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Old
01-28-2011, 01:39 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I will still take Westy over Poni any day agaisnt tougher teams.

Whoever mentioned Poni is not scoring because he is on the 3rd line, that was a stupid comment. Frolov scored 32 goals and then 19 goals in that same role...Handzus scored 18 goals and then 22 goals, and Simmonds scored 16 last year...so that is complete BS.

Poni has 4 goals. On pace for what, 9? For 3.5 million?!

Westgarth got his face smashed, has one less assist and fought 7 guys for $525,000. I would say he has given us more bang for the buck.
Well thanks, I'm stupid! Btw.. I've already mentioned that I wouldn't mind dressing Westgarth against teams like the Ducks or other more physical teams/rivals.

Ponikarovsky has played in 30 games this year. that is good for a pace of a whopping 8 goals less than Frolov last year. And Handzus is on pace for a whopping 11 goals this season. That may be partly a product of Frolov leaving but also because of Handzus' decline. Simmonds is also on pace for <15. Production on the entire line is down. But beyond that, what does Frolov have to do with Ponikarovsky? Who cares how many goals he scores. If he gives the Kings the best chance to win, he should be in the line up.

My argument is solely about Westgarth. If it is Ponikarovsky that supplants him in the line up, great. I'd even take Peter Harrold at forward before him. They need to win games, not intimidate (if that is even going on).

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01-28-2011, 01:46 PM
  #52
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For me in general, the "we win/lose with him in the lineup" argument is not always the best metric for personnel decisions - except for goalies or your two or three best players. Then it makes sense to me.

Too many times, minutes for Westgarth or his type, or a third or fourth line player, go up when top six players go down. Without your top six players your W / L goes bad. Is it the "fault" of the players getting more ice time?

I understand everyone's frustration watching Westgarth on the ice or with the puck (tho, I do see improvement). But I also see a benefit and you don't... fair enough.

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01-28-2011, 01:51 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
... I've already mentioned that I wouldn't mind dressing Westgarth against teams like the Ducks or other more physical teams/rivals....

My argument is solely about Westgarth. If it is Ponikarovsky that supplants him in the line up, great. I'd even take Peter Harrold at forward before him. They need to win games, not intimidate (if that is even going on).
Then we really agree. Because I don't see him needed in every game, either. In fact, I see him as a liability against some teams. I just don't see the need to toss him OFF the team, especially in exchange for another different kind of fourth line role player, and expect Clifford or Simmonds to cover his place.

Intimidation, on the other hand, has a place in this game, even today.

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01-28-2011, 02:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
Then we really agree. Because I don't see him needed in every game, either. In fact, I see him as a liability against some teams. I just don't see the need to toss him OFF the team, especially in exchange for another different kind of fourth line role player, and expect Clifford or Simmonds to cover his place.

Intimidation, on the other hand, has a place in this game, even today.
Thank you.

I've been in fights in real life and playing hockey. When I walk into a bar with 4 friends and another group of 5 start talking smack or trying to be intimidating, I am more likely to do something when one of my friends is 6'4" 230 lbs. Other wise, I may just back down. It is the same thing playing soccer, hockey or any other sport I've played. Having that one big dude who has your back makes you play bigger and tougher. For christs sake, Brad Richardson had a fighting major this year against Scott Nichol. Westgarth not only played in that game, he was on the ice.

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01-28-2011, 02:33 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post

Intimidation, on the other hand, has a place in this game, even today.
Yeah and I'd wager to be that most teams' players that face the Kings are more concerned with Clifford than they are Westgarth. For one, he looks crazy as hell and has done well in a lot of his fights. Secondly, Westgarth isn't going get into a fight with 98% of the players in the league.

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01-28-2011, 03:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I just don't think we have enough offensive talent to sacrifice someone for the sake of Westgarth sitting at the end of the bench to potentially challenge someone to most likely a staged fight for a couple reasons. First, how many "heat of the play" fights has Westgarth been in? Of his 7 fights this year, 4 were staged off of the face-off, 2 were in scrums after the play, and 1 was a heat of the moment fight against Scott where Westgarth got destroyed. It'd be one thing if Westy was getting into fights because he was involved in the play, throwing his weight around, irritating our opponents, etc. It's different, at least to me, when it's just a staged square off involving a guy on his 4th shift of the entire game. It'd be different if we were dressing a fighter that contributed something offensively but Westy right now isn't that guy. Second, I don't think we have a forward outside of Kopitar that's shown they even deserve a double shift and I don't think Kopi has shown he has the necessary endurance and tenacity for that opportunity at this time. Again, I feel we're better off rolling a fourth line with 3 capable players intended to put pressure on the opposition, which adds up over time so a Kopitar, Brown, Williams, Stoll, etc. can take advantage when it matters.

I get, in certain games, having Westy dressed for that potential but the 36 games he's dressed so far don't qualify for all of those.
Yeah I think they have overused him a bit but that doesn't mean he belongs back in Manchester either. Being a heavyweight is a weird gig, you don't find a lot of willing dance partners. This whole argument speaks to the broader issue of the importance of an enforcer in today's game, I don't have an answer for that.

That said, when Westgarth hasn't dressed, it's not like the fourth line has been terribly productive. When Clifford was there, it was an energetic bunch, same with Lewis but now those guys have moved up in the lineup. Poni and Zus without a speedy player to recover pucks and increase tempo seems like an iffy combination. I do think there is more continuity without Westgarth in the lineup and of course a lot hinges on how Sturm ultimately integrates into the team and if Loktionov stays up. If Sturm gives them another solid, two-way player and Loktionov stays up, maybe it's time to get faster and let Clifford/Simmonds handle the scrapping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Politely, I disagree. Sure you can roll four lines, but only three will be effective.

AS for MORE LINE COMBO's, havent we seen enough of that stuff already.
Maybe I was unclear, what I was saying is that if the game is tight in score and/or fast in pace, you slide a forward from your top nine into Westy's spot, just the way you would if you had only dressed 11 forwards. I don't have any issues mixing and matching lines, look at what Tampa Bay did in their cup year or what the Flyers have done at times under Laviolette. Fresh looks and chances to develop chemistry. On this type of basis, it's much less risky that juggling the whole lineup for sixty minutes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
I just want to remind you of Detroits 4th line with Draper.
These guys were always on the ice with the opponents top line, complete shut 'em down and Draper scored 30 goals.
This is what a 4th line should look like. A powerfull tool to take the opponent top line out of the game.
Now i think about Westgarth and how he fits in that picture......


If anyone asks me i want a Clifford - Lewis - Simmonds 4th line.
Murray gives the third line lots of duties, I like what you posted as a third line with Zus taking over center duties where the matchup dictates it.

Talking about that Detroit fourth line as a model is like talking about Lemieux, Francis and Jagr when pondering who the Kings' top-line left wing should be.

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01-28-2011, 06:44 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
For me in general, the "we win/lose with him in the lineup" argument is not always the best metric for personnel decisions - except for goalies or your two or three best players. Then it makes sense to me.

Too many times, minutes for Westgarth or his type, or a third or fourth line player, go up when top six players go down. Without your top six players your W / L goes bad. Is it the "fault" of the players getting more ice time?

I understand everyone's frustration watching Westgarth on the ice or with the puck (tho, I do see improvement). But I also see a benefit and you don't... fair enough.
Unfortunately in a time like this where we are scratching and clawing for points you have to stick with whatever formula that is producing wins.. If its the fact that we are 11-3 without Westgarth then he has to sit. simple as that.

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01-28-2011, 07:19 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Thank you.

I've been in fights in real life and playing hockey. When I walk into a bar with 4 friends and another group of 5 start talking smack or trying to be intimidating, I am more likely to do something when one of my friends is 6'4" 230 lbs. Other wise, I may just back down. It is the same thing playing soccer, hockey or any other sport I've played. Having that one big dude who has your back makes you play bigger and tougher. For christs sake, Brad Richardson had a fighting major this year against Scott Nichol. Westgarth not only played in that game, he was on the ice.
You get in too many bar fights. I think you either need to smile more or start going to different bars.

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01-30-2011, 12:56 AM
  #59
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or stop drinking lol.

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01-30-2011, 02:29 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Thank you.

I've been in fights in real life and playing hockey. When I walk into a bar with 4 friends and another group of 5 start talking smack or trying to be intimidating, I am more likely to do something when one of my friends is 6'4" 230 lbs. Other wise, I may just back down. It is the same thing playing soccer, hockey or any other sport I've played. Having that one big dude who has your back makes you play bigger and tougher. For christs sake, Brad Richardson had a fighting major this year against Scott Nichol. Westgarth not only played in that game, he was on the ice.
Fighting is stupid...every time I have fought, I was stupid, both before and after, regardless of result. If I wasn't good at it, I wonder if I would have done it. Fighting in hockey is, for now, a necessary evil. It will however get phased out of the game if the NHL intends to progress forward. It will take more teams like the Red Wings winning Cups not dressing enforcers and then others will follow. I think in 10 years, fighting is out of the game and that will make me happy. It is the biggest reason IMHO that hockey has not caught onto the main stream. Your average Joe passive sports fan who watches football games, attends baseball games and roots for the local basketball team still thinks hockey is a neanderthal of a sport. I know because I hear it from average Joe and Jane regularly. One of their first spoken breaths about the sport concerns fighting. It gives validation to criticism that hockey is a niche sport. Imagine if football had as much fighting as hockey...the sport would stop appealing to the masses. Imagine basketball with pushing and shoving after the whistle and small scrums. The sport would be ridiculed.

As for Westgarth, I am happy if he never plays another game. He is slow, has no offensive or defensive ability and is not just a liability but the weak link each time he is out there. He single handedly makes the 4th line useless. I know, it's harsh but I care about winning and nothing else.

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01-30-2011, 03:09 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Fighting is stupid...every time I have fought, I was stupid, both before and after, regardless of result. If I wasn't good at it, I wonder if I would have done it. Fighting in hockey is, for now, a necessary evil. It will however get phased out of the game if the NHL intends to progress forward. It will take more teams like the Red Wings winning Cups not dressing enforcers and then others will follow. I think in 10 years, fighting is out of the game and that will make me happy. It is the biggest reason IMHO that hockey has not caught onto the main stream. Your average Joe passive sports fan who watches football games, attends baseball games and roots for the local basketball team still thinks hockey is a neanderthal of a sport. I know because I hear it from average Joe and Jane regularly. One of their first spoken breaths about the sport concerns fighting. It gives validation to criticism that hockey is a niche sport. Imagine if football had as much fighting as hockey...the sport would stop appealing to the masses. Imagine basketball with pushing and shoving after the whistle and small scrums. The sport would be ridiculed.

As for Westgarth, I am happy if he never plays another game. He is slow, has no offensive or defensive ability and is not just a liability but the weak link each time he is out there. He single handedly makes the 4th line useless. I know, it's harsh but I care about winning and nothing else.


p.s. ur a hater!

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01-31-2011, 12:50 AM
  #62
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Some of you people are so ignorant it makes me sick. I am so glad this is a message board and you people are invisible to me in real life.

I guarantee you that fighting will always have a place in this game. Hockey purists agree. Even Jeremy Roenick was talking about it the other day and validating it's place in the game.

I will be you $100 it will still be revelant in the next 10 years. The NHL hates to admit it, as badly as it is a thorn in it's side, it is also what helps draw fans and the only thing that makes them all stand up besides a goal. If you google "hockey scoring" or "hockey checking," are there websites dedicated to those topics? No. Are there websites dedicated to hockey fights? Tons. Do people trade tapes of goals, saves, etc...not really....They do for fighting. It has a cult following. It's role may be diminshed but it will never disapear. Even David Branch and all his new rules in OHL can't completely eliminate it, just curb it a little.

If players can't use there fists, they will use the next best and closest thing, their sticks. And it will be out of frustration on guys like Cooke, Carcillo, and Clutterbuck. The league knows this. This is the only sport the players carry around weapons 5 on 5. In football it's just the players, in baseball only one player is carrying a bat at a time. Eliminating fighting is the biggest mistake unless you want 100 more Brashear/McSorley incidents.


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01-31-2011, 01:05 AM
  #63
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CBC/NHLPA Players Poll:

Should fighting be banished from the NHL?
No: 98%
Yes: 2%

(I believe this was conducted amongst this years all stars)

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/alls...ed-in-the-nhl/

I think most fans enjoy fighting, and I think it adds a dimension to our sport that others lack. That said, I think the staged fighting is pointless, and I think those will eventually cease to exist. On the other hand, spontaneous, naturally occurring fights, that are sparked by in-the-moment passion, like what we saw between Datsyuk and Perry, are meaningful, and will have there place in the game for a long, long time.

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01-31-2011, 01:07 AM
  #64
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Ha exactly. All the GM's still want it and 98% of the players do...so all you dudes who post on the message board...well your opinion doesn't mean ****, because most everyone working or playing in the game disagree's with you. It's like giving your two cents on who should win at the SAG awards, no one cares about your opinion unless your in the business. You're not in this business and those in it disagree with you...so stop your whining behind the orange curtain and the windy city...Go be a Hawks or Ducks fan...oh wait, what are you gonna do about Parros and Scott...?

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01-31-2011, 01:23 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Fighting is stupid...every time I have fought, I was stupid, both before and after, regardless of result. If I wasn't good at it, I wonder if I would have done it. Fighting in hockey is, for now, a necessary evil. It will however get phased out of the game if the NHL intends to progress forward. It will take more teams like the Red Wings winning Cups not dressing enforcers and then others will follow. I think in 10 years, fighting is out of the game and that will make me happy. It is the biggest reason IMHO that hockey has not caught onto the main stream. Your average Joe passive sports fan who watches football games, attends baseball games and roots for the local basketball team still thinks hockey is a neanderthal of a sport. I know because I hear it from average Joe and Jane regularly. One of their first spoken breaths about the sport concerns fighting. It gives validation to criticism that hockey is a niche sport. Imagine if football had as much fighting as hockey...the sport would stop appealing to the masses. Imagine basketball with pushing and shoving after the whistle and small scrums. The sport would be ridiculed.
The reason hockey isn't main stream is because people in America don't grow up playing it.

Climate is the single most in important factor in determining this sports popularity.

Hockey is popular in Canada, Russia, Sweden, Finland ect. These places, have, on average, much colder climates than the United States.

Fighting has very little, if anything to do with it. Everytime I've taken a hockey virgin to a game, they've loved the fights.


Quote:
As for Westgarth, I am happy if he never plays another game. He is slow, has no offensive or defensive ability and is not just a liability but the weak link each time he is out there. He single handedly makes the 4th line useless. I know, it's harsh but I care about winning and nothing else.
Agreed.

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01-31-2011, 01:28 AM
  #66
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I don't mind fighting in hockey at all, I just mind Westgarth cause he flat out sucks.

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01-31-2011, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Some of you people are so ignorant it makes me sick. I am so glad this is a message board and you people are invisible to me in real life.

I guarantee you that fighting will always have a place in this game. Hockey purists agree. Even Jeremy Roenick was talking about it the other day and validating it's place in the game.

I will be you $100 it will still be revelant in the next 10 years. The NHL hates to admit it, as badly as it is a thorn in it's side, it is also what helps draw fans and the only thing that makes them all stand up besides a goal. If you google "hockey scoring" or "hockey checking," are there websites dedicated to those topics? No. Are there websites dedicated to hockey fights? Tons. Do people trade tapes of goals, saves, etc...not really....They do for fighting. It has a cult following. It's role may be diminshed but it will never disapear. Even David Branch and all his new rules in OHL can't completely eliminate it, just curb it a little.

If players can't use there fists, they will use the next best and closest thing, their sticks. And it will be out of frustration on guys like Cooke, Carcillo, and Clutterbuck. The league knows this. This is the only sport the players carry around weapons 5 on 5. In football it's just the players, in baseball only one player is carrying a bat at a time. Eliminating fighting is the biggest mistake unless you want 100 more Brashear/McSorley incidents.
The only real way to ending incidents like these is to ban these players from professional leagues for life, with or without fighting.

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01-31-2011, 12:35 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Ha exactly. All the GM's still want it and 98% of the players do...so all you dudes who post on the message board...well your opinion doesn't mean ****, because most everyone working or playing in the game disagree's with you. It's like giving your two cents on who should win at the SAG awards, no one cares about your opinion unless your in the business. You're not in this business and those in it disagree with you...so stop your whining behind the orange curtain and the windy city...Go be a Hawks or Ducks fan...oh wait, what are you gonna do about Parros and Scott...?
Lol!

If you knew anything about the sport, you too would be in it too. Your opinion is just as lousy as anyone elses.


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01-31-2011, 12:52 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
You're not in this business and those in it disagree with you...so stop your whining behind the orange curtain and the windy city...Go be a Hawks or Ducks fan...oh wait, what are you gonna do about Parros and Scott...?
Uhh...skate around them?

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01-31-2011, 01:44 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Lol!

If you knew anything about the sport, you too would be in it too. Your opinion is just as lousy as anyone elses.
Well my opinion is also the opinion of 98% of the players and all of the GM's...so I agree with the majority.

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01-31-2011, 01:52 PM
  #71
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I am not a fan of completely banning fighting. I don't have a problem with a fight like the one Simmonds had with Stuart last year in Boston. But they should be a rare occurrence in the heat of the moment of a game, not scripted between 2 slugs with a UHL skill set.

Players like Westgarth and the staged fights are thankfully being phased out of the NHL as teams realize with more parity in a capped NHL and the new rules with an increase in skill and more penalties called you cannot get away with dressing these slugs as the Kings record this season clearly shows.

But even if the NHL did come out and ban fighting the league would be fine. There would certainly be a group who would stop watching, but who cares, if people are watching the NHL to see fights then they are not true fans, if people would rather watch the team have a goon fight every game and lose than field a competent team I'm sure as Zad said there are more casual fans who will fill their void when it comes to spending.

Olympic hockey, college hockey and European hockey all thrive without fighting and goons and even the NHL when the games really matter the fighting goes down.

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01-31-2011, 01:57 PM
  #72
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No ones cares about European hockey and who watches college hockey...Boring.

Fighting will never leave the NHL...they may cut it down, but it will never disapear in our lifetime whether you like it or not. It's in Canada's blood.

You guys want to watch figure skating, then change the channel. This is hockey, it's a tough sport.

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01-31-2011, 01:57 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Well my opinion is also the opinion of 98% of the players and all of the GM's...so I agree with the majority.
Didn't 66% of them say they were against removing the instigator rule? Where do you stand on that?

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01-31-2011, 02:04 PM
  #74
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Johnny,

I know about 4 other people have asked you and you haven't answered so this is probably a reach.

But if the Kings players play so much better with Westgarth in the lineup like you claim, how do you explain the drastically better record with him in the pressbox?

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01-31-2011, 02:06 PM
  #75
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Personally, I agree with the other 34% because I think without the instigator the players would be able to police themselves and the Cooke's of the world wouldn't be able to run around. You would also have less staged fights, BUT you might have more fights in general because if your star player gets leveled, someone could come to the aid and get the same 5 as the dude who hit him and decided to fight.

I see why the league wants the instigator though, to curb fighting and stop it from becoming like it was in the 80's and 90's.

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