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Francois Beauchemin to Vancouver

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Old
01-27-2011, 05:12 PM
  #76
Zrinski
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I don't know why there's so much arguing going on in this thread. To be clear:

Beauchemins trade value < Beauchemin's value to the Toronto Maple Leafs.

No one here is saying Beauchemin is worth Raymond or Kesler, not even jfried. What he's saying is if the Leafs aren't getting a player like that, then we won't move Beauchemin. We aren't asking for those kinds of players for him, just telling you that this team can't afford to move him without significant upgrades to our forward roster. He plays an important role on the team, and we cannot easily replace him.

Realistically, there is absolutely no trade to be made between these two teams that involves Beauchemin. If you want to speculate on Beachemin's market value and what the Canucks can offer in that way, then knock yourselves out.

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01-27-2011, 05:15 PM
  #77
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Toronto's collection of blueliners is every bit as good as Vancouver's minus Salo (who's yet to play a game anyways and puts Vancouver over the cap). The difference between the two teams -- forwards, goaltedning, and coaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Then allow me to put it another way, how are the coaching staff and management not held accountable? If it's a team philosophy or coaching decisions, how are Burke/Nonis/Wilson still employed? The line between it being the fault of a player, the fault of all players, and the fault of management and coaching staff seems to get blurred a little, and if I were a Leafs fan I'd be pissed with the teams recent history.

Beauch has at least some talent, but claiming it's all the team that Beauchemin isn't preforming well doesn't fly.
Because they are rebuilding. Any team that tries to change over almost all 20 players will struggle, especially when they are one of the youngest in the league. You don't fire a GM 2 years in when he came here to rebuild a team and isn't done yet. Any Leaf fan should be pissed at the recent on-ice results, but any leaf fan on these boards has to objectively ask themsevles when talking about trades, does this make our team better?


Last edited by Modo: 01-27-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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01-27-2011, 05:19 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Fixed.

Toronto's collection of blueliners is every bit as good as Vancouver's minus Salo (who's yet to play a game anyways and puts Vancouver over the cap). The difference between the two teams -- forwards, goaltedning, and coaching.


Yes, Yes.

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01-27-2011, 05:22 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Fixed.

Toronto's collection of blueliners is every bit as good as Vancouver's minus Salo (who's yet to play a game anyways and puts Vancouver over the cap). The difference between the two teams -- forwards, goaltedning, and coaching.
Completely disagree. You're basis is on each defenseman on Toronto in the past and not recently.

Dion "run-around Sue" Phaneuf couldn't play defense to save his life. Always out of position and only looking for the big hit.

Komisarek has been brutal.

Kaberle's stock has fallen. Plays ok in his own end.

Schenn is a beast. Best d-man by far.

Beauchemin has seen his best days in Anaheim where funny enough, played with a couple guys named Pronger and Neidermeyer.

Canucks D > To's D.

Also, have you seen AV coach? Canucks fans have forums on the guy to get fired and they are first in the West.

Just saying.

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01-27-2011, 05:27 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Reds81 View Post
Completely disagree. You're basis is on each defenseman on Toronto in the past and not recently.

Dion "run-around Sue" Phaneuf couldn't play defense to save his life. Always out of position and only looking for the big hit.

Komisarek has been brutal.

Kaberle's stock has fallen. Plays ok in his own end.

Schenn is a beast. Best d-man by far.

Beauchemin has seen his best days in Anaheim where funny enough, played with a couple guys named Pronger and Neidermeyer.

Canucks D > To's D.

Also, have you seen AV coach? Canucks fans have forums on the guy to get fired and they are first in the West.

Just saying.
Now try and factor out Toronto having a crappy group of undersized forwards and awful goaltending for most of the year. The big knock on Toronto's D is obviously giveaways, but people need to realize that these giveaways occur becuase our D is always making stretch passes. When you've got Sedin-Kesler-Malhotra up the middle (and a very good set of wingers), you don't need to be making stretch passes to generate offence. When you've got Bozak-Grabovski-Boyce up the middle, you need to be making stretch passes.

Phaneuf > Bieksa
Kaberle > Ehrhoff
Schenn = Edler
Beauchemin = Hamhuis
Komisarek = Ballard
Gunnarsson = Alberts

Substantial difference between the two groups are that Vancouver has better puckmovers (Edler, Ballard), Toronto has better stay-at-home / physical guys (Schenn, Komisarek).

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01-27-2011, 05:33 PM
  #81
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Edit not worth it.... But brutal just brutal. Terrible comparisons

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01-27-2011, 05:33 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Now try and factor out Toronto having a crappy group of undersized forwards and awful goaltending for most of the year. The big knock on Toronto's D is obviously giveaways, but people need to realize that these giveaways occur becuase our D is always making stretch passes. When you've got Sedin-Kesler-Malhotra up the middle (and a very good set of wingers), you don't need to be making stretch passes to generate offence. When you've got Bozak-Grabovski-Boyce up the middle, you need to be making stretch passes.

Phaneuf > Bieksa
Kaberle > Ehrhoff
Schenn = Edler
Beauchemin = Hamhuis
Komisarek = Ballard
Gunnarsson = Alberts

Substantial difference between the two groups are that Vancouver has better puckmovers (Edler, Ballard), Toronto has better stay-at-home / physical guys (Schenn, Komisarek).
Bieksa is atleast equal to Phaneuf this year, possibly better.

It'd say Kaberle and Ehrhoff are on equal footing at the moment.

It'd take Ballard over Komisarek. Ballard has had a rough go just because of the numbers game. However he has played much better lately and had the most minutes of any Canuck last night.

I'd take Hamhuis over Beauchemin right now. Hamhuis has progressively gotten back to the way he started the year after his injury.

Hamhuis and Bieksa have arguably been Vancouver's top line this year.


Last edited by Just A Bit Outside: 01-27-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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01-27-2011, 05:34 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Now try and factor out Toronto having a crappy group of undersized forwards and awful goaltending for most of the year. The big knock on Toronto's D is obviously giveaways, but people need to realize that these giveaways occur becuase our D is always making stretch passes. When you've got Sedin-Kesler-Malhotra up the middle, you don't need to be making stretch passes to generate offence.

Phaneuf > Bieksa
Kaberle > Ehrhoff
Schenn = Edler
Beauchemin = Hamhuis
Komisarek = Ballard
Gunnarsson = Alberts

Substantial difference between the two groups are that Vancouver has better puckmovers (Edler, Ballard), Toronto has better stay-at-home / physical guys (Schenn, Komisarek).
Wait did you just say Schenn was just as good as Edler? Oh my god, open up your eyes and start watching other teams play. Also saying Hamhuis and Ballard are equal to Komisarek and Beacuchimen is just as ludicrous.

If the Leafs blue-line was just as good as the best team in the league blue line I assure you they would be higher than 26 th in the league.

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01-27-2011, 05:40 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Fixed.

Toronto's collection of blueliners is every bit as good as Vancouver's minus Salo (who's yet to play a game anyways and puts Vancouver over the cap). The difference between the two teams -- forwards, goaltedning, and coaching.
#1: Phaneuf < Edler (11 points, -8 and 87 hits (hurt, I know) vs. 32 points, +10 and 78 hits)
Top Offensive: Kaberle =/< Ehrhoff (30 points, -6 and 24 hits vs. 28 points, +9, 33 hits)
Top Shutdown: Beauchemin < Hamhuis (11 points, -6 and 77 hits vs. 16 points, +17 and 58 hits)
Other (Tough guy?):Komisarek < Bieksa (9 points, -6 and 91 hits vs. 17 points, +21 and 80 hits)
Other:Schenn > Ballard (10 points, -2, 145 hits vs. 5 points, +5 67 hits)
Gunnarsson/Lebda =/< Rome/Alberts (as Lebda < Alberts/Rome)

Where do the Leafs equal up to the Canucks? The only area they seem to consistently beat Canucks is in hits according to TSN. I didn't look up blocked shots, which TSN doesn't keep track of, which could sway things a little more evenly, but blocking shots is done to avoid the goalie being beaten (in net Leafs fans openly admit the Canucks are stronger and needn't worry about as much).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Now try and factor out Toronto having a crappy group of undersized forwards and awful goaltending for most of the year. The big knock on Toronto's D is obviously giveaways, but people need to realize that these giveaways occur becuase our D is always making stretch passes. When you've got Sedin-Kesler-Malhotra up the middle (and a very good set of wingers), you don't need to be making stretch passes to generate offence. When you've got Bozak-Grabovski-Boyce up the middle, you need to be making stretch passes.

Phaneuf > Bieksa
Kaberle > Ehrhoff
Schenn = Edler
Beauchemin = Hamhuis
Komisarek = Ballard
Gunnarsson = Alberts

Substantial difference between the two groups are that Vancouver has better puckmovers (Edler, Ballard), Toronto has better stay-at-home / physical guys (Schenn, Komisarek).
I'm sure I'll get criticized, but you just throw name combos together. Other then the Kaberle/Ehrhoff and Beauch/Hamhuis comparisons, the comparisons aren't valid...Bieksa doesn't have Phaneufs ice time or role, and even Kabs/Ehrhoff, two points off but with Ehrhoff beating Kabs in hits and plus/minus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Because they are rebuilding. Any team that tries to change over almost all 20 players will struggle, especially when they are one of the youngest in the league. You don't fire a GM 2 years in when he came here to rebuild a team and isn't done yet. Any Leaf fan should be pissed at the recent on-ice results, but any leaf fan on these boards has to objectively ask themsevles when talking about trades, does this make our team better?
So giving away two lottery picks is rebuilding? Kessel is great and all...but if you know it's such a struggle, why didn't Burke?


Last edited by Cogburn: 01-27-2011 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Phaneuf had a smiley, added further quotes
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Old
01-27-2011, 05:42 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Reds81 View Post
Bieksa is atleast equal to Phaneuf this year, possibly better.

It'd say Kaberle and Ehrhoff are on equal footing at the moment.

It'd take Ballard over Komisarek. Ballard has had a rough go just because of the numbers game. However he has played much better lately and had the most minutes of any Canuck last night.

I'd take Hamhuis over Beauchemin right now. Hanhuis has progressively gotten back to the way he started the year after his injury.

Hamhuis and Bieksa have arguably been Vancouver's top line this year.
The only thing Bieksa has on Phaneuf is his contract. Dion hasn't played up to his, but he's still marginally better than Bieksa.

Kaberle still has an edge on Ehrhoff, the guy has 30 points on a team systemically not set up to get points from the D, and has been solid defensively.

Ballard & Komisarek are basically the same calibre of defenceman. Both are having a rough go and fell victim to the numbers game.

Hamhuis & Beauchemin are basically the same defenceman, only difference is age / contract which isn't relevant to play on the ice.

Beauchemin & Phaneuf have been Toronto's top pair this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Mars View Post
Wait did you just say Schenn was just as good as Edler? Oh my god, open up your eyes and start watching other teams play. Also saying Hamhuis and Ballard are equal to Komisarek and Beacuchimen is just as ludicrous.

If the Leafs blue-line was just as good as the best team in the league blue line I assure you they would be higher than 26 th in the league.
Wait did you just say Schenn wasn't as good as Edler? Oh my god, open up your eyes and start watching other teams play. Also, saying Hamhuis and Ballard are equal to Komisarek and Beauchemin is perfectly accurate.

The Leafs blueline is just as good as the best team's in the league. They just don't have the high quality forwards / goaltending (infact, they have amongst the worst in the league in both those areas) and their rugged stay-at-home style is not remotely suited to their uptempo forwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
#1: Phaneuf = Edler (Phaneuf has been playing the shutdown role)
Top Offensive: Kaberle > Ehrhoff (Toronto isn't built to get points from the D)
Top Shutdown: Beauchemin = Hamhuis (basically the same defneceman, Beauchemin is top 5 in blocked shots aswell))
OtherKomisarek < Bieksa (sure)
Other:Schenn > Ballard (yup)
Gunnarsson/Lebda = Rome/Alberts (insignificant)
Fixed.

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01-27-2011, 05:43 PM
  #86
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Wait did you just say Schenn was just as good as Edler? Oh my god, open up your eyes and start watching other teams play. Also saying Hamhuis and Ballard are equal to Komisarek and Beacuchimen is just as ludicrous.

If the Leafs blue-line was just as good as the best team in the league blue line I assure you they would be higher than 26 th in the league.
Actually, he said that the Leafs D is better than the Canucks D through the use of cutting edge arrow technology.

EDIT: Don't worry. Canucks fans get to see the Leafs more than we could possibly wish for.

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01-27-2011, 05:46 PM
  #87
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01-27-2011, 05:47 PM
  #88
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Jfried
Bgav

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01-27-2011, 05:50 PM
  #89
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I can go all day...


Schenn is the bestest player everrr

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01-27-2011, 05:50 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Hugh Whitbread View Post
So who isn't a fine top 4 d-man on the Leafs? Kaberle? Phaneuf? Schenn? Komisarek?

It's really remarkable how Toronto's extended collection of fine top-4 d-men combine to form one of the worst defences in the league.
by your logic, NJ had the best defense corps in the league last year.

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01-27-2011, 05:56 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
The only thing Bieksa has on Phaneuf is his contract. Dion hasn't played up to his, but he's still marginally better than Bieksa.

Kaberle still has an edge on Ehrhoff, the guy has 30 points on a team systemically not set up to get points from the D, and has been solid defensively.

Ballard & Komisarek are basically the same calibre of defenceman. Both are having a rough go and fell victim to the numbers game.

Hamhuis & Beauchemin are basically the same defenceman, only difference is age / contract which isn't relevant to play on the ice.

Beauchemin & Phaneuf have been Toronto's top pair this year.



Wait did you just say Schenn wasn't as good as Edler? Oh my god, open up your eyes and start watching other teams play. Also, saying Hamhuis and Ballard are equal to Komisarek and Beauchemin is perfectly accurate.

The Leafs blueline is just as good as the best team's in the league. They just don't have the high quality forwards / goaltending (infact, they have amongst the worst in the league in both those areas) and their rugged stay-at-home style is not remotely suited to their uptempo forwards.

My point of you not watching hockey still stands, Bieksa has been miles better defensively than Phaneuf, but since your just a stat reader, you wouldn't know that. Kaberle is known for being a good offensive defenceman, him and Ehrhoff have been even in that department the last couple of seasons, but as we all know Ehrhoff is a lot better defensively.

Again your just going by the stats, if you actually watched the games you would know Ballard has been solid in the role he's been given, but that role isn't big enough for a defenceman of his caliber. Komisarek on the other hand, has been giving the minutes he needs to be successful but his play hasn't.

Hamhuis has been arguably the Canucks 2 nd best defenceman this year behind Edler, Beauchemin has been a major skapegoat on the Leafs this year and has been shopped around all year, there's not a chance in hell he's better than Dan Hamhuis.

I actually do watch other teams play, and from that I have witnessed Edler is a lot better than Schenn, nothing against Schenn, he's a fantastic defenceman, Edler has taken his game to another level this year, and IMO if it weren't for his back injury come June he would be in contention for the Norris Trophy. Also Hamhuis and Ballard are better than Komisarek and Beauchemin for the reasons stated above.

Lastly no the Leafs Blue-line isn't as good as the Canucks blue-line maybe on paper they look similar to you, but on the ice Canucks D>>Leafs D.

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01-27-2011, 05:57 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Fixed.
Sorry, I at least tried to be objective, had stats and what not. Where was your evidence?

I could have taken a very low road and started the contrast with Komisarek and Alberts like the media is bud.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=351334

Your teams big rebuild has failed utterly according to a year to year comparison, you've lost out on Seguin and probably someone like Couturier for Kessel, and haven't moved up in the standings, and yet you're simply stating Toronto's D is better then Vancouver's D with nothing to back it up, comparing our whipping boy to your captain.

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01-27-2011, 06:05 PM
  #93
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My point of you not watching hockey still stands, Bieksa has been miles better defensively than Phaneuf, but since your just a stat reader, you wouldn't know that. Kaberle is known for being a good offensive defenceman, him and Ehrhoff have been even in that department the last couple of seasons, but as we all know Ehrhoff is a lot better defensively.

Again your just going by the stats, if you actually watched the games you would know Ballard has been solid in the role he's been given, but that role isn't big enough for a defenceman of his caliber. Komisarek on the other hand, has been giving the minutes he needs to be successful but his play hasn't.

Hamhuis has been arguably the Canucks 2 nd best defenceman this year behind Edler, Beauchemin has been a major skapegoat on the Leafs this year and has been shopped around all year, there's not a chance in hell he's better than Dan Hamhuis.

I actually do watch other teams play, and from that I have witnessed Edler is a lot better than Schenn, nothing against Schenn, he's a fantastic defenceman, Edler has taken his game to another level this year, and IMO if it weren't for his back injury come June he would be in contention for the Norris Trophy. Also Hamhuis and Ballard are better than Komisarek and Beauchemin for the reasons stated above.

Lastly no the Leafs Blue-line isn't as good as the Canucks blue-line maybe on paper they look similar to you, but on the ice Canucks D>>Leafs D.
Again, no he really hasn't. He's looked better because Vancouver has had a much better supporting cast around him.

Ehrhoff has never been as good as Kaberle.

I'm not just going by stats, I'm going by watching these guys play. If you watched Toronto, you'd know that Komisarek has been solid in the role he's played considering all the factors working against him, and that role isn't big enough for a defenceman of his calibre.

Beauchemin has been the Leafs best defenceman this year. Beauchemin is a scapegoat amonst Leafs fans for his giveaways despite the fact that Kaberle/Schenn have almost as many, and neither of them go against other teams top units while playing alongside a non-puckmover like Phaneuf.

Schenn has taken his game to another level this year too. There have been issues (like the giveaways), but that's as a result of horrible puck support. If Schenn had a ton and nobody else did, then you might have an arguement, but Toronto's giveaways are systemic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Sorry, I at least tried to be objective, had stats and what not. Where was your evidence?

I could have taken a very low road and started the contrast with Komisarek and Alberts like the media is bud.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=351334

Your teams big rebuild has failed utterly according to a year to year comparison, you've lost out on Seguin and probably someone like Couturier for Kessel, and haven't moved up in the standings, and yet you're simply stating Toronto's D is better then Vancouver's D with nothing to back it up, comparing our whipping boy to your captain.
Our team's big rebuild isn't done. You're simply stating that Vancouver's D is better than Toronto's with absolutely nothing to back it up other than factors that are attributable to other parts of the team.

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01-27-2011, 06:05 PM
  #94
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Trading for someone like Beauchemin pretty much kills any chance of us resigning Erhoff wouldn't it? I'd rather go for a UFA like Chris Phillips.

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01-27-2011, 06:09 PM
  #95
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]Our team's big rebuild isn't done. You're simply stating that Vancouver's D is better than Toronto's with absolutely nothing to back it up other than factors that are attributable to other parts of the team.
Nor will it with Burke with any say in the matter.

That aside, there is no such thing as a player playing in a vacuum. Every stat is directly attributable to the rest of the teams play. Just as every stat can affect the teams over all play. Simply throwing arrows is as asinine the OPs proposal.

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01-27-2011, 06:11 PM
  #96
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Nor will it with Burke with any say in the matter.

That aside, there is no such thing as a player playing in a vacuum. Every stat is directly attributable to the rest of the teams play. Just as every stat can affect the teams over all play. Simply throwing arrows is as asinine the OPs proposal.
Can you tell me next week's lottery numbers too? Last I checked, the guy has a Stanley Cup ring and laid the foundation for a big chunk of Vancouver's team this year (notably the Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa) while his partner in crime brought in Edler, Luongo, Raymond, Burrows etc.

For someone who understands that every stat has to do with the rest of the team's play, you should understand why Toronto's D hasn't looked very good this year, especially on the stat sheet.

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01-27-2011, 06:22 PM
  #97
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Again, no he really hasn't. He's looked better because Vancouver has had a much better supporting cast around him.

Ehrhoff has never been as good as Kaberle.

I'm not just going by stats, I'm going by watching these guys play. If you watched Toronto, you'd know that Komisarek has been solid in the role he's played considering all the factors working against him, and that role isn't big enough for a defenceman of his calibre.

Beauchemin has been the Leafs best defenceman this year. Beauchemin is a scapegoat amonst Leafs fans for his giveaways despite the fact that Kaberle/Schenn have almost as many, and neither of them go against other teams top units while playing alongside a non-puckmover like Phaneuf.

Schenn has taken his game to another level this year too. There have been issues (like the giveaways), but that's as a result of horrible puck support. If Schenn had a ton and nobody else did, then you might have an arguement, but Toronto's giveaways are systemic.



Our team's big rebuild isn't done. You're simply stating that Vancouver's D is better than Toronto's with absolutely nothing to back it up other than factors that are attributable to other parts of the team.
I can't remember - was it you who had a 5 page discussion with people about 10 games into the season about Toronto being better than Vancouver because they had a better start to the season and end to last season?

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01-27-2011, 06:23 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Fixed.

Toronto's collection of blueliners is every bit as good as Vancouver's minus Salo (who's yet to play a game anyways and puts Vancouver over the cap). The difference between the two teams -- forwards, goaltedning, and coaching.



Because they are rebuilding. Any team that tries to change over almost all 20 players will struggle, especially when they are one of the youngest in the league. You don't fire a GM 2 years in when he came here to rebuild a team and isn't done yet. Any Leaf fan should be pissed at the recent on-ice results, but any leaf fan on these boards has to objectively ask themsevles when talking about trades, does this make our team better?
Yes we get to see Toronto's superior defense quite a bit.

I'll tell you what, pal, we'll send you the center of a donut for Beauch. It's win-win. We get one of your Hall of Fame defensemen...and you guys get a center to play with Kessel. I know it's only a Timbit...but still, better than Bozak.

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01-27-2011, 06:25 PM
  #99
Cogburn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Can you tell me next week's lottery numbers too? Last I checked, the guy has a Stanley Cup ring and laid the foundation for a big chunk of Vancouver's team this year (notably the Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa) while his partner in crime brought in Edler, Luongo, Raymond, Burrows etc.

For someone who understands that every stat has to do with the rest of the team's play, you should understand why Toronto's D hasn't looked very good this year, especially on the stat sheet.
And yet when given utter control of a franchise, he failed to do anything with it. We also had Naslund, Bertuzzi, Jovo, Ohlund....and no cups, finals, no nothing. And just so you're aware, his drafting record was terrible, and nearly all Canuck fans consider the Sedins the biggest and best thing he did on the positive for the franchise, but he also cost us a great number of players and talent. Also, Lu was Nonis, and Florida gifted him to us with that trade offer.

Anaheim had all the pieces there; Getzlaf; Perry; Niedermayer signed there to play with his brother; Pronger wasn't a gimmie, but that would be his contribution to the team. Look at them now though, great team building. Even your beloved Beauch was the return for Fedorov.

And yes, but you can't keep saying Vancouver numbers are better just because of a better supporting cast then. You can't on one hand say absolutely Toronto's D is better, but has worse stats in alot of key categories just because of the team, and then say that all of Vancouver's D is worse, but looks better because the team is better. Both play into each other.

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Old
01-27-2011, 06:27 PM
  #100
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In conclusion:

Vancouver keeps it's defense - chance for a Stanley Cup

Toronto keeps it's defense - chance for Boston to get another Top 5 pick.

End of discussion.

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