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Messier overrated?

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01-28-2011, 12:45 PM
  #1
livewell68
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Messier overrated?

Is Messier overrated in terms of all-time greats?

Discuss.


My opinion is that he is a great player but no where the level that some people attribute to him.

Here are the few points that Messier fans use.

"He is the greatest leader in NHL history"

How many times did he lead his team to the playoffs after 1996?

"He is second all-time in scoring"

Would he be had he retired around 2000? When his elite days were over? He was basically just taking up salary space and demanding attention from New York but he did not play at the level that his salary or even his reputation demanded.

"He's the best all-around player NHL history"

Is he really? I can name Howe, Trottier, Mikkita, Beliveau, Clarke that were all more complete and all-around players than him.

"He dominated his peers"

Apart from 2 seasons he was never dominant and wasn't even a top 10 forward most seasons.

"He ended New York's drought"

The media in New York has forever overhyped this accomplishment and it was Leetch that was the most dominant in the playoff run and Messier got lots of help from Graves, Kovalev (who played his best playoff hockey that year), Leetch, Richter, Zubov. However Messier gets all the credit for it but was he as instrumental in that playoff as the media perceived him to be?

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01-28-2011, 12:50 PM
  #2
lovetherangers
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Overrated? No, I think he is rated where he should be, one of the best to ever play the game. You can make the case for Howe being better, but he is just as good, if not better than the rest. BTW how do you justify saying that Howe, Trots, Stan, Beliveau, and Clarke are better? How can anyone quantify that? It is all a matter of opinion when dealing with generational players, unless your name is Gretzky.

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01-28-2011, 12:53 PM
  #3
Ol' Jase
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Well, first of all, he is 2nd in all time scoring, so that point is moot.

As for one of the best leaders in NHL history, that's a subjective argument, but there certainly is a case.

As for one of the best all-around players in history? I don't see that argument very often. All of the players on your list other than Mikita (and some would argue that) would rank ahead of Messier on an all time "all-around" list, IMO.

He ranks somewhere between 11-20 all time.


Last edited by Ol' Jase: 01-28-2011 at 01:04 PM.
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01-28-2011, 12:55 PM
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King Woodballs
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second in career points
6 stanley cups
2 WITHOUT gretzky
tough to over rate that

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01-28-2011, 12:55 PM
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If anything, around this website, Mess is underrated. He's one of the all time greats, but a lot of people, the op included, don't seem to give him any credit at all.


Last edited by Chalupa Batman: 01-28-2011 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Flaming
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01-28-2011, 12:55 PM
  #6
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Me...adership_Award

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01-28-2011, 12:57 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Honestly, having watched hockey since the early 90s, I really would rather have Messier on my team than Jagr.

Maybe I'm biased as a Devils fan, whose team was terrifed by Messier - pretty much the only player who couldn't be slowed down by Jacques Lemaire's trap. Messier would just go through rather than try to go around whoever was trying to trap him.

In his prime, Messier suffered a bit from Forsberg/Lindros syndrome, in that his end of the season points totals were a bit lower than they could have been, because his physical style of play often had him missing 5-10 games. (Definitely more durable than either of them though). But he always brought it in the playoffs.

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01-28-2011, 12:58 PM
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pirate94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
second in career points
6 stanley cups
2 WITHOUT gretzky
tough to over rate that
not to mention the first and only player to captain 2 different teas that won the Stanley Cup.

Hard to overrate that.

I wonder when another player who will remain unmentioned by me will make their way into conversation in this thread.

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01-28-2011, 12:59 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Oh, and Messier was often referred to as "the best blend of intimidation and skill since Gordie Howe." He received massive amount of time killing penalties (among the highest since special teams stats were recorded). And he was usually the guy his coach chose to match up against the opposition's best center (including Mike Keenan in the 1987 Canada Cup when he had his choice of Canadian centers to match up against KLM).

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01-28-2011, 01:10 PM
  #10
pirate94
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It's hard to fault a single guy for his teams not making the playoffs. I look at the goalies Vancouver had in his years there and it was a mix of has-beens, never-was' and never-coulds'. and i liked some of their goalies.

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01-28-2011, 01:13 PM
  #11
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As long as he isn't considered a Top-15 player of all time, he isn't overrated. If he does... Well, he's overrated.

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01-28-2011, 01:24 PM
  #12
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Quote:
"He is the greatest leader in NHL history"
I can't conceive how he could be considered a better than Jean Beliveau. He's up there for consideration after Beliveau, but Messier above Beliveau just isn't serious.


Quote:
"He is second all-time in scoring"
Well, Messier is certainly not the 2nd best offensive player of all-time. In the last Top-100, somebody came up with a comparison between Henri Richard and Mark Messier (offence-wise)... They just aren't that far one from another as far as "good years" are concerned.

Quote:
"He's the best all-around player NHL history"
The guys you named were certainly better offensively, except MAYBE for Clarke, who was a MUCH better defensive player.

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01-28-2011, 01:37 PM
  #13
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Messier along with joe sakic had one of the worst '10 year starts' to thier careers among players in the hoh top 35. Messier was only elite from 87-92, other than that he padded his regular season stats, he was good from 95-97, but the remainder of his career is meaningless.

I also feel that some of his hart votes were completely unjust, no way was he the 2nd best player in 1996. Jagr and Lindros easily outpointed him, Fedorov was better defensively and offensively.

I used to rank him above Ted Lindsay and Bobby Clarke but have now decided to change my opinion and rank him below them, they were significantly better at age 20-30 than messier was.

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01-28-2011, 01:40 PM
  #14
seventieslord
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If you think Messier is a top-10 player thanks to his career totals... then you are overrating him. He belongs in the 20-30 range. Generally, the people in this section do not overrate him.

Dude's got a lot going for him:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=27918473&postcount=2

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01-28-2011, 01:43 PM
  #15
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If you have him rated higher than #35 of all time, yes he is overrated.

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01-28-2011, 02:12 PM
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Chairman Maouth
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Messier was a highly skilled ******-bag.

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01-28-2011, 03:17 PM
  #17
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He's not over-rated but IMO he isn't in the top 10 in terms of "greats", maybe in the 12-15 range.

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01-28-2011, 03:18 PM
  #18
livewell68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BewareoftheBear View Post
He's not over-rated but IMO he isn't in the top 10 in terms of "greats", maybe in the 12-15 range.
That is overrated then. He's top 20 but not top 12-15 range.

I would put him between 16-20.

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01-28-2011, 03:25 PM
  #19
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I've always thought that Messier along with Sakic were one of the most overrated players in the NHL history. Both mostly due to "intangibles".

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01-28-2011, 03:28 PM
  #20
livewell68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
I've always thought that Messier along with Sakic were one of the most overrated players in the NHL history. Both mostly due to "intangibles".
Although Sakic was better offensively than Messier and better defensively as well, especially later in his career.

In terms of intangibles though, people overrate them because they overrate the importance of these perceived intangibles that these two players had.

Messier was a good leader early in his career but in total of his 25 seasons he was mediocre and was rather a poor captain for a good 10 seasons.

Sakic was also top 10 or top 15 for longer than Messier was.

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01-28-2011, 03:40 PM
  #21
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I find Messier to be overrated, and a few of the posts in this thread already demonstrate why. He would almost certainly be outside my top 25 players ever.

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01-28-2011, 03:47 PM
  #22
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Yeah he's not the greatest leader of all time. Can't stand people giving him that title.

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01-28-2011, 03:49 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chairman Maouth View Post
Messier was a highly skilled ******-bag.
He definitely had a strong personality. Basically a better Kesler, but instead of being a whiny *****, he was a big, strong, force to be reckoned with.

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01-28-2011, 03:56 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Is Messier overrated in terms of all-time greats?

Discuss.


My opinion is that he is a great player but no where the level that some people attribute to him.

Here are the few points that Messier fans use.

"He is the greatest leader in NHL history"

How many times did he lead his team to the playoffs after 1996
Other than Lidstrom, how many players ever had seasons that rival their peak period after turning 35 years old?

Quote:
"He is second all-time in scoring"

Would he be had he retired around 2000? When his elite days were over? He was basically just taking up salary space and demanding attention from New York but he did not play at the level that his salary or even his reputation demanded.
A testament to a great peak and longevity. You don't end up that high in the all time leaders without both for the most part. In addiition, IMO he was still a solid NHL player right up until he retired. Nobody has the right to tell a player to leave the game if he can still play. If he couldn't play, nobody would have offered him an NHL contract.

Quote:
"He's the best all-around player NHL history"

Is he really? I can name Howe, Trottier, Mikkita, Beliveau, Clarke that were all more complete and all-around players than him.
Amongst guys I saw, he is behind Trots and Clarke with regard to completeness. While he became a good defensive forward later in his career, he was not a good defensive center in the Edmonton years. He was a great scorer and a physical menace, but only later did his defense improve. Sort of like Stevens in that regard.

Quote:
"He dominated his peers"

Apart from 2 seasons he was never dominant and wasn't even a top 10 forward most seasons.
Not too many players have multiple Harts. Give credit where credit is do. He was a great center who's career coincided with the two most dominate centers of all-time. Even Beliveau and Mikita would have had trouble getting all-star noms and MVPs in that era.

Quote:
"He ended New York's drought"

The media in New York has forever overhyped this accomplishment and it was Leetch that was the most dominant in the playoff run and Messier got lots of help from Graves, Kovalev (who played his best playoff hockey that year), Leetch, Richter, Zubov. However Messier gets all the credit for it but was he as instrumental in that playoff as the media perceived him to be?
Obviuosly it takes a team to win a cup, but he was one of the three most valuable players in that run. Again, give credit where credit is do. Without anyone of Leetch, Richter or Mess, that team doesn't get past NJ.


Conclusion:

Great peak, great career numbers, physical menace, clutch, leader, key contributor on 6 cups, highly skilled. IMO he's a top 25 player of all-time.

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01-28-2011, 04:00 PM
  #25
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I would say he is. He's definitely too high on the All-time list these history boards put together.

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