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thoughts toward a big deal

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Old
01-27-2011, 04:35 PM
  #26
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Does anyone really think Gaborik is going to be part of a trade?
"Reports" that NYR are entertaining offers without seriously looking to move him is probably right.
just looking to see if there is any combination worth considering.
Not looking to rush him or Girardi out the door; just seeking to upgrade.

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01-27-2011, 04:37 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Sharp and Seabrook have a combined cap hit of 7.4 mil.

Gaborik's cap hit is 7.5 mil. Chicago doesn't have the cap space to take on Girardi's cap hit.
100% correct.
That's why I was looking at possible parts for X and Y to see if the cap hit can be managed.

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01-27-2011, 04:45 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
Seabrook is a great player, but why the need to disrupt the chemistry between Staal and Girardi? They know each other, they know the system, and they are excellent together. So yes, Seabrook is better than Girardi, but who's to say Seabrook and Staal will be better than Girardi and Staal?


Also, if Gaborik is to be traded I think a superstar needs to be coming back, or a bigger player than Sharp is.
Underline: fair enough, but I consider the reward worth the risk.

Bold: The knee injury injury to Malkin should (concussion to Sid C. notwithstanding) have brought down his asking price, though Gaborik this year doesn't command what he did last year.

That said, who else besides Malkin would we look at moving Gaborik for?

Here, I split the proverbial loaf.
Sharp is already great, may develop further.

Seabrook is a keeper, but he's also the kind of guy you make a key component if you deal for LA's Doughty and want to keep Marc Staal ---- just a thought, options, options.

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01-27-2011, 04:56 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
What do the Rangers do with another center?

Seabrook also becomes one more player they need to re-sign this offseason.
Bold: Sharp can go to W, if needed; but I prefer him at C.
Anisimov + Sharp + Stepan is your foundation down the middle.
On a third/fourth line, if we haven't dealt Boyle, ok Boyle can also be C. But Boyle is also useful as a W, and some posts suggest he'd score even more if on W.

While Drury is still here, he's someone you'll play at C because of faceoffs. But that's 4th line/injury insurance on the first 3 Cs.
Christiansen? yeah, he's in the mix, but as a W (likely to be dealt)
Prospal? (see him as more of a W, and I'm not expecting anything serious from him anytime soon --- he's no spring chicken).


Underline: good point. But by moving Dan Girardi, most of his salary gets ported over to keep Seabrook. Yeah, we have to come up with another mil or so, but it's not like we need to suddenly come up 4-5 mil.

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01-27-2011, 05:03 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
All JOKING aside...this trade does not help the rangers. Yeah Seabrook is a nice player, but is it really worth it to get him so we can have a slight upgrade over Girardi while dealing Gaborik, our only "bonafide sniper" as you claim even if he is having an off year.

The answer is its not. Sharp is a good player too but you dont get players of gaborik's caliber very often. I'd rather have him and his off year than sharp having a good year.

Now if we were getting Seabrook back for say Gilroy, Top prospect, and a higher round pick I'd be willing to talk. But thats pretty unlikely chicago would do that. The point is I'd take seabrook in a case where we are keeping girardi and just adding Seabrook to the 6 DMen.
Consider Seabrook more than a "slight upgrade over Girardi".

Disagree as to: "I'd rather have him [Gaborik] and his off year than Sharp having a good year". Gaborik last year at his good year, that commands further review. But this year's Gabs vs. a consistent and developing Sharp, I would take Sharp.
Gabs has the speed and the shot and Sharp has everything else.

Last paragraph: not real. Have to give to get

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01-27-2011, 05:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NYRfan1823 View Post
So trade what we lack (scoring) for what we DONT need, a solid center, we need a top top center if we are going to aquire one.

All of these trade Girardi and Gaborik ideas are almost ridiculous. They aren't going anywhere.
Sharp is solid now and still has upside.
We can wait and see if Gabs regains his scoring touch.

Or we can hope the Pens will finally realize that putting too much in one basket is not a good idea, and keeping Crosby they'll move Malkin --- although that scenario is complicated both by the fact that they don't want to rush on Crosby's concussion, so nothing is happening right away, and even if it was, NYR could theoretically overpay to get Malkin, but Pens more likely to go not just outside division, but outside conference (all things being equal, which they may or may not be in any given trade scenario). So Gaborik is not going for Malkin.

If you move him, what do you think you can get for him, and from which club?

Sharp + the upgrade less what extra has to be thrown in is another really good C, bottom line, and I think that's still a net +.

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01-27-2011, 05:12 PM
  #32
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bleh. bleh. bleh. Sharp is a good player but not worth Gaborik. For all we know, this could be his only excellent season of his career. I think he has some good hockey still ahead of him but he's also a UFA after next year while Gaborik is signed through 2014.

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01-27-2011, 05:14 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ragshockey88 View Post
let this team get healthy and make a run they dont need any trades right now
By all means get healthy.
And really by all means no stupid deals.

But if there's a good opportunity, that should be considered.

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01-27-2011, 05:23 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by NYR BLUE18 View Post
Yea we need a first line center and a veteran d-man, but some of the speculation trades people make on this freakin site are ridiculous things THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. 90% of the time they mention players that arent even available. Nobody on the current rangers roster should go anywhere, except for maybe drury and well is 100% UNMOVABLE. Cally will wear the C soon enough anyway, with duby and staal with the A's.
Bold: Who's not available, set in stone?
They traded Orr. Gretzky. Messier. The guys mentioned here are theoretically available.
There are whole threads now about Seabrook possibly being shopped, NOW.
Before better moves presented themselves at the draft, Sharp was apparently on the block.

Gabs would be looked at if for no other reason than to repurpose his salary/cap hit. That alone is not enough to rush him off this club, even with a bad slump. But surely you would entertain offers.
Girardi has a loyal base. Again, unless I'm upgrading he's a keeper; reasonably priced, not a bargain, not too much. But if the cost of upgrade can be swallowed --- a legitimate separate question --- why not move Girardi + for Seabrook +?

Underline: oppose on basic grounds of being open minded to new deals and further improvement.

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01-27-2011, 05:28 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I can't see why the Hawks would want to trade Sharp. He's one of the most underrated players in the league. An absolute beast defensevly and a quality offensive player who can create for himself and for others. Getzlaf isn't going anywhere, either.

Agree as to the upside of Sharp, even if you've perhaps overstated it very slightly.
And I'm surprised by my fellow Ranger fans' response to date.

That's why I said in my OP, what would be fair value, then a little more to make the deal go through...

There are reasons already stated as to why this might be a good deal for CBH, although again, it would depend upon X and Y. {Those reasons are Girardi is D replacement for Seabrook for less $$, Gaborik very fast skater with great shot could fit in with top Hawk forwards, and if Gaborik did fit nicely, and they wanted to move Hossa for re-purposing cap, this would create such option. And Talbot as a G prospect is another +.}


Last edited by bernmeister: 01-27-2011 at 05:33 PM. Reason: content clarification
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01-27-2011, 05:39 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
bleh. bleh. bleh. Sharp is a good player but not worth Gaborik. For all we know, this could be his only excellent season of his career. I think he has some good hockey still ahead of him but he's also a UFA after next year while Gaborik is signed through 2014.
Underline: Sharp already had a breakout season last year.
Bold: Yeah, but Gabs is making like 7mil +; again, a lot depends upon other pieces "X + Y" to both make deal cap compliant and make enough incentive to deal. But this aside, Gabs for Sharp gives us cap room, even allowing for the extra we'd have to pay Seabrook, and that's cap $$ to resign our core and think of a down payment on Richards.

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01-27-2011, 06:23 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
If for the right price kovy could be pried + bundled w/Gabby + to get Malkin/J Staal plus for us, then yeah, I'd give Pens that "supreme line".
somebody's been playing some NHL 11

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01-28-2011, 12:08 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Consider Seabrook more than a "slight upgrade over Girardi".

Disagree as to: "I'd rather have him [Gaborik] and his off year than Sharp having a good year". Gaborik last year at his good year, that commands further review. But this year's Gabs vs. a consistent and developing Sharp, I would take Sharp.
Gabs has the speed and the shot and Sharp has everything else.

Last paragraph: not real. Have to give to get
Actually I wont consider him more. Do you look at the stats or do you just ignore them? Do you pay attention how Girardi has actually played this year? Fine let me enlighten you.

Seabrook: Age: 25....This season: 3 G 23 A 26 P -6 $3.5 million salary who is an RFA at the end of the year

Girardi; Age: 26....This season: 3 G 20 A 23 P +8 $3.3 million salary and locked up til age 30.

There stats the last few seasons are very similar. Seabrook has had the luxury of playing on a much more talented team. And like others have mentioned I'd wonder how he would look without his partner, Keith. They both log a lot of ice time. Theres just no incentive to make the deal.

LOL at your statements about gaborik and sharp.

First I have no clue what you mean by Gaborik's season last year "commands further review." He an elite forward in this league, one of the best snipers in the world. What review does it need? To see if each goal that he scored was legitimate? To see if he's a fluke player because I can assure you he's anything but.

And a consistent and developing Sharp? What consistency? He has been inconsistent his entire career. Or at least he has consistently been a 30 point player until the last few years. He's only recorded 60 points twice. He plays with some of the best forwards in the league. Who does gaborik play with? Oh yeah thats right a revolving door of forwards, who albeit have some talent, but are nowhere near the level of a Toews, Kane, or Hossa.

And developing Sharp? He's 29 YEARS OLD. In fact he;s a year older than Gaborik. What in the world are you talking about? LOL if he's still "developing" he's in trouble because he's going to be hitting the 30 mark soon.

Good you take sharp, go be a blackhawks fan. Or go take him in NHL 11. Anyone who would take sharp over gaborik needs to get their head examined. Gabs having the speed and shot is a helluva lot more valuable than whatever "everything else" means as to what sharp has to offer. Because Gaborik and the off year he is having will still score more goals than Sharp ever has in his career in a single season. Oh wait he was able to score 36 ONE YEAR. Gaborik might still come close to that. You want to be reminded how many times gaborik has scored 30? 6 times, two of which went on to be 40 goal seasons. One of those 40 goal seasons being last year.

My trade proposal wasnt realistic? I had said myself I wasnt sure if it was any good. But its not far off what Seabrook is truly worth. You want to over value the blackhawks players then go ahead. But some people here understand value and reality.

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01-28-2011, 02:58 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Haven't fully considered this, and I'd like some feedback as the idea is developed:

What about something along the lines of:

Gaborik + Girardi + Talbot + X
for
Seabrook + Sharp + Y

Basic thought:
Girardi is not as complete as Seabrook but he will do the whole D thing and not embarrass at getting the puck to the offense. Talbot is a good G prospect, CBH may want options in that regard. CBH have ample D prospects in their system.
Gaborik is inconsistent, but he's still a bonafide sniper w/a shot and may well ignite with change of scenery. Losing Sharp hurts, and that's part of what has to be worked out.

for NYR
upgrade at D
another solid two way C

The ? is how much more, in players and swap of picks, do NYR have to give to make this appealing to CBH.

Don't overpay. That's easy.
Try to figure out what is fair value, and then what do you add to that which is enticing enough, on balance, to induce Hawks to say yes...

Thanks in advance for your feedback, particularly any analytical input...
This trade makes no sense for the Blackhawks though. They have more than enough big contracts as it is and they are probably looking at moving them, not adding to them. I think it has been said before, Sharp and Seabrook currently have a combined salary which is less than the one of Gaborik. And they are right up to the cap. No way they will fit Girardi as well. When you propose a trade, you have to make sure it makes at least some sense for both sides. This one just doesn't.

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01-28-2011, 06:20 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I can't see why the Hawks would want to trade Sharp. He's one of the most underrated players in the league. An absolute beast defensevly and a quality offensive player who can create for himself and for others. Getzlaf isn't going anywhere, either.
and to think Sharp was only traded for crap in 2005.


2005/12/05 Philadelphia Flyers traded Patrick Sharp and Eric Meloche to the Chicago Blackhawks for Matt Ellison and a 3rd round selection in 2006.


his value is alot higher now. one of the bad moves by the Flyers...


id love Sharp on the Rangers but the Hawks would most likely ask for Dubinsky or Callahan. no way sather pulls the trigger on that.


if Sharp becomes an UFA, id rather the Rangers sign him than Richards. hed be a little cheaper. no point using most of the cap space on one player.

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01-28-2011, 08:39 AM
  #41
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No to BIG deal
Yes to staying the course with the current team

I am in for a small deal using spare parts to acquire a PP Dman like a McCabe as a Rental but Rental only. No contracts for next yr. I am ok with picks preferably a 3rd -7th. Maybe the 2nd but has to be a guy like Kaberle.

I don't think the team will win this year so no to the big deal but YES to signing Richards next yr and this team may be close to real contender in 2 yrs once everyone matures even more.

I like what I see for sure

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01-28-2011, 12:49 PM
  #42
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Patriks7 View Post
This trade makes no sense for the Blackhawks though. They have more than enough big contracts as it is and they are probably looking at moving them, not adding to them. I think it has been said before, Sharp and Seabrook currently have a combined salary which is less than the one of Gaborik. And they are right up to the cap. No way they will fit Girardi as well. When you propose a trade, you have to make sure it makes at least some sense for both sides. This one just doesn't.
That is partly why, in my defense, I clearly indicated this was not a straight 2 for 2, but one with X + Y, which was not only to better the deal for both clubs, but also to make it close to or actually cap compliant.

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01-28-2011, 12:51 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Punxrocknyc19 View Post
and to think Sharp was only traded for crap in 2005.

2005/12/05 Philadelphia Flyers traded Patrick Sharp and Eric Meloche to the Chicago Blackhawks for Matt Ellison and a 3rd round selection in 2006.

his value is alot higher now. one of the bad moves by the Flyers...

id love Sharp on the Rangers but the Hawks would most likely ask for Dubinsky or Callahan. no way sather pulls the trigger on that.

if Sharp becomes an UFA, id rather the Rangers sign him than Richards. hed be a little cheaper. no point using most of the cap space on one player.
Underline: agree. That's why some different variation w/Gabby is what I threw out as a possible alternative.

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01-28-2011, 01:11 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
Actually I wont consider him more. Do you look at the stats or do you just ignore them? Do you pay attention how Girardi has actually played this year? Fine let me enlighten you.

Seabrook: Age: 25....This season: 3 G 23 A 26 P -6 $3.5 million salary who is an RFA at the end of the year

Girardi; Age: 26....This season: 3 G 20 A 23 P +8 $3.3 million salary and locked up til age 30.

There stats the last few seasons are very similar. Seabrook has had the luxury of playing on a much more talented team. And like others have mentioned I'd wonder how he would look without his partner, Keith. They both log a lot of ice time. Theres just no incentive to make the deal.

LOL at your statements about gaborik and sharp.

First I have no clue what you mean by Gaborik's season last year "commands further review." He an elite forward in this league, one of the best snipers in the world. What review does it need? To see if each goal that he scored was legitimate? To see if he's a fluke player because I can assure you he's anything but.

And a consistent and developing Sharp? What consistency? He has been inconsistent his entire career. Or at least he has consistently been a 30 point player until the last few years. He's only recorded 60 points twice. He plays with some of the best forwards in the league. Who does gaborik play with? Oh yeah thats right a revolving door of forwards, who albeit have some talent, but are nowhere near the level of a Toews, Kane, or Hossa.

And developing Sharp? He's 29 YEARS OLD. In fact he;s a year older than Gaborik. What in the world are you talking about? LOL if he's still "developing" he's in trouble because he's going to be hitting the 30 mark soon.

Good you take sharp, go be a blackhawks fan. Or go take him in NHL 11. Anyone who would take sharp over gaborik needs to get their head examined. Gabs having the speed and shot is a helluva lot more valuable than whatever "everything else" means as to what sharp has to offer. Because Gaborik and the off year he is having will still score more goals than Sharp ever has in his career in a single season. Oh wait he was able to score 36 ONE YEAR. Gaborik might still come close to that. You want to be reminded how many times gaborik has scored 30? 6 times, two of which went on to be 40 goal seasons. One of those 40 goal seasons being last year.

My trade proposal wasnt realistic? I had said myself I wasnt sure if it was any good. But its not far off what Seabrook is truly worth. You want to over value the blackhawks players then go ahead. But some people here understand value and reality.
1) Seabrook + Girardi: no denying the stats are similar, I didn't say they weren't. I think Seabrook is an upgrade on offense, and equal on defense. The contract is obvious as you described. I believe we could sign this somewhat better D for slightly more, a 1 mil or so per more. I don't think we're screwed there. And if somebody goes nuts and offers a crazy # we don't match, like $6.5-7mil, then as an RFA, we still get some compensation. Yes, you're right that there is a risk, but it is a reasonable one.

2) Gaborik is the better player, on the strength of offensive potential for which he has a bonafide track record, but has not shown enough of this season. Sharp IS reasonably close ballpark value, across the board, seems to have slightly less wear and tear, better checking skills, and is a lot less $$$ (cap hit).

We have to agree to disagree.
I would like to see what people would put in on the X and Y which I asked for in the original post. That would make for some interesting material. I'm sure many NYR and CBH fans would continue to extremes, but I believe there may be middle ground.

Whether that middle ground is good enough for both teams to consider win-win is another story...

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01-28-2011, 01:20 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
No to BIG deal
Yes to staying the course with the current team

I am in for a small deal using spare parts to acquire a PP Dman like a McCabe as a Rental but Rental only. No contracts for next yr. I am ok with picks preferably a 3rd -7th. Maybe the 2nd but has to be a guy like Kaberle.

I don't think the team will win this year so no to the big deal but YES to signing Richards next yr and this team may be close to real contender in 2 yrs once everyone matures even more.

I like what I see for sure
I view the big deal, which I clearly indicated by asking for X + Y in the OP, as a work in progress. I don't think the 2 for 2 I used as a starting point would change the team dramatically in a negative way, and would be more of a reinvention then a wholesale scrapping of our team. {The 2 Fs and 2 Ds are both close in age and across the board skill.} The X + Y could change that, but no one has yet filled in the blanks.

As for the balance,
no to McCabe
potentially yes to Kabs. [offer should be Kundratek + upgradeable 3 to 2 and likes of Weise/DuPont, depending on size + $$ of Kab resigning if he does].

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01-28-2011, 01:42 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
1) Seabrook + Girardi: no denying the stats are similar, I didn't say they weren't. I think Seabrook is an upgrade on offense, and equal on defense. The contract is obvious as you described. I believe we could sign this somewhat better D for slightly more, a 1 mil or so per more. I don't think we're screwed there. And if somebody goes nuts and offers a crazy # we don't match, like $6.5-7mil, then as an RFA, we still get some compensation. Yes, you're right that there is a risk, but it is a reasonable one.

2) Gaborik is the better player, on the strength of offensive potential for which he has a bonafide track record, but has not shown enough of this season. Sharp IS reasonably close ballpark value, across the board, seems to have slightly less wear and tear, better checking skills, and is a lot less $$$ (cap hit).

We have to agree to disagree.
I would like to see what people would put in on the X and Y which I asked for in the original post. That would make for some interesting material. I'm sure many NYR and CBH fans would continue to extremes, but I believe there may be middle ground.

Whether that middle ground is good enough for both teams to consider win-win is another story...
Listen I dont hate your idea of bringing in a guy like seabrook or a guy like sharp. But you dont bring those guys in if they arent going to help/improve the team.

Like you said Seabrook, AT THIS POINT, is just an upgrade offensively, and not by much imo. It is not worth dealing for him if it means trading girardi because that does not really improve the team. We need more depth behind the likes of Staal and Girardi. All your doing is replacing girardi with seabrook and not addressing the current problem. I also have to say that our 6-7 Defenseman right now (this is including MDZ as the 7th) have not been bad at all. Such an upgrade or any upgrade for that matter will be a deadline deal acquisition for a defenseman who is going to be a UFA. Maybe we go get Kaberle BUT I highly doubt that. So in this same case your also looking at a steady defenseman on the cheap. Your not making a big deal for a Seabrook type player and your not dealing girardi because that defeats the purpose.

I still disagree on gaborik. You dont just go and trade someone because they are having an "off year." I wouldnt even say he is having a bad season because he is still very capable of scoring 30 goals this season. You cant compare Sharp to gaborik. Yes sharp is close to his value in terms of salary and play. However, Gaborik is our ONE and ONLY legitimate offensive talent on this team. You dont trade gaborik unless you are replacing him with someone of the same caliber. We have enough players like patrick sharp on our team, who are even YOUNGER than he is. Dubinsky comes to mind. AA is still growing and developing. Those are two-way centers who play solid but are not 1st line centers. Sharp is the same and he is not a 1st line center. Do not be fooled by his statistics on a offensively stacked team. He is not a number one center who will put up 70 points every year. Like I said until the last few seasons he had been a 30-35 point player. I like sharp but he does not help/improve this team ESPECIALLY if you're dealing a world class forward for him.

So I cant really agree with anything here. I respect your interest in the two blackhawks players because they are indeed nice players, but thats all they are.

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01-28-2011, 02:05 PM
  #47
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i think Gabby isn't going to be traded. for a really really long time.

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01-28-2011, 02:14 PM
  #48
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When I look at the this trade I see NYR losing an irreplaceable talent in Gaborik and not getting one back. Sharp may be playing better right now today but Gaborik is the better player IMO by quite a bit. Also Giraradi is playing amazing so far this year, he shouldn't be moved for the possibility of a maybe getting a slightly better player back.

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01-28-2011, 03:51 PM
  #49
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
Listen I dont hate your idea of bringing in a guy like seabrook or a guy like sharp. But you dont bring those guys in if they arent going to help/improve the team.

Like you said Seabrook, AT THIS POINT, is just an upgrade offensively, and not by much imo. It is not worth dealing for him if it means trading girardi because that does not really improve the team. We need more depth behind the likes of Staal and Girardi. All your doing is replacing girardi with seabrook and not addressing the current problem. I also have to say that our 6-7 Defenseman right now (this is including MDZ as the 7th) have not been bad at all. Such an upgrade or any upgrade for that matter will be a deadline deal acquisition for a defenseman who is going to be a UFA. Maybe we go get Kaberle BUT I highly doubt that. So in this same case your also looking at a steady defenseman on the cheap. Your not making a big deal for a Seabrook type player and your not dealing girardi because that defeats the purpose.

I still disagree on gaborik. You dont just go and trade someone because they are having an "off year." I wouldnt even say he is having a bad season because he is still very capable of scoring 30 goals this season. You cant compare Sharp to gaborik. Yes sharp is close to his value in terms of salary and play. However, Gaborik is our ONE and ONLY legitimate offensive talent on this team. You dont trade gaborik unless you are replacing him with someone of the same caliber. We have enough players like patrick sharp on our team, who are even YOUNGER than he is. Dubinsky comes to mind. AA is still growing and developing. Those are two-way centers who play solid but are not 1st line centers. Sharp is the same and he is not a 1st line center. Do not be fooled by his statistics on a offensively stacked team. He is not a number one center who will put up 70 points every year. Like I said until the last few seasons he had been a 30-35 point player. I like sharp but he does not help/improve this team ESPECIALLY if you're dealing a world class forward for him.

So I cant really agree with anything here. I respect your interest in the two blackhawks players because they are indeed nice players, but thats all they are.
Thanks for the cordial closing.
We agree to disagree.

However, I do continue to invite you and everyone, both NYR + CBH fans particularly, to give some input on the X + Y I requested that would make the deal a winner, in your opinion.

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