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Old
01-27-2011, 09:58 PM
  #51
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
Most of the same people who use sound reason to knock Brown use the same reasoning to knock Kopitar.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in this thread and/or the GDT from last nights game (during the game) that both of them looked like they didn't even want to be there. That isn't a matter of points. It is all effort and heart. The sitting on your ass and looking lifeless and defeated to the referee doesn't show up in the box score.

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01-27-2011, 10:02 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in this thread and/or the GDT from last nights game (during the game) that both of them looked like they didn't even want to be there. That isn't a matter of points. It is all effort and heart. The sitting on your ass and looking lifeless and defeated to the referee doesn't show up in the box score.
They need a coach who isn't afraid to confront his star players and challenge them to be better players. If your best players aren't playing their best, you have to send a message so that everyone gets it. All the best coaches have done so in every sport. Bowman, Jackson, Riley, etc.

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01-27-2011, 10:05 PM
  #53
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by Thrice View Post
I question how far this team can go with both these players existing in their current roles. I'm just about to the point where I believe one of them needs to move on for their own good and for the good of the franchise.
I mentioned this in another thread about a week ago and people weren't too thrilled with the idea. But I completely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Kopitar is 12th in the NHL in scoring with 49 points in 50 games and is still only 23. You think the Kings want to move on without him?
It isn't a matter of getting rid of them for the sake of it. It all depends on who is coming back. If there were a legit #1 center out there to be had without giving up either of them, I'd say keep them both and give Kopitar a shot on the LW of whoever that player may be. If that doesn't work, you have a nice 1-2 punch down the middle. Now that is more than unlikely (acquiring a #1 w/o giving up Kopitar) so depending on who you get back, I'd certainly consider trading either of them. I think I'd rather see Brown go before Kopitar but you gotta give to get.

I just think that long term Brown can not be the captain of this team if he is going to disappear when the team needs him the most. Especially when other players on the team seemingly play the role of captain in the background much better than he does. I think removing the "C" from him and keeping him here could create resentment so I think he'd be the one I'd explore moving first.

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01-27-2011, 10:07 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
They need a coach who isn't afraid to confront his star players and challenge them to be better players. If your best players aren't playing their best, you have to send a message so that everyone gets it. All the best coaches have done so in every sport. Bowman, Jackson, Riley, etc.
Well I don't disagree there.

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01-27-2011, 10:15 PM
  #55
Ziggy Stardust
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After Marleau was stripped of his "C", he responded with a career year statistically. I doubt there would be any resentment from Brown, he's a team player and has shown he can make sacrifices (like his contract extension at a low price) for the benefit of the team, which is why I think Lombardi's crew decided to make him the team leader since he set that standard as an example of the type of loyalty he wants to see from his players.

I think Kopitar and Brown have been handled with kid gloves since Terry Murray took over. We've seen Frolov be made an example out of and countless other players, but not Kopitar or Brown.

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01-27-2011, 10:26 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
Forget the lazy, uninspired play, let's go with something most of you will understand: Brown has 1 goal in 15 games. 1 in 15. He and Kopitar are out-dueling each other for the most inept first line goal scorer in the league, and you guys are happy with it?
Not really, cause when the Stoll line cools off again, and they will, Kopitar and Brown are going to need to be playing well to pick up the slack.

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01-27-2011, 10:31 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Kopitar is 12th in the NHL in scoring with 49 points in 50 games and is still only 23. You think the Kings want to move on without him?
I think if things continue as they have been, Dean would love to find a player that Kopitar can complement instead of vice versa.


Last edited by KINGS17: 01-27-2011 at 11:31 PM.
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Old
01-27-2011, 10:43 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in this thread and/or the GDT from last nights game (during the game) that both of them looked like they didn't even want to be there. That isn't a matter of points. It is all effort and heart. The sitting on your ass and looking lifeless and defeated to the referee doesn't show up in the box score.
Respectfully, this is absurd. Kopitar is playing his heart out. He is consistently the best two way forward we have on the ice. He is simply in a drought and part of that is the role he is placed in. Murray's system stifles creativity and puck possession and Kopitar is a creative center who thrives when the puck is on his stick.

Brown is a different animal all together. He is a liability on defense and useless on offense but we have seen this before with him and as recent as last season when he went on a similar streak. I have accepted that Dustin is a streaky player but his streak this season sucks in timing. Like others have mentioned, you are wearing the C man, grow a pair and leave it all on the ice.

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01-27-2011, 10:47 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Respectfully, this is absurd. Kopitar is playing his heart out. He is consistently the best two way forward we have on the ice. He is simply in a drought and part of that is the role he is placed in. Murray's system stifles creativity and puck possession and Kopitar is a creative center who thrives when the puck is on his stick.
... Well, this part I agree with 100%, anyway.

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01-27-2011, 11:38 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Respectfully, this is absurd. Kopitar is playing his heart out. He is consistently the best two way forward we have on the ice. He is simply in a drought and part of that is the role he is placed in. Murray's system stifles creativity and puck possession and Kopitar is a creative center who thrives when the puck is on his stick.
I was referring to his play last night. I think he had a pretty poor effort. That whole line was pretty bad the whole night. They all looked completely out of sync. Otherwise, I think he has had a good season but I want to see him take it to the next level. Maybe another coach can bring it out of him?

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01-27-2011, 11:39 PM
  #61
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I thought Kopitar had a very strong shift in OT where he took control. He stepped it up (as did most of the Kings) in the extra period.

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01-28-2011, 12:24 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Kopitar is 12th in the NHL in scoring with 49 points in 50 games and is still only 23. You think the Kings want to move on without him?
Nope, he's the one I'd keep. I'd much rather see Lombardi move Brown for a young winger with upside.

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01-28-2011, 12:32 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Thrice View Post
Nope, he's the one I'd keep. I'd much rather see Lombardi move Brown for a young winger with upside.
Eeeh, I'm as harsh of a critic of Brown as you'll find. But what young winger with upside is there that can step in and do what Brown does, at least when Brown is playing at the top of his game? They're not going to get a Taylor Hall for him, so I don't think it would be wise to move Brown due to his inconsistencies.

The team has just placed too much of a burden on his shoulders by giving him the captaincy. That is something that should be earned, not handed out. Even with his struggles, we are all aware of how much of an impact player he can be when he is hitting and driving the net aggressively. It's just been too intermittent with him.

I'd rather see the Kings keep Brown where he is, place the "C" on a real leader (I think Johnson will make a good captain some day), and specifically give him simple direction and assignments as the top line RW: give the puck to Kopitar, don't try to beat players one-on-one, and drive to the net. He needs to simplify his game rather than trying to do too damn much.

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01-28-2011, 12:57 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Eeeh, I'm as harsh of a critic of Brown as you'll find. But what young winger with upside is there that can step in and do what Brown does, at least when Brown is playing at the top of his game? They're not going to get a Taylor Hall for him, so I don't think it would be wise to move Brown due to his inconsistencies.

The team has just placed too much of a burden on his shoulders by giving him the captaincy. That is something that should be earned, not handed out. Even with his struggles, we are all aware of how much of an impact player he can be when he is hitting and driving the net aggressively. It's just been too intermittent with him.

I'd rather see the Kings keep Brown where he is, place the "C" on a real leader (I think Johnson will make a good captain some day), and specifically give him simple direction and assignments as the top line RW: give the puck to Kopitar, don't try to beat players one-on-one, and drive to the net. He needs to simplify his game rather than trying to do too damn much.
Yup.

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01-28-2011, 01:09 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Eeeh, I'm as harsh of a critic of Brown as you'll find. But what young winger with upside is there that can step in and do what Brown does, at least when Brown is playing at the top of his game? They're not going to get a Taylor Hall for him, so I don't think it would be wise to move Brown due to his inconsistencies.

The team has just placed too much of a burden on his shoulders by giving him the captaincy. That is something that should be earned, not handed out. Even with his struggles, we are all aware of how much of an impact player he can be when he is hitting and driving the net aggressively. It's just been too intermittent with him.

I'd rather see the Kings keep Brown where he is, place the "C" on a real leader (I think Johnson will make a good captain some day), and specifically give him simple direction and assignments as the top line RW: give the puck to Kopitar, don't try to beat players one-on-one, and drive to the net. He needs to simplify his game rather than trying to do too damn much.
Well said.

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Old
01-28-2011, 04:12 AM
  #66
Josh Deitell
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In regards to Kopi and possibly moving on without him, just a reminder that he is only 23 years old and comes from a non-traditional hockey country. After that, he played in the offense-first SEL, where he wasn't exactly heavily exposed to body contact and intense defensive structure, before jumping straight to the NHL. He's likely going to get better every year until he's almost 30. From all I've seen of him in practice, he's a hard worker with a good attitude that loves to play the game. Those types of players don't always have ceilings.

Trading Kopitar would be an immense mistake. He has the potential to have his number up in the rafters some day.

As for Brownie, he takes his captaincy pretty seriously. Too seriously maybe, but it also puts the spotlight on him more than it should. If he was on the second line without a letter, he wouldn't get half as much criticism as he does now. I think he's a good captain. I'm sure it's not easy, particularly when things have gone sour. The team has committed a big part of their future success to Brown. Teams rarely win Cups without solid captains. The jury's still out on him as the team's leader, in my opinion. I don't think anyone will disagree that when he's on his game, he's a star on this team with his hitting and can produce offensively, but consistency is an issue.

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01-28-2011, 09:35 AM
  #67
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If only we would have drafted Zach Parise instead of Downtown Dustin Brown like I asked them to.


Kopitar + Parise = DETH!

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01-28-2011, 10:47 AM
  #68
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Kopitar isn't going anywhere unless Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin are coming back. In other words, Kopitar isn't going anywhere.

The criticism that Kopitar gets is because everyone can see the immense talent and physical size of Kopitar, yet he disappears too much in the offensive zone. Until Murray is gone, we will not know if the cause is Murray's system or not, but Kopitar needs to drive to the front of the net way more than he does. Since Loktionov has been recalled, I've seen him in front of the net more than Kopitar, which is sad. Kopitar is a beast when he uses his size and drives right through the middle.

I wish Kopitar would give the puck to Loktionov more on the rush and just drive through the middle. That would cause a lot of problems with the defense since most of the time Kopitar will take both defenseman to the front and Loktionov has the vision to hit the third option coming from behind.

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01-28-2011, 12:35 PM
  #69
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I just want to make myself clear.

1) I like Brown as a player. Not a big fan of him as Captain.
2) I really like Kopitar as a player but I think he has so much untapped potential.
3) I don't WANT to trade either of them but I'm not opposed to it. I would much rather move Brown before Kopitar but to move either, there would have to be a reason to. With Kopitar, there just isn't scenario I could think of where he would be moved so it is kind of a moot point.

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01-28-2011, 12:54 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I just want to make myself clear.

1) I like Brown as a player. Not a big fan of him as Captain.
2) I really like Kopitar as a player but I think he has so much untapped potential.
3) I don't WANT to trade either of them but I'm not opposed to it. I would much rather move Brown before Kopitar but to move either, there would have to be a reason to. With Kopitar, there just isn't scenario I could think of where he would be moved so it is kind of a moot point.
I agree with 108% of this

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01-28-2011, 01:05 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I just want to make myself clear.

1) I like Brown as a player. Not a big fan of him as Captain.
2) I really like Kopitar as a player but I think he has so much untapped potential.
3) I don't WANT to trade either of them but I'm not opposed to it. I would much rather move Brown before Kopitar but to move either, there would have to be a reason to. With Kopitar, there just isn't scenario I could think of where he would be moved so it is kind of a moot point.

The ONLY way you move Kopitar is if you feel like he's a waste of money and BOTH Schenn and Loktionov are a better option for #1 & #2 centers. This isn't likely since Loktionov is getting thrown onto LW and they both are too inexperienced for that kind of pressure.

Brown is a good guy, but I honestly feel like Moller has more scoring talent suitable for the top line RW. Simmonds might want to be considered as well. His numbers are down, but his game is smarter and has an edge.

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01-28-2011, 01:17 PM
  #72
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Brown is a good guy, but I honestly feel like Moller has more scoring talent suitable for the top line RW. Simmonds might want to be considered as well. His numbers are down, but his game is smarter and has an edge.
... I've called for this since the beginning of the season, and I still think it would work. Murray didn't give this enough of a shot to make a real judgment one way or the other. It would take some balls to write out Loktionov-Kopitar-Simmonds on the top line, but I can't help but think that a coach with more confidence in himself wouldn't be afraid to give it a shot. There's no question in my mind that Simmonds has the all-around ability to be a top line player in this league.

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01-28-2011, 01:19 PM
  #73
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... I've called for this since the beginning of the season, and I still think it would work. Murray didn't give this enough of a shot to make a real judgment one way or the other. It would take some balls to write out Loktionov-Kopitar-Simmonds on the top line, but I can't help but think that a coach with more confidence in himself wouldn't be afraid to give it a shot. There's no question in my mind that Simmonds has the all-around ability to be a top line player in this league.
I would have less questions about him being on that line that Brown

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01-28-2011, 01:41 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Kopitar isn't going anywhere unless Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin are coming back. In other words, Kopitar isn't going anywhere.

The criticism that Kopitar gets is because everyone can see the immense talent and physical size of Kopitar, yet he disappears too much in the offensive zone. Until Murray is gone, we will not know if the cause is Murray's system or not, but Kopitar needs to drive to the front of the net way more than he does. Since Loktionov has been recalled, I've seen him in front of the net more than Kopitar, which is sad. Kopitar is a beast when he uses his size and drives right through the middle.

I wish Kopitar would give the puck to Loktionov more on the rush and just drive through the middle. That would cause a lot of problems with the defense since most of the time Kopitar will take both defenseman to the front and Loktionov has the vision to hit the third option coming from behind.
This is the piece that I question daily. In Murrays system the F3 plays so high, and typically Kopitar is that guy unless he has the puck down low. On everyline, that F3 spot will not drive to the net or anything unless there is a breakdown by the D. When Murray first started, you saw Kopitar driving to the middle from the F3 spot, and he would get dogged for his defensive positioning.

As to your second point, I like the idea, but that would leave DB in the F3 Spot, and you take him away from his strength which Murray probably wouldnt like. I dont think ive ever seen Murrays system have 3 guys low. I would suggest having him give the puck to lokti on the wing and have DB drive the net, and have Kopitar go into the high slot (not close to the blue line), it would open up some nice options.

I think Kopitar is very coachable as seen by his vast improvement on the defensive side of things in the past few years.

As for trading him...im sorry schenn or lokti will never be as good as Kopitar, and unless we are getting someone like Crosby, Malkin, or Ovie it would be a dumb move.

He brings so many things to the table every night.

1. He is a PPG player in a D first system
2. He doesnt whine about playing the system or with lesser talent.
3. He is an Ironman, as he plays every game (knock on wood).
4. He is responsible defensively
5. He is young and still learning.

People are wayyy to critical on players since they want everything now. Most Centers dont really start blossoming until close to 25 (outside of generational or "eltie" talents). One could argue his progression is ahead of some pretty darn good centers including the likes of Brad Richards, Jeff Carter, Sedin. He is progressing at the same pace as Eric Staal...which i would take any day of the week. People preach character, and i think this is one kid who has a ton of it. He is a silent shy type of guy and i dont know about his leadership skills in the locker room...but the guy has all the tools..and will only get better.

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01-28-2011, 01:43 PM
  #75
Buddy The Elf
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I would have less questions about him being on that line that Brown
Yeah he can at least cycle the puck effectively and has decent puck possesion skills. Brown is the King of Flub. He is a serious Motherflubber!

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