HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Amazing Stat (Westgarth)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-27-2011, 01:26 AM
  #1
Herby
Culture Changer
 
Herby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 15,346
vCash: 500
Amazing Stat (Westgarth)

Kings are 16-19-1 with Westgarth in the lineup.

Kings are 11-3-0 when Westgarth is scratched

I may not have played at a high level and I may not know much about bar fighting, but I know this team is much better when this guy is eating popcorn in the pressbox. Tonight is a perfect example, if Westgarth is in there over Poni the Kings lose, no question about it.

Herby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 01:34 AM
  #2
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Don't sell yourself so short Herby.

Horses for corses my friend.

That said, I am not sold at all on Poniboy being a long term answer but when he wants to be a big part of the team/game he can be. If he only wanted to do so more than once in a rare while he would be a really good complimentary player.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 01:42 AM
  #3
Herby
Culture Changer
 
Herby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 15,346
vCash: 500
I think Poni has been a pretty large disappointment this season, but he is atleast capable of being a quality bottom line player, and the guy has had a few nice seasons in his career. Tonight he and the 4th line worked really hard and were rewarded with a goal for their efforts.

When you have Westgarth in there the best you can hope for is he is a non-factor and doesn't turn the puck over or take a dumb penalty.

He really should not see the ice again this season.

Herby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 01:46 AM
  #4
Ollie Weeks
Registered User
 
Ollie Weeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sioux Lookout, NWO
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
I did the math on this after the Boston game too, Herby. Its actually a bit more lopsided than I thought. Its not that I'm interested in the whole team toughness argument (I'm not), I just want the roster that is winning iced consistently. This happens to include no Westgarth. So be it.

Ollie Weeks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 01:51 AM
  #5
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
I agree that Westgarth and Poniboy are two totally different players but then they have two different jobs and one is a rookie while the other is a very seasoned vet. It apples and oranges to me. I will say that Poniboy is more of a regular shift player then Westgarth but it should stay that way if not for the rest of their respective careers at least until one of them gets a full season or two under their belt.

I think that its a shame that Poniboy is so inconsistent because if he could play consistently at the same level he did tonight he would be a really valuable player.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 03:28 AM
  #6
Jetteroheller
Registered User
 
Jetteroheller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 369
vCash: 500
I thought about doing this math the other day, I was pretty sure it was lopsided with Westgarth in the line up. Thanks for showing me that i was correct in my thinking.

Jetteroheller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 03:38 AM
  #7
damacles1156
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,976
vCash: 500
I like Westy's effort, I just don't like his Lack of NHL skill set.

damacles1156 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 01:06 PM
  #8
Wildturkey12
Do It!
 
Wildturkey12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: L.A.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,385
vCash: 500
There is no way the two skids we have had can be blamed on him. I dont remember the first losing streak but I know he played a majority of the second losing streak. I think it was more the fact of him replacing injured players.

I realize his ice time throws off his plus/minus but his -5 is right there with the rest of the 3rd and 4th line.

Wildturkey12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 01:20 PM
  #9
Whiskeypete
Registered User
 
Whiskeypete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: stuck in the middle
Country: United States
Posts: 2,424
vCash: 500
i respect and appreciate what the HW's do for the team, but in today's game there is zero room for them. to much a liability on the ice for the 5-10mins they get per night. ive liked the Clifford/Simmonds 1-2 combo of handling this part of the game and Westie staying in the press box.

Poni has been a disappointment. he looked promising the first part of the season before his first injury. was playing well, was doing well on the PK. since then its a 'who shows tonight' scenario with him.

all of this becomes more complicated when Marco returns. im praying they keep Loki up and getting ice time/experience. the kid and the team needs him to develop at the NHL level, not the AHL. im guessing Murray's doghouse system will return and guys will start being scratched for 'lack of effort'. well how about making EVERYONE accountable for this TMu? im looking at you 11 & 23 after the SJ game

Whiskeypete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 02:17 PM
  #10
ibleedkings
Is this real?
 
ibleedkings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Quartz Hill
Country: United States
Posts: 1,845
vCash: 500
Good find Herb. It's too bad that Terry wouldn't care if you gave him that stat though.

ibleedkings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 02:23 PM
  #11
Flour Child
Unleavened User
 
Flour Child's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Drury Lane
Posts: 21,822
vCash: 460
Westgarth is the succubus

Flour Child is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 02:33 PM
  #12
scramble91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Westgarth is the succubus
he is a feline demon that torments mens souls?

scramble91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 04:04 PM
  #13
Defgarden
Registered User
 
Defgarden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Loma Linda, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,827
vCash: 500
You know, it's an interesting stat, but I find it to be pure coincidence. He's a -5, which certainly isn't good, but he averages less than 6 minutes a game. He's arguably better, or at least as good as Raitis Ivanans (debatable I guess).

What was the Kings record with and without Ivanans last season?

That said, it's not like I think he needs to be on the ice. I also don't play hockey at a high level (or much at all), but I don't really see the need for a pure enforcer type.

Defgarden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 04:06 PM
  #14
Flour Child
Unleavened User
 
Flour Child's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Drury Lane
Posts: 21,822
vCash: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defgarden View Post

That said, it's not like I think he needs to be on the ice. I also don't play hockey at a high level (or much at all), but I don't really see the need for a pure enforcer type.
I think Clifford does Westgarth's job better than Westgarth does

Flour Child is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 04:12 PM
  #15
ShowtimeDynasty
LAK
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Diego
Country: United States
Posts: 72
vCash: 500
Westgarth isn't even able to find a fight most games.

ShowtimeDynasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 04:21 PM
  #16
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
No doubt that Westgarth hasn't played up to his ability or even really found many fitting dancing partners but he is only playing 5mins a game on average so if he is the reason that we are losing games it doesn't speak much for our entire team and coaching staff either.

I guess I would say that I was the punching bag on each of my teams until I learned how to play my position better so all I can say about Westgarth's role is what used to be said to me.
I was always told by team mates that knowing that there was someone on the team who would step in front of anyone to keep things in control so they wouldn't have to was hugely important.

I can't say how effective a fighter I was or not but I can say that I always felt appreciated and that during my punching bag time I was happy to watch how much harder my team mates played after a good pummeling.

Maybe I judge Westgarth too easily due to some childhood bias or maybe I am encouraged by watching how much his team mates cheer for him, I don't know. I know that Westgarth has better skills than he has shown us so I hope that as time goes on that he will begin to show them more effectively.

If not I will still be stuck with appreciating how difficult his job is and wondering how important it is to our team when we have a couple of exceptional middle weights.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:17 PM
  #17
Andrew Knoll
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Andrew Knoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 2,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowtimeDynasty View Post
Westgarth isn't even able to find a fight most games.
That's not a bad thing. The best compliment that can be paid to an enforcer is that a cutout of him could be used as a scarecrow at the end of the bench. If guys don't want to scrap with you, they and their teammates are not going to be out there taking liberties with your guys.

I don't know that Westgarth has reached that level of fearsomeness, but he's a big guy with heavy hands. There are not a lot of matchups for him out there and he's only really got handled once, that was by Chicago's John Scott.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
No doubt that Westgarth hasn't played up to his ability or even really found many fitting dancing partners but he is only playing 5mins a game on average so if he is the reason that we are losing games it doesn't speak much for our entire team and coaching staff either.

I guess I would say that I was the punching bag on each of my teams until I learned how to play my position better so all I can say about Westgarth's role is what used to be said to me.
I was always told by team mates that knowing that there was someone on the team who would step in front of anyone to keep things in control so they wouldn't have to was hugely important.

I can't say how effective a fighter I was or not but I can say that I always felt appreciated and that during my punching bag time I was happy to watch how much harder my team mates played after a good pummeling.

Maybe I judge Westgarth too easily due to some childhood bias or maybe I am encouraged by watching how much his team mates cheer for him, I don't know. I know that Westgarth has better skills than he has shown us so I hope that as time goes on that he will begin to show them more effectively.

If not I will still be stuck with appreciating how difficult his job is and wondering how important it is to our team when we have a couple of exceptional middle weights.
Right, in five minutes of ice time I don't see him swinging the game. Maybe a bad giveaway here or there cost the Kings but to frame it the way the original poster did is spurious. No fourth-liner makes that big of a difference. It's also convenient that Ponikarovsky has his first decent game in a long time. The fourth line never produces much and the energy of some grinding shifts may not always compare to the threat of a heavyweight on the bench.

It's getting tougher and tougher to make a living as a fighter but the role is not obsolete.

__________________
Danny Duberstein is good at two things ...
Andrew Knoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:18 PM
  #18
Cutty Sarkn3ss*
I bet u trade me
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Granada Hills, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,983
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Cutty Sarkn3ss*
In before Johnny Utah

Cutty Sarkn3ss* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:18 PM
  #19
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
No doubt that Westgarth hasn't played up to his ability or even really found many fitting dancing partners but he is only playing 5mins a game on average so if he is the reason that we are losing games it doesn't speak much for our entire team and coaching staff either.
I don't think people are or should be directly blaming Westgarth for his play, or mistakes, leading to us losing when he plays. It's more his inability to play that essentially leads any shift where he's out there basically becoming a throwaway opportunity. It's amazing how much more balance we show when he's not dressed and we can roll 4 lines that can be effective in one manner or another. When a guy like Westgarth is out there it's almost as if that line is playing down a man when he can't make a pass, skate with the puck, etc. With that, there's rarely any offensive zone time, cycle, pressure, physical play or just general wearing on the opposition. Instead, we're just hoping we don't get scored on as we spend the majority of the shift in our own zone. However, take out a guy like Westgarth and put in Poni/Clifford/etc. in that spot and you see the immediate difference. While we'd still prefer more offense out of our 4th line, they can actually play in the offensive zone and at least threaten the opposition. Over the course of the game that adds up and has a positive effect.

I appreciate Westgarth and he's better than Ivanans but even then he doesn't fight all that often because it's not easy to get people to engage you in a fight unless it's scripted when you're not in the play. Much like Ivanans, Westgarth is the guy coming in late to a scrum trying to rile people up to go with him after the fact. I don't mind him being on the team as an insurance policy dressing for the obvious games and my issues aren't with him as much as they are with Murray for playing him so often.

__________________
"I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough." - Mark Twain.
William H Bonney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:23 PM
  #20
Andrew Knoll
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Andrew Knoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 2,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I don't think people are or should be directly blaming Westgarth for his play, or mistakes, leading to us losing when he plays. It's more his inability to play that essentially leads any shift where he's out there basically becoming a throwaway opportunity. It's amazing how much more balance we show when he's not dressed and we can roll 4 lines that can be effective in one manner or another. When a guy like Westgarth is out there it's almost as if that line is playing down a man when he can't make a pass, skate with the puck, etc. With that, there's rarely any offensive zone time, cycle, pressure, physical play or just general wearing on the opposition. Instead, we're just hoping we don't get scored on as we spend the majority of the shift in our own zone. However, take out a guy like Westgarth and put in Poni/Clifford/etc. in that spot and you see the immediate difference. While we'd still prefer more offense out of our 4th line, they can actually play in the offensive zone and at least threaten the opposition. Over the course of the game that adds up and has a positive effect.

I appreciate Westgarth and he's better than Ivanans but even then he doesn't fight all that often because it's not easy to get people to engage you in a fight unless it's scripted when you're not in the play. Much like Ivanans, Westgarth is the guy coming in late to a scrum trying to rile people up to go with him after the fact. I don't mind him being on the team as an insurance policy dressing for the obvious games and my issues aren't with him as much as they are with Murray for playing him so often.
That's fair, particularly with the emergence of Clifford as a guy who can really scrap and do it as a middleweight. That said, I still think you can roll four lines with Westgarth dressed. If you need him to challenge someone, send him in, if not treat it like a situation where you've got 7 D dressed take that opportunity to mix and match a little. Murray's got some line combos in mind that he has seldom utilized, this would give him a chance to give them a look.

Andrew Knoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:40 PM
  #21
DIEHARD the King fan
Registered User
 
DIEHARD the King fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: blueline to slot
Country: United States
Posts: 6,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Knoll View Post
That's fair, particularly with the emergence of Clifford as a guy who can really scrap and do it as a middleweight. That said, I still think you can roll four lines with Westgarth dressed. If you need him to challenge someone, send him in, if not treat it like a situation where you've got 7 D dressed take that opportunity to mix and match a little. Murray's got some line combos in mind that he has seldom utilized, this would give him a chance to give them a look.
Politely, I disagree. Sure you can roll four lines, but only three will be effective.

AS for MORE LINE COMBO's, havent we seen enough of that stuff already.

DIEHARD the King fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:49 PM
  #22
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Knoll View Post
That's fair, particularly with the emergence of Clifford as a guy who can really scrap and do it as a middleweight. That said, I still think you can roll four lines with Westgarth dressed. If you need him to challenge someone, send him in, if not treat it like a situation where you've got 7 D dressed take that opportunity to mix and match a little. Murray's got some line combos in mind that he has seldom utilized, this would give him a chance to give them a look.
I just don't think we have enough offensive talent to sacrifice someone for the sake of Westgarth sitting at the end of the bench to potentially challenge someone to most likely a staged fight for a couple reasons. First, how many "heat of the play" fights has Westgarth been in? Of his 7 fights this year, 4 were staged off of the face-off, 2 were in scrums after the play, and 1 was a heat of the moment fight against Scott where Westgarth got destroyed. It'd be one thing if Westy was getting into fights because he was involved in the play, throwing his weight around, irritating our opponents, etc. It's different, at least to me, when it's just a staged square off involving a guy on his 4th shift of the entire game. It'd be different if we were dressing a fighter that contributed something offensively but Westy right now isn't that guy. Second, I don't think we have a forward outside of Kopitar that's shown they even deserve a double shift and I don't think Kopi has shown he has the necessary endurance and tenacity for that opportunity at this time. Again, I feel we're better off rolling a fourth line with 3 capable players intended to put pressure on the opposition, which adds up over time so a Kopitar, Brown, Williams, Stoll, etc. can take advantage when it matters.

I get, in certain games, having Westy dressed for that potential but the 36 games he's dressed so far don't qualify for all of those.


Last edited by William H Bonney: 01-27-2011 at 06:20 PM.
William H Bonney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:56 PM
  #23
Kurrilino
Go Stoll Go
 
Kurrilino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,533
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Kurrilino
You guys start to see what i see.

If i want a player removed from the roster i have reasons for that.

In Westgarth case it's that he makes a complete line useless because Murray limits
it to 3 minutes ice time.
Usualle this line includes player like Richardson and Pony or Clifford.
You can call it a lucky shot, but these were the guys who scored last night.

Why Murray is still dressing up guys like Westgarth is way beyond me. Same with Stoll on the PP.
It just makes no sense.

To change our game to be more flashy and agressive we have to dress 4 mobile lines.
That would give us many options to score.
We have the guys for that, we have the talent and we have the speed.


this is one of the major reason why i want this coaching staff gone.
Our present system leads to nowhere because it was played in the 70's and the opponents just need mediocre players to take us out of the game.

Kurrilino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 05:57 PM
  #24
Flour Child
Unleavened User
 
Flour Child's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Drury Lane
Posts: 21,822
vCash: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I just don't think we have enough offensive talent to sacrifice someone for the sake of Westgarth sitting at the end of the bench to potentially challenge someone to most likely a staged fight
[/thread]

Flour Child is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2011, 06:06 PM
  #25
Kurrilino
Go Stoll Go
 
Kurrilino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,533
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Kurrilino
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Knoll View Post
That's not a bad thing. The best compliment that can be paid to an enforcer is that a cutout of him could be used as a scarecrow at the end of the bench. If guys don't want to scrap with you, they and their teammates are not going to be out there taking liberties with your guys.

I don't know that Westgarth has reached that level of fearsomeness, but he's a big guy with heavy hands. There are not a lot of matchups for him out there and he's only really got handled once, that was by Chicago's John Scott.



Right, in five minutes of ice time I don't see him swinging the game. Maybe a bad giveaway here or there cost the Kings but to frame it the way the original poster did is spurious. No fourth-liner makes that big of a difference. It's also convenient that Ponikarovsky has his first decent game in a long time. The fourth line never produces much and the energy of some grinding shifts may not always compare to the threat of a heavyweight on the bench.

It's getting tougher and tougher to make a living as a fighter but the role is not obsolete.
I just want to remind you of Detroits 4th line with Draper.
These guys were always on the ice with the opponents top line, complete shut 'em down and Draper scored 30 goals.
This is what a 4th line should look like. A powerfull tool to take the opponent top line out of the game.
Now i think about Westgarth and how he fits in that picture......


If anyone asks me i want a Clifford - Lewis - Simmonds 4th line.

Kurrilino is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.