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Old
01-27-2011, 06:07 PM
  #26
Johnny Utah
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Herby is a hater, we all know that.

Poni sucks too.

Kings play teams that have guys such as MacIntyre, Stortini, Jackman, Shelley, King, Erskine, Boll, Sestito, Prust, Konopka, Gillies, Parros and Sutton all coming up...You really expect 20 year old Clifford to fight half those guys and make it out alive?

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01-27-2011, 07:07 PM
  #27
Buddy The Elf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Herby is a hater, we all know that.

Poni sucks too.

Kings play teams that have guys such as MacIntyre, Stortini, Jackman, Shelley, King, Erskine, Boll, Sestito, Prust, Konopka, Gillies, Parros and Sutton all coming up...You really expect 20 year old Clifford to fight half those guys and make it out alive?
No but I don't expect Westgarth to either. Westgarth has been in what.. 6 fights this year? I don't mind the Kings carrying an enforcer against the Ducks or other games that could potentially get out of hand but you can't argue with the basis of the thread. If the team is winning games without him in the lineup, they ought to continue putting in a guy who can skate a regular shift without being a liability.

I love your enthusiasm about hockey fights and I love a hockey fight as much as the next guy (staged or not) but if the Kings want to make the playoffs, the need to ice the lineup that gives them the best chance to win. The 4th line essentially won the game for the Kings last night and I doubt that happens with Westgarth out there.

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01-27-2011, 07:39 PM
  #28
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Smyth and Stoll (and a bunch of other players) all go out of their way to give thanks for their heavyweight Westgarth and both middleweights in Clifford and Simmonds.

Reread TG's post.

These are essential players (both Westgarth and Clifford) with essential roles. Just because we don't have to worry about all the stick work, etc, that goes on outside of camera view doesn't mean the "new NHL" doesn't need tough players willing to step in. To me, it means the opposite. Having them provides an asset some other teams can't deal with.

Clifford is going to become a very good power forward. We already know what Simmonds brings. Westgarth is not as bad as some make him out to be - statistics be damned. He has skill, certainly enough to build a career as a 5-10 minute enforcer, and he is improving.

If the players want these guys covering their back - and that's really what it's about - I say they get to keep him. Do you really want to replace him with another guy who is smaller, doesn't fight, and scores 5 goals a year? What's the point?

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01-27-2011, 07:48 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
No but I don't expect Westgarth to either. Westgarth has been in what.. 6 fights this year? I don't mind the Kings carrying an enforcer against the Ducks or other games that could potentially get out of hand but you can't argue with the basis of the thread. If the team is winning games without him in the lineup, they ought to continue putting in a guy who can skate a regular shift without being a liability.

I love your enthusiasm about hockey fights and I love a hockey fight as much as the next guy (staged or not) but if the Kings want to make the playoffs, the need to ice the lineup that gives them the best chance to win. The 4th line essentially won the game for the Kings last night and I doubt that happens with Westgarth out there.
Sometimes the big guy prevents a fight just by being there. Again, statistics don't tell the whole story or context. And maybe with Westgarth off the ice, the other lines and D start getting beat on - with physical play and scraps. What do you want to happen? You'd rather Doughty breaks a couple of fingers or Johnson's nose gets flattened standing up for Kopitar or Williams? That's just as bad as them getting tricked into the penalty box by an opponent agitator.
What if they're out for a couple of weeks? Who would you rather have on IR because of a fight? Westgarth? Greene?

How well will the Kings skill guys play looking over their shoulder?

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01-27-2011, 08:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
You guys start to see what i see.

If i want a player removed from the roster i have reasons for that.

In Westgarth case it's that he makes a complete line useless because Murray limits
it to 3 minutes ice time.
Usualle this line includes player like Richardson and Pony or Clifford.
You can call it a lucky shot, but these were the guys who scored last night.

Why Murray is still dressing up guys like Westgarth is way beyond me. Same with Stoll on the PP.
It just makes no sense.

To change our game to be more flashy and agressive we have to dress 4 mobile lines.
That would give us many options to score.
We have the guys for that, we have the talent and we have the speed.


this is one of the major reason why i want this coaching staff gone.
Our present system leads to nowhere because it was played in the 70's and the opponents just need mediocre players to take us out of the game.
It is only coincidence that we are agreeing, I assure you.

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01-27-2011, 08:26 PM
  #31
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The Kings are 1-5 in games with Westgarth fights, and you can directly point to his unnecessary scraps (losses) to Neil in Ottawa and Scott (round 2) in Chicago as the moments that momentum changed in favor of the home team.

The only game that the Kings have won that featured a Westgarth fight was at home against the Islanders.

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01-27-2011, 08:43 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
How well will the Kings skill guys play looking over their shoulder?
The proof is in the pudding my friend. You answered your own question. They seem to do just fine playing without him. They didn't appear to be looking over their shoulder last night. Look, when the team has the offensive prowess to overcome a guy like Westgarth's shortcomings, I'm all for it. However, when the team is fighting for a playoff spot and it is evident the team can be successful without him, it is time to ice the best lineup you can.

The difference in team toughness between the 10/11 Kings team from the 08/09 Kings team is night and day. They aren't taking the **** they used to because they have guys with character that won't put up with it. And this team still isn't exactly "tough". However, you have guys like Clifford and Simmonds that are more than willing to drop the gloves. You also have guys like Richie and Greene who, while are not fighters, have had no problem standing up for themselves and teammates.

I'm not advocating Clifford to do Westgarth's job as an "enforcer" and take on heavyweights but I think Clifford has been 100x more beneficial to the team this year because 1) he can skate a regular shift and 2) there a hell of a lot more guys in the NHL that are willing to scrap with a guy like Clifford and more often than not, take a pounding. I think if anyone on the team has sent a message to their opponents this season, it has been Clifford.

I haven't bothered to look but I'm curious to know how many fights there have been without Westgarth in the lineup. What kind of mayhem is going on without him there riding the pine?

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01-28-2011, 03:02 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
Smyth and Stoll (and a bunch of other players) all go out of their way to give thanks for their heavyweight Westgarth and both middleweights in Clifford and Simmonds.

Reread TG's post.

These are essential players (both Westgarth and Clifford) with essential roles. Just because we don't have to worry about all the stick work, etc, that goes on outside of camera view doesn't mean the "new NHL" doesn't need tough players willing to step in. To me, it means the opposite. Having them provides an asset some other teams can't deal with.

Clifford is going to become a very good power forward. We already know what Simmonds brings. Westgarth is not as bad as some make him out to be - statistics be damned. He has skill, certainly enough to build a career as a 5-10 minute enforcer, and he is improving.

If the players want these guys covering their back - and that's really what it's about - I say they get to keep him. Do you really want to replace him with another guy who is smaller, doesn't fight, and scores 5 goals a year? What's the point?

An asset some teams cant deal with? Are you serious?

Westgarth: "lets fight"
Other guy: "No"
Westgarth: "Cmon lets go!"
Other guy: "No"
Westgarth: "blah blah blah"
::Other guy skates away::


Problem solved for other teams who cant "deal with our asset"..

Westgarth is a complete waste of a roster spot.. how the hell do players like him make it into the NHL anyway?.. he cant pass, shoot, stick handle, or skate.. I cant understand it for the life of me.


..and whats the point of having another guy who scores just 5 goals a year? A potential OTL or WIN in 5 games in which we have lost by 1 goal.. another 5 to 10 points a year.. which will sure as hell be valuable at the end of the regular season when were fighting for the playoffs in the wild wild west.


Last edited by s3machine*: 01-28-2011 at 03:07 AM.
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01-28-2011, 10:00 AM
  #34
Johnny Utah
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Well, every player on the Kings team and the GM disagrees with you...so I guess you know more than them. They all love having Westy on the team and in the line-up...Notice how much cockier Doughty and Brown play when Westy in playing.

Clifford is going to get killed one of these days having to fight Westy's battles and Murray and the rest of you are gonna regret saying a 20 year old middleweight can do the job of a 6'4 225" lb experienced heavyweight. Clifford is a kid who should be playing and occasionally fighting, that's it, not fighting every other game because the Kings would rather use Ponikarovsky, who has 4 goals and 4 assists, just one more assist than Westgarth. Who, besides the game against SJ has been an utter bust.

Everyone has a job to do on this team, either score, hit, be a shutdown D, kill penalties, etc.....Westgarth's job is to stand up for his team mates, play physical and fight....he has done that. Poni's job has been to score goals....he HAS NOT done that.

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01-28-2011, 10:29 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Well, every player on the Kings team and the GM disagrees with you...so I guess you know more than them. They all love having Westy on the team and in the line-up...Notice how much cockier Doughty and Brown play when Westy in playing.

Clifford is going to get killed one of these days having to fight Westy's battles and Murray and the rest of you are gonna regret saying a 20 year old middleweight can do the job of a 6'4 225" lb experienced heavyweight. Clifford is a kid who should be playing and occasionally fighting, that's it, not fighting every other game because the Kings would rather use Ponikarovsky, who has 4 goals and 4 assists, just one more assist than Westgarth. Who, besides the game against SJ has been an utter bust.

Everyone has a job to do on this team, either score, hit, be a shutdown D, kill penalties, etc.....Westgarth's job is to stand up for his team mates, play physical and fight....he has done that. Poni's job has been to score goals....he HAS NOT done that.
You still haven't addressed the fact that the Kings have a substantially better record with Westgarth in the press box than on the ice. Rolling four lines that can skate and contribute on both sides of the ice is a plus.

Honestly, I can't notice how much cockier Doughty and Brown play when Westy is in. I'm not even really sure Westgarth is doing his job very well. He's not intimidating, he's too late to hit anybody, and he hardly ever fights. He's not a presence defensively or offensively. Almost a non-factor when he's on the ice.

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01-28-2011, 10:54 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Herby is a hater, we all know that.

Poni sucks too.

Kings play teams that have guys such as MacIntyre, Stortini, Jackman, Shelley, King, Erskine, Boll, Sestito, Prust, Konopka, Gillies, Parros and Sutton all coming up...You really expect 20 year old Clifford to fight half those guys and make it out alive?


What's the Kings record with him in the lineup again?

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01-28-2011, 11:32 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Everyone has a job to do on this team, either score, hit, be a shutdown D, kill penalties, etc.....Westgarth's job is to stand up for his team mates, play physical and fight....he has done that. Poni's job has been to score goals....he HAS NOT done that.
... Look - first things first, I don't consider the team record when Westgarth is in/out of the lineup to be anything meaningful. I don't know that having Westgarth in the lineup has actively cost the Kings games, and I don't believe team stats can be used to judge a single player one way or the other.

But. For you to say that Ponikarovsky's job is to score goals is inaccurate, and there's no question when everything is taken together, that he's the guy to have in the lineup. Ponikarovsky was brought on as a depth player, a guy who could play a regular shift on the third line, see some time on the PK, and play on the top two lines in an emergency. Compare that to Westgarth, who is either fourth line or in the press box, and who can't be trusted to play either special team. Ponikarovsky has more hits than Westgarth (82 to 31), more blocked shots (22 to 3), and better defensive numbers (not just in plus/minus but in better shot totals for and against while he's on the ice). You can say Ponikarovsky has only one more assist than Westgarth does, but Ponikarovsky has four goals while Westgarth couldn't score in an empty rink. It's no contest, right?

But, beyond that - I can't believe that after fifty games in, you're still making a case for Westgarth being in there and still basing it on this tired notion that the team somehow plays better or braver with him out there. There is nothing you have to prove this. It's a myth. Case in point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Notice how much cockier Doughty and Brown play when Westy in playing.
... Just for the sake of being all "mythbusters" and s***, I looked up Doughty's game log this season, and matched up the games he's played with and without Westgarth in the lineup.

Doughty with Westgarth: 31 games, 2 goals, 16 points, .52 PPG, +7, 32 PIM

Doughty without Westgarth: 13 games, 2 goals, 10 points, .77 PPG, +8, 2 PIM

... So yeah, if Doughty's "cockier", it's not leading to more positive results.

After that, I looked up Brown's.

Brown with Westgarth: 36 games, 14 goals, 24 points, .67 PPG, +5, 35 PIM

Brown without Westgarth: 14 games, 3 goals, 13 points, .93 PPG, +9, 12 PIM


... Welp. The facts just don't bear this myth out, do they?

I gotta say - If I'm an opposing coach, I'm thanking my lucky stars when and if the Kings choose to waste a spot in the lineup so they can trot Westgarth's sorry ass out there for 5 minutes a game. I'd send a limo to pick up Westgarth to make sure he got to the rink, because if he's in there, then the Kings have one less player to worry about and one more player with which to exploit a mismatch.

Say what you want about Simmonds and Clifford being middleweights or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that those two guys can actually play the game, and as a coach, I would think it's better to roll over a normal four line rotation than to have to mix and match so I can "hide" a guy who's a liability.

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01-28-2011, 11:44 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Look - first things first, I don't consider the team record when Westgarth is in/out of the lineup to be anything meaningful. I don't know that having Westgarth in the lineup has actively cost the Kings games, and I don't believe team stats can be used to judge a single player one way or the other.

But. For you to say that Ponikarovsky's job is to score goals is inaccurate, and there's no question when everything is taken together, that he's the guy to have in the lineup. Ponikarovsky was brought on as a depth player, a guy who could play a regular shift on the third line, see some time on the PK, and play on the top two lines in an emergency. Compare that to Westgarth, who is either fourth line or in the press box, and who can't be trusted to play either special team. Ponikarovsky has more hits than Westgarth (82 to 31), more blocked shots (22 to 3), and better defensive numbers (not just in plus/minus but in better shot totals for and against while he's on the ice). You can say Ponikarovsky has only one more assist than Westgarth does, but Ponikarovsky has four goals while Westgarth couldn't score in an empty rink. It's no contest, right?

But, beyond that - I can't believe that after fifty games in, you're still making a case for Westgarth being in there and still basing it on this tired notion that the team somehow plays better or braver with him out there. There is nothing you have to prove this. It's a myth. Case in point:



... Just for the sake of being all "mythbusters" and s***, I looked up Doughty's game log this season, and matched up the games he's played with and without Westgarth in the lineup.

Doughty with Westgarth: 31 games, 2 goals, 16 points, .52 PPG, +7, 32 PIM

Doughty without Westgarth: 13 games, 2 goals, 10 points, .77 PPG, +8, 2 PIM

... So yeah, if Doughty's "cockier", it's not leading to more positive results.

After that, I looked up Brown's.

Brown with Westgarth: 36 games, 14 goals, 24 points, .67 PPG, +5, 35 PIM

Brown without Westgarth: 14 games, 3 goals, 13 points, .93 PPG, +9, 12 PIM


... Welp. The facts just don't bear this myth out, do they?

I gotta say - If I'm an opposing coach, I'm thanking my lucky stars when and if the Kings choose to waste a spot in the lineup so they can trot Westgarth's sorry ass out there for 5 minutes a game. I'd send a limo to pick up Westgarth to make sure he got to the rink, because if he's in there, then the Kings have one less player to worry about and one more player with which to exploit a mismatch.

Say what you want about Simmonds and Clifford being middleweights or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that those two guys can actually play the game, and as a coach, I would think it's better to roll over a normal four line rotation than to have to mix and match so I can "hide" a guy who's a liability.

JT with another pwnt!

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01-28-2011, 11:48 AM
  #39
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Well, every player on the Kings team and the GM disagrees with you...so I guess you know more than them. They all love having Westy on the team and in the line-up...Notice how much cockier Doughty and Brown play when Westy in playing.

Clifford is going to get killed one of these days having to fight Westy's battles and Murray and the rest of you are gonna regret saying a 20 year old middleweight can do the job of a 6'4 225" lb experienced heavyweight. Clifford is a kid who should be playing and occasionally fighting, that's it, not fighting every other game because the Kings would rather use Ponikarovsky, who has 4 goals and 4 assists, just one more assist than Westgarth. Who, besides the game against SJ has been an utter bust.

Everyone has a job to do on this team, either score, hit, be a shutdown D, kill penalties, etc.....Westgarth's job is to stand up for his team mates, play physical and fight....he has done that. Poni's job has been to score goals....he HAS NOT done that.
People have been saying Clifford is going to get Destroyed all season.

Well I am still waiting for that to happen, Most of the time Clifford has rolled who ever was dumb enough to scrap with him.

Pretty soon here the real pest, Avery, Carcill(the guys you should worry about), ETC are going to get the message. Don't scrap with Clifford he will hand you your teeth.

The HW are getting left behind in this new NHL they simply don't have the tools to keep up.

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01-28-2011, 11:57 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Herby is a hater, we all know that.

Poni sucks too.

Kings play teams that have guys such as MacIntyre, Stortini, Jackman, Shelley, King, Erskine, Boll, Sestito, Prust, Konopka, Gillies, Parros and Sutton all coming up...You really expect 20 year old Clifford to fight half those guys and make it out alive?
If most of those guys actively sought out a fight with Clifford, they'd be labeled chicken****. All that matters is winning games. Westgarth does not help us win games. I don't think he causes us to lose games, but he's certainly little help.

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01-28-2011, 12:05 PM
  #41
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If most of those guys actively sought out a fight with Clifford, they'd be labeled chicken****. All that matters is winning games. Westgarth does not help us win games. I don't think he causes us to lose games, but he's certainly little help.
The funny part is Clifford WOULD scrap with them, and probably hold his own. Then people would chalk it up too luck ETC.

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01-28-2011, 12:26 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by s3machine View Post
An asset some teams cant deal with? Are you serious?

Westgarth: "lets fight"
Other guy: "No"
Westgarth: "Cmon lets go!"
Other guy: "No"
Westgarth: "blah blah blah"
::Other guy skates away::


Problem solved for other teams who cant "deal with our asset"..

Westgarth is a complete waste of a roster spot.. how the hell do players like him make it into the NHL anyway?.. he cant pass, shoot, stick handle, or skate.. I cant understand it for the life of me.


..and whats the point of having another guy who scores just 5 goals a year? A potential OTL or WIN in 5 games in which we have lost by 1 goal.. another 5 to 10 points a year.. which will sure as hell be valuable at the end of the regular season when were fighting for the playoffs in the wild wild west.
Well no one addressed the issue of having skill players fight their own battles when necessary. Any comments on that idea? Or, do we all believe that fighting / running / chipping on a skill player is no longer an issue in the modern game?

With regards to refusal's to scrap: it's more like, "opposing tough guy / enforcer starts to run Brown, Doughty, etc. Westgarth is put on the ice. Runs slow down to manageable level. Offense starts up again." An actual fight is not always necessary. Clifford and Simmonds have won most of their scraps, but not all. One of the reasons they have done so is because opposing heavyweight's can't go after them. Again, you don't want skill in the box or injured.
That's why team love their enforcers - they take the injuries, the nicks, cuts, and damaged hands and wrists - that impede skill. I guess everyone here would prefer Brown fight his own battles, because, "he's supposed to be a POWER forward but he's a wuss". He's not soft. He's smart.

Our managers, coaches, and players all think Westgarth is necessary, that he helps them play better and with more confidence. Isn't their collective hockey knowledge and desire more important than trading or dropping Westgarth for another role player on the fourth line?

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01-28-2011, 12:28 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Well, every player on the Kings team and the GM disagrees with you...so I guess you know more than them. They all love having Westy on the team and in the line-up...Notice how much cockier Doughty and Brown play when Westy in playing.
That is great and all but the players and coaches loved Derek Armstrong too. Should we bring him back? I mean really.

Ignoring the deal with the record with/without Westgarth, you have so many other facts staring you in the face that you are ignoring. Just look at JT's post. To ignore the other things that Ponikarovsky does is just silly. The guy was brought here to do other things besides score and he has played on the 3rd line for the most part which isn't exaclty and offensive role.

I'm sorry but I'm not worried about Jody (that is a girl's name btw) Shelley taking cheapshots on our players. I'm worried about the Matt Cooke's of the league who Clifford can very much handle.

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01-28-2011, 12:31 PM
  #44
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..and whats the point of having another guy who scores just 5 goals a year? A potential OTL or WIN in 5 games in which we have lost by 1 goal.. another 5 to 10 points a year.. which will sure as hell be valuable at the end of the regular season when were fighting for the playoffs in the wild wild west.
How many game winning goals do fourth line "5 goal a year pluggers" have this year in the new NHL?

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01-28-2011, 12:38 PM
  #45
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Well no one addressed the issue of having skill players fight their own battles when necessary. Any comments on that idea? Or, do we all believe that fighting / running / chipping on a skill player is no longer an issue in the modern game?

With regards to refusal's to scrap: it's more like, "opposing tough guy / enforcer starts to run Brown, Doughty, etc. Westgarth is put on the ice. Runs slow down to manageable level. Offense starts up again." An actual fight is not always necessary. Clifford and Simmonds have won most of their scraps, but not all. One of the reasons they have done so is because opposing heavyweight's can't go after them. Again, you don't want skill in the box or injured.
That's why team love their enforcers - they take the injuries, the nicks, cuts, and damaged hands and wrists - that impede skill. I guess everyone here would prefer Brown fight his own battles, because, "he's supposed to be a POWER forward but he's a wuss". He's not soft. He's smart.

Our managers, coaches, and players all think Westgarth is necessary, that he helps them play better and with more confidence. Isn't their collective hockey knowledge and desire more important than trading or dropping Westgarth for another role player on the fourth line?
now your making a good argument

excellent point. It just seems that the golden day of NHL goons is over with.. but I will say.. I am scared ****less of Clifford having to drop against a pure heavyweight and getting creamed. That will teach Murray a lesson.

Both sides of this argument have real good opinions.. The only thing you cant argue.. is the teams record with and without Westgarth.. if it was just a game or 2.. or 3 or hell even 4 difference it would be alot easier to overlook.. but the team has a significantly better record when Westgarth is in the press box..

One way or another.. I just want this team to win damn it.

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Old
01-28-2011, 12:38 PM
  #46
Buddy The Elf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
With regards to refusal's to scrap: it's more like, "opposing tough guy / enforcer starts to run Brown, Doughty, etc. Westgarth is put on the ice. Runs slow down to manageable level. Offense starts up again." An actual fight is not always necessary. Clifford and Simmonds have won most of their scraps, but not all. One of the reasons they have done so is because opposing heavyweight's can't go after them. Again, you don't want skill in the box or injured.
That's why team love their enforcers - they take the injuries, the nicks, cuts, and damaged hands and wrists - that impede skill. I guess everyone here would prefer Brown fight his own battles, because, "he's supposed to be a POWER forward but he's a wuss". He's not soft. He's smart.
Please give me an example of Westgarth prevented ANYTHING this season. Somebody already mentioned that most of his scraps have been of the "staged" variety of the draw. I'm sorry but I'd rather have somebody else in there that can kill a penalty or block shots or even something as small has cycle the puck effectively.

He hasn't played in a number of games and either way, Brown won't be fighting his own battles. That is a total slippery slope argument. Quite frankly, I think Brown fighting his own battles would have a much bigger impact on the team/game than any of Westgarth's fights would.

If people are going to refute the standings with Westgarth in/out of the line up, then you can't just come back and make some arbitrary statement about players liking him there so he should be there. And btw, what would you expect the players/coaches to say? "Yeah Westgarth fights but he is useless. Most of us would much rather have another guy who can skate a regular shift than this bum playing 5 mins a night". I mean really.. lets use a little logic here.

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Old
01-28-2011, 12:40 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
How many game winning goals do fourth line "5 goal a year pluggers" have this year in the new NHL?
in a very close game the difference just might be when the 4th lines go at it.. A capable 4th line is a good card to have in your pocket.

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Old
01-28-2011, 12:41 PM
  #48
Duc620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
That is great and all but the players and coaches loved Derek Armstrong too. Should we bring him back? I mean really.

Ignoring the deal with the record with/without Westgarth, you have so many other facts staring you in the face that you are ignoring. Just look at JT's post. To ignore the other things that Ponikarovsky does is just silly. The guy was brought here to do other things besides score and he has played on the 3rd line for the most part which isn't exaclty and offensive role.

I'm sorry but I'm not worried about Jody (that is a girl's name btw) Shelley taking cheapshots on our players. I'm worried about the Matt Cooke's of the league who Clifford can very much handle.
Buddy, coupla' things:

We both know that this is a cats and dogs comparison. Armstrong was not loved for being an enforcer. So, no more straw cat or straw dog arguments. And you know I'm not arguing we have to keep every team BFF. This is an argument about philosophy: should the Kings have an enforcer? Should the Kings keep Westgarth as that enforcer?

I didn't discuss Poni... someone else made that comparison. I wouldn't compare Westgarth and Poni. Poni has much more skill and a terrible jab. Personally, I like the poni's. I just wish he could play a full season without getting injured a couple of times in the same 20 game stretch and going into that weird Russian funk during which nothing positive happens or ever can happen, and the empire collapses.

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Old
01-28-2011, 01:25 PM
  #49
Buddy The Elf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
Buddy, coupla' things:

We both know that this is a cats and dogs comparison. Armstrong was not loved for being an enforcer. So, no more straw cat or straw dog arguments. And you know I'm not arguing we have to keep every team BFF. This is an argument about philosophy: should the Kings have an enforcer? Should the Kings keep Westgarth as that enforcer?

I didn't discuss Poni... someone else made that comparison. I wouldn't compare Westgarth and Poni. Poni has much more skill and a terrible jab. Personally, I like the poni's. I just wish he could play a full season without getting injured a couple of times in the same 20 game stretch and going into that weird Russian funk during which nothing positive happens or ever can happen, and the empire collapses.
All I'm saying is just because the players say the like him there doesn't mean that yields them a positive result. In fact, we are debating a stat that essentially proves the opposite. Also, I'm curious what their candid opinions are in regards to having Clifford supplant that need. My guess is with Clifford and Simmonds in the line up, most of them probably feel sufficiently "protected".

I think at this point in the season, the Kings can't afford to dress somebody who can't skate a regular shift without being a liability and also can't contribute anything positive besides swinging fists. If that comes at the risk of a players getting injured (which I think is quite a stretch), then so be it. The Kings need the points and they appear to have a better chance at getting them without Westgarth.

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Old
01-28-2011, 01:27 PM
  #50
Johnny Utah
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I will still take Westy over Poni any day agaisnt tougher teams.

Whoever mentioned Poni is not scoring because he is on the 3rd line, that was a stupid comment. Frolov scored 32 goals and then 19 goals in that same role...Handzus scored 18 goals and then 22 goals, and Simmonds scored 16 last year...so that is complete BS.

Poni has 4 goals. On pace for what, 9? For 3.5 million?!

Westgarth got his face smashed, has one less assist and fought 7 guys for $525,000. I would say he has given us more bang for the buck.

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