aw, and here I was just getting used to calling him Ochocinco. As for him leaving Cincinnati, well someone had to go and Lewis wasn't going anywhere yet. Palmer also wants out.

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01-25-2011, 04:50 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
I still have my playoff beard from last year -- it broke my heart too much to shave it. It was also the first time I really let it grow in, so liking it played a part in sticking around too.

I've got jaw/teeth issues going on though (reconstructive surgery), so I wanted to shave it to start anew for this year's run, but I don't know if it'll be worth it or if I'll be able to participate at all because of the procedures I'll be going through if I take that path.
I've been living the beard life for a few years now consistently. Last time I shaved for party in 2008 where you had to have a moustache to get in and had it for about a year prior to that. So aside for like a one or two week period, I've had a beard since like end of 2006/beginning 2007ish.

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01-25-2011, 04:52 PM
  #64
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Beard life is the only way to live.

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01-25-2011, 05:01 PM
  #65
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Also, Ochocinco is changing his name back to Chad Johnson, and is leaving Cincinnati. What a guy.
To put it mildly.

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Old
01-25-2011, 05:05 PM
  #66
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To put it mildly.
Hm. It looks like I misspelled "miserable self-serving bum" as "guy." Weird.

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01-25-2011, 05:09 PM
  #67
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Hm. It looks like I misspelled "miserable self-serving bum" as "guy." Weird.
Only good thing about Ocho are his tweets, good stuff there.

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Old
01-25-2011, 05:16 PM
  #68
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Beef were you a history major?

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01-25-2011, 05:16 PM
  #69
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Just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciate the history discussion going on here. I don't know if it's just my high school/school district, but we only cover the Civil War in elementary school and middle school, which basically means we don't cover it at all. It's nice reading an in-depth and well-informed discussion instead of a textbook that barely mentions or completely leaves out much of the information that you guys cover.

Until you guys either go backwards to about 1600-1800 European history or forwards to WWII and beyond, I can't really comment too much.


Last edited by Go For It: 01-25-2011 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Edited for grammar
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Old
01-25-2011, 05:22 PM
  #70
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Beef were you a history major?
Yes, yes I was. Mostly Ancient/European though, US isn't my strongest point.

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Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciate the history discussion going on here. I don't know if it's just my high school/school district, but we only cover the Civil War in elementary school and middle school, which basically means we don't cover it at all. It's nice reading an in-depth and well-informed discussion instead of a textbook that barely mentions or completely leaves out much of the information that you guys cover.

Until you guys either go backwards to about 1600-1800 European history or forwards to WWII and beyond, I can't really comment too much.

The 30 Years War was stupid. Discuss.

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01-25-2011, 05:31 PM
  #71
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Yes, yes I was. Mostly Ancient/European though, US isn't my strongest point.
I'm in Western Civ now I. It's kind of interesting. I think the teacher has a lot to do with it. He loves history not to mention, a nice guy who isn't a boring speaker. I am going to take him for West Civ II.

If you don't mind me asking, what are you planning on doing with your degree? I'm a History/secondary ed. guy.

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01-25-2011, 05:35 PM
  #72
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To put it mildly.
Yo Opy! How is everything man?

Glad to see you back, and I see you moved. Livin' the dream.

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01-25-2011, 05:35 PM
  #73
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Yes, yes I was. Mostly Ancient/European though, US isn't my strongest point.




The 30 Years War was stupid. Discuss.
Yes, it was. Although personally, I think any war fought primarily over religion is stupid. Frankly, I don't know enough about the 30 Years War to tell you many of the specifics that made it stupid. Although I must say that Gustavus Adolphus is one of the coolest names I've ever heard of.

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01-25-2011, 05:37 PM
  #74
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Yes, it was. Although personally, I think any war fought primarily over religion is stupid. Frankly, I don't know enough about the 30 Years War to tell you many of the specifics that made it stupid. Although I must say that Gustavus Adolphus is one of the coolest names I've ever heard of.
Sargon is a pretty cool.

Just my .2 cents.

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01-25-2011, 05:38 PM
  #75
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Yes, it was. Although personally, I think any war fought primarily over religion is stupid. Frankly, I don't know enough about the 30 Years War to tell you many of the specifics that made it stupid. Although I must say that Gustavus Adolphus is one of the coolest names I've ever heard of.
It did produce a few great generals with even better names, I'll give it that.

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Sargon is a pretty cool.

Just my .2 cents.
It is. Almost any Roman name is awesome as well.

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