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Old
01-26-2011, 10:42 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
Habs got absolutely killed along the boards and the D once again crumbled on an aggressive forecheck. Size/toughness IS an issue. The team crumbles when games get physical and aggressive. No one hits...no one can even set a tone by delivering a big hit or a fight.

If you're not going to be tough then at least have skill and finish. We have neither.

Look at the PP. Easily neutralized once you cover the points cuz the habs have 0 low post game...and a lot of it has to do with size. No one in front of the net willing to take the punishment besides Patches and Darche to get those garbage goals. Hab players standing with the puck along the boards trying to make cross crease passes that rarely ever work.

Need to get bigger and tougher.
Totally agree, we get owned by PHI defense down low.

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01-26-2011, 01:50 PM
  #152
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I'm also sick of people complaining about our lack of toughness and strength. IMO, we are atleast average on that department. Not at the bottom like many posters here seem to think.

That Gomez check to Carcillo was sweet btw

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01-26-2011, 08:00 PM
  #153
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I'm also sick of people complaining about our lack of toughness and strength. IMO, we are atleast average on that department. Not at the bottom like many posters here seem to think
No, we are at the bottom the stats don't lie. How many other teams can boast about three top 6 forwards 5'7 and under? Gionta, Cammy, Desharnais = Little People Big World, I keep waiting for Matt Rohloff to clean the ice with his tractor.

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01-26-2011, 08:02 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
No, we are at the bottom the stats don't lie. How many other teams can boast about three top 6 forwards 5'7 and under? Gionta, Cammy, Desharnais = Little People Big World, I keep waiting for Matt Rohloff to clean the ice with his tractor.
I wonder who'd get knocked out by the catapult.

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01-26-2011, 08:24 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
No, we are at the bottom the stats don't lie. How many other teams can boast about three top 6 forwards 5'7 and under? Gionta, Cammy, Desharnais = Little People Big World, I keep waiting for Matt Rohloff to clean the ice with his tractor.
Buffalo
Derek Roy 5'9
Tyler Ennis 5'9
Nathan Gerbe 5'6

Carolina
Jeff Skinner 5'9
Sergei Samsonov 5'8
Chad Larose 5'10

Edmonton
Eberle 5'10
Cogliano 5'10
Sam Gagner 5'10

These guys are all not in the teams top 6, but neither is Desharnais in ours...just to give you some perfective. Others teams also have smaller players in their top 6. Anaheim with koivu and Blake both at 5'10. Toronto, Grabovski and Versteeg at 5'10

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01-26-2011, 08:42 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Buffalo
Derek Roy 5'9
Tyler Ennis 5'9
Nathan Gerbe 5'6

Carolina
Jeff Skinner 5'9
Sergei Samsonov 5'8
Chad Larose 5'10

Edmonton
Eberle 5'10
Cogliano 5'10
Sam Gagner 5'10

These guys are all not in the teams top 6, but neither is Desharnais in ours...just to give you some perfective. Others teams also have smaller players in their top 6. Anaheim with koivu and Blake both at 5'10. Toronto, Grabovski and Versteeg at 5'10

Not to pick sides in this, but you just listed a bunch of really bad teams.

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01-26-2011, 08:47 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Not to pick sides in this, but you just listed a bunch of really bad teams.
And besides Gerbe, they're all taller...some 3-4 inches taller.

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01-26-2011, 08:54 PM
  #158
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Not to pick sides in this, but you just listed a bunch of really bad teams.
I didn't say they weren't. He said we must be the only team with players 5'9 and under. We're not. Plus, those teams aren't bad because they have small players. Those teams are bad because they have incompetant GMs and are poorly runned teams. Although Carolina is always one those iffy teams. Anaheim is actually in 5th despite having such a crap start. They have a few smaller players both up front and on the back end (Koivu, Blake, Sexton)

Side note: Besides I don't even have a problem with guys like Cammalleri and Gionta. If guys like Plekanec would compete and play as fearless as Gionta and Cammalleri we'd be a lot harder of a team to beat. Plekanec is 5'11, same height as Richards, they even weigh the same. Yet Richards is much more feisty along the boards and wins many more board battles not because of his, but simply because he's willing to compete in those areas of the ice. I really don't think size is the issue here, we have plenty of size throughout the lineup to compensate for Gionta and Cammalleri. It's just the biggers guy don't play the type of style you guys prefer.

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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Not to pick sides in this, but you just listed a bunch of really bad teams.
Other teams with smaller players in their top 6 include Boston with Marchand at 5'9, Marc Recchi at 5'10 and Savard at 5'10.

It's just all about the right balance in regards to other areas of play that minimize the effect.


Last edited by overlords: 01-26-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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01-26-2011, 09:14 PM
  #159
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So briere and Zherdev threw hits? Weber and Pouliot both nailed Shelley I guess that makes them behemoths. Also Subban flattened Zherdev. Pacioretty rocked Carter behind the net. White took down Meszaros twice on one shift. Eller rocked Hartnell in open ice that made Hartnell go bananas trying to find a target the rest of the game only to settle on our smallest player. Gionta put Leino right into his own bench as well. I guess the habs are just as tough right?

The Flyers are a skilled team. Zherdev, Leino, Briere, Giroux and Carter are all skilled guys. Carter is hardly any tougher than Pouliot.

You scored 3 PP goals, two on the 5 on 3. Up until that point the game was fairly even and pretty exciting. Those goals took all the momentum out of the game. The habs had multiple chances. They hit the post 3 times and couldn't capitalize on anything else.

Laviolette plays an aggressive system. The Flyers look exactly like the Canes did a few years ago when they were among the top teams in the league. He's an excellent coach who keeps breaking Martin's system.

Even against the toughest of toughest teams Montreal doesn't have as much trouble as they do with the Flyers because the Flyers just have that much skill. They already have 4 players with 40 points. They have 7 forwards who can put up 60+ points and two d-men who can put up 50+ points while all playing a very sound two-way game(aside from Briere and Zherdev) and that is why they are among the best teams in the league and that is why they give everyone trouble.

Tonight wasn't even a physical game in the slightest, the habs were far from manhandled and had as many chances to score as the Flyers did. The difference is the Flyers capitalized on all their chances. Also they killed the Canadiens in the neutral zone. Laviolette's set up to stifle speed through the neutral zone is among the best in the league. It kills all transition games.
I agree with most of what you said. What i saw was the habs getting outworked, by a bigger team and the size helps win those puck battles behind the net and on the boards. The habs would benefit from some guys with size and skill. Granted they aren't easy to find, but you gotta draft those guys and or sign them. Once the signed the midget line, most habs fans weren't overly pleased IMO and almost all my friends here obviously are habs fans. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but i respect your opinion.

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01-26-2011, 09:16 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I didn't say they weren't. He said we must be the only team with players 5'9 and under. We're not. Plus, those teams aren't bad because they have small players. Those teams are bad because they have incompetant GMs and are poorly runned teams. Although Carolina is always one those iffy teams. Anaheim is actually in 5th despite having such a crap start. They have a few smaller players both up front and on the back end (Koivu, Blake, Sexton)

Side note: Besides I don't even have a problem with guys like Cammalleri and Gionta. If guys like Plekanec would compete and play as fearless as Gionta and Cammalleri we'd be a lot harder of a team to beat. Plekanec is 5'11, same height as Richards, they even weigh the same. Yet Richards is much more feisty along the boards and wins many more board battles not because of his, but simply because he's willing to compete in those areas of the ice. I really don't think size is the issue here, we have plenty of size throughout the lineup to compensate for Gionta and Cammalleri. It's just the biggers guy don't play the type of style you guys prefer.



Other teams with smaller players in their top 6 include Boston with Marchand at 5'9, Marc Recchi at 5'10 and Savard at 5'10.

It's just all about the right balance in regards to other areas of play that minimize the effect.
Yep. I was with you until you said cammy battles 'fearlessly' though. Gionta sure. Cammy, not so much. But I very much agree that it's about balance. We've got gomez, pleks, cammy, and gionta who are pretty small. We need to surround them with guys who can win board battles and stand up for them in scrums. Patches is doing the former quite well already, and Eller has a lot of promise there as well.

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01-26-2011, 09:19 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Mike2000z28 View Post
I agree with most of what you said. What i saw was the habs getting outworked, by a bigger team and the size helps win those puck battles behind the net and on the boards. The habs would benefit from some guys with size and skill. Granted they aren't easy to find, but you gotta draft those guys and or sign them. Once the signed the midget line, most habs fans weren't overly pleased IMO and almost all my friends here obviously are habs fans. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but i respect your opinion.
Laviolette said after the first that the Flyers were lucky to have out of the first with a 2-0 lead because they were outworked along the boards until the two penalties. I didn't size to be a problem until then. Montreal killed themselves yesterday as opposed to being killed.

And yes, they would benefit with more size, as would any team, but the fact remains: they didn't lose because a lack of size yesterday, they lost because of a lack of discipline and an outcoaching by Laviolette. Not to be mean, but I just don't we lost because the Flyers were bigger. You guys weren't even playing a banging game yesterday, you were passing the puck with incredible accuracy and were having successful after successful rushes. Flyers won with skill yesterday as they do with most teams. Flyers are a skilled team, much more than they are a "tough" one. Like I said, I follow the Flyers pretty religiously, they are my second favorite team and I read the Flyers board quite a lot. The Flyers are good because of skill and great coaching. It's a Laviolette team in every sense of the word. Look at the complete change from the team under Stevens to the one under PL, completely different. The system is employed beautifully. Strong rush attack, strong two-man forecheck and extremley effective neutral zone trapping which prevents counter-attacks, which is essential for speedy teams like the habs.

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01-26-2011, 09:35 PM
  #162
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Yep. I was with you until you said cammy battles 'fearlessly' though. Gionta sure. Cammy, not so much. But I very much agree that it's about balance. We've got gomez, pleks, cammy, and gionta who are pretty small. We need to surround them with guys who can win board battles and stand up for them in scrums. Patches is doing the former quite well already, and Eller has a lot of promise there as well.
(Sorry to repeat this, I rewrote it because my other one was deleted, so I don't know it's returned). Yes of course, but despite not having Markov and Gorges and inspite of having this "horrible size problem", Montreal still remains one of the more competitive teams in the east and they are definitely heading in the right direction.

I still maintain the position that I was advocating during the playoffs. Depth in terms of pure skill wins you hockey games. You can be as tough as you want, if your depth cannot match up with the other team's depth, you are likely not going to win. Flyers have tough players, don't get me wrong, but they don't win because they are tough, they win because they have insane depth. They have a top 9 all of which are capable of scoring 25+ goals and 60+ points. Seven forwards are capable of doing this (JVR, Richards, Carter, Briere, Leino, Zherdev, Giroux, Hartnell) add to that two 50+ point d-men and they aren't many teams who can compete. Out of those skilled guys the only two who intentionally play a tough game are Richards and Hartnell. Carter and JVR aren't any tougher than Pacioretty Pouliot, which is why I keep saying that they win because they are stacked. The same way Carolina was stacked with their insane top 9, Pittsburgh was stacked because of the big three centerman, Detroit was stacked with a crazy top 9 and the Hawks were stacked with a crazy top 9(something the Flyers couldn't match last year because JVR and Giroux weren't as far in their development as they are now).

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01-26-2011, 10:26 PM
  #163
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And besides Gerbe, they're all taller...some 3-4 inches taller.
Doesn't really make a difference. A 5'6'' guy could actually be harder to hit than someone slightly taller, who wouldn't be much stronger physical specimen.

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01-26-2011, 10:35 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
(Sorry to repeat this, I rewrote it because my other one was deleted, so I don't know it's returned). Yes of course, but despite not having Markov and Gorges and inspite of having this "horrible size problem", Montreal still remains one of the more competitive teams in the east and they are definitely heading in the right direction.

I still maintain the position that I was advocating during the playoffs. Depth in terms of pure skill wins you hockey games. You can be as tough as you want, if your depth cannot match up with the other team's depth, you are likely not going to win. Flyers have tough players, don't get me wrong, but they don't win because they are tough, they win because they have insane depth. They have a top 9 all of which are capable of scoring 25+ goals and 60+ points. Seven forwards are capable of doing this (JVR, Richards, Carter, Briere, Leino, Zherdev, Giroux, Hartnell) add to that two 50+ point d-men and they aren't many teams who can compete. Out of those skilled guys the only two who intentionally play a tough game are Richards and Hartnell. Carter and JVR aren't any tougher than Pacioretty Pouliot, which is why I keep saying that they win because they are stacked. The same way Carolina was stacked with their insane top 9, Pittsburgh was stacked because of the big three centerman, Detroit was stacked with a crazy top 9 and the Hawks were stacked with a crazy top 9(something the Flyers couldn't match last year because JVR and Giroux weren't as far in their development as they are now).

agree 100%

you win with depth and you need to have a good mix of young players(low cap hits) who can produce and players with big contract who produce to win a cup

and on top of that when you are the Red Wings you sign you're skills players long term with low cap hit because the players know they are going to win in Detroit.

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01-26-2011, 10:48 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
(Sorry to repeat this, I rewrote it because my other one was deleted, so I don't know it's returned). Yes of course, but despite not having Markov and Gorges and inspite of having this "horrible size problem", Montreal still remains one of the more competitive teams in the east and they are definitely heading in the right direction.

I still maintain the position that I was advocating during the playoffs. Depth in terms of pure skill wins you hockey games. You can be as tough as you want, if your depth cannot match up with the other team's depth, you are likely not going to win. Flyers have tough players, don't get me wrong, but they don't win because they are tough, they win because they have insane depth. They have a top 9 all of which are capable of scoring 25+ goals and 60+ points. Seven forwards are capable of doing this (JVR, Richards, Carter, Briere, Leino, Zherdev, Giroux, Hartnell) add to that two 50+ point d-men and they aren't many teams who can compete. Out of those skilled guys the only two who intentionally play a tough game are Richards and Hartnell. Carter and JVR aren't any tougher than Pacioretty Pouliot, which is why I keep saying that they win because they are stacked. The same way Carolina was stacked with their insane top 9, Pittsburgh was stacked because of the big three centerman, Detroit was stacked with a crazy top 9 and the Hawks were stacked with a crazy top 9(something the Flyers couldn't match last year because JVR and Giroux weren't as far in their development as they are now).
Yep, agree. But i think the problem I might have here is with the word 'toughness'. We should probably define the word before we go any further. The problem with our smaller forwards except maybe Gionta, is that they can't win a board battle to save their lives. I'm not sure if this fits in the 'toughness' category, but for me it's way more important than some guy barreling into a player and making a loud noise. That's definitely not what I want on this team.

But size, even without toughness or 'grit' does help. Carter is a *****cat, but he screened Carey pretty damn well last night. We need some of that too.

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01-27-2011, 12:05 AM
  #166
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I wonder who'd get knocked out by the catapult.
When little Rohloff got wiped out by the catapult I felt really sad. But after I learned he was ok, I laughed for some time. Life is funny like that.

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01-27-2011, 06:05 AM
  #167
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Not to pick sides in this, but you just listed a bunch of really bad teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
And besides Gerbe, they're all taller...some 3-4 inches taller.
Was going to comment the same things.

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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Yep, agree. But i think the problem I might have here is with the word 'toughness'. We should probably define the word before we go any further. The problem with our smaller forwards except maybe Gionta, is that they can't win a board battle to save their lives. I'm not sure if this fits in the 'toughness' category, but for me it's way more important than some guy barreling into a player and making a loud noise. That's definitely not what I want on this team.

But size, even without toughness or 'grit' does help. Carter is a *****cat, but he screened Carey pretty damn well last night. We need some of that too.
Totally agree. Board battles, fighting for 50/50 pucks, and ability to deal with a tenacious hard-hitting forecheck (without getting injured...) tell a lot about strength and "toughness". And those are 3 of the Habs' biggest weaknesses, imo. Those, and the inability to stand their ground when the other team decides it's time they got out of there (wherever 'there' happens to be). Until they get better, they'll have a hard time maintaining pressure on opponents, and relieving pressure from teams with well executed forechecking. Recipe for disaster in playoff hockey unless your goalie plays out of his mind EVERY game for 4 rounds, 'cause it's not exactly all flowing non-stop end-to-end 3-on-2 rushes come spring. Lots of battling inch by inch just to get pucks out of the zone, etc.


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01-27-2011, 12:45 PM
  #168
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Laviolette said after the first that the Flyers were lucky to have out of the first with a 2-0 lead because they were outworked along the boards until the two penalties. I didn't size to be a problem until then. Montreal killed themselves yesterday as opposed to being killed.

And yes, they would benefit with more size, as would any team, but the fact remains: they didn't lose because a lack of size yesterday, they lost because of a lack of discipline and an outcoaching by Laviolette. Not to be mean, but I just don't we lost because the Flyers were bigger. You guys weren't even playing a banging game yesterday, you were passing the puck with incredible accuracy and were having successful after successful rushes. Flyers won with skill yesterday as they do with most teams. Flyers are a skilled team, much more than they are a "tough" one. Like I said, I follow the Flyers pretty religiously, they are my second favorite team and I read the Flyers board quite a lot. The Flyers are good because of skill and great coaching. It's a Laviolette team in every sense of the word. Look at the complete change from the team under Stevens to the one under PL, completely different. The system is employed beautifully. Strong rush attack, strong two-man forecheck and extremley effective neutral zone trapping which prevents counter-attacks, which is essential for speedy teams like the habs.
Oh i know the habs played well, the flyers have a habit of coming out flat in first periods this year. I always tell people you have to bring your A game and play 60 min hockey to win because no team will let you off the hook.

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