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Toronto to make a big move (or moves?)

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Old
01-28-2011, 02:10 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
With all do respect to Leafs fans, there is NO ONE on your current roster worth Subban and Pacioretty together, in fact, not even Kessel will get you those two players.

Pacioretty = Future power forward capable of scoring 40 goals if he works hard and plays his game.
Subban = Future offensive defenseman and Niedermeyer type player who can score 30 goals like Mike Green and be a PP quarterback.

Montreal will be built around Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Leblanc and Tinordi in the future!
You need some perspective, or something. Your expectations of these two are WAY too high.

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01-28-2011, 02:14 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I feel so bad for Leafs fans, so bad...

Kessel = Overpaid and not consistent
Kadri = Most likely a first round bust
Versteeg = Marginal 2nd/3rd line player on a Stanley Cup team
Bozak = Over hyped NCAA player and not drafted for a reason a la Brunnstrom
Komisarek = Slow, one dimensional and off ice problems in Montreal and now Toronto
Beauchemin = Overpaid and only played well with Niedermeyer in Anaheim
Gustavsson = Over hyped goalie and might never be able to play like a solid number one in the NHL ever

Aside from that, no 1st round draft pick in 2010 and 2011
Kessel - Overpaid? Even though he is currently outscoring Cammalleri, a player 5 years older and making more money?
Kadri - only one of two PPG rookies in the AHL. Little early to be calling him a bust. It's not as if you so called savior in Subban didn't spend time their.

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01-28-2011, 02:14 PM
  #303
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I dunno...if I were the Leafs I'd probably wait until the draft and July 1st to make some big moves. You could ditch some of that salary on the back-end (which is badly under-performing compared to the salary level), and hope for guys like Richards and Bryzgalov to hit free agency. Then maybe make a trade involving some younger pieces and picks for another solid top-line forward and you should be good to go. From where I'm standing the Leafs have too many of the 'same' player on the blue-line all making quite a bit of coin; need to diversify that a bit and lower cost plus allocate some more cash to the front-end.

I think guys like Kessel should be able to turn it around with a better supporting cast. The other team I'd be looking at is San Jose; if they continue to under-perform and miss the playoffs or get knocked out in the first round they could be looking at a major shake-up as well.

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01-28-2011, 02:20 PM
  #304
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So much fail in this thread. Mostly Leaf fans, but there is some others.

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01-28-2011, 02:29 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
With all do respect to Leafs fans, there is NO ONE on your current roster worth Subban and Pacioretty together, in fact, not even Kessel will get you those two players.

Pacioretty = Future power forward capable of scoring 40 goals if he works hard and plays his game.
Subban = Future offensive defenseman and Niedermeyer type player who can score 30 goals like Mike Green and be a PP quarterback.

Montreal will be built around Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Leblanc and Tinordi in the future!
Pacioretty is 6'1, 203 pounds that has never scored 25 goals at any level, AHL, NHL, college and USHL. To consider him a power forward is a stretch and to say he's capable of scoring 40 at The NHL level is almost laughable.

Might want to scale back the expectations on this guy... a guy drafted in 2007, the worst draft since 1999.

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01-28-2011, 02:31 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
Was listening to him talk and he said that he belives that Burke and company have some big moves in store he said that Brian Burke will do WHATEVER it takes to make the Leafs a playoff team/contender next year. He said we are in the Market for a top line C as top line LW and a legit #1 goalie according to Dreger we have the assets to get this done.


so Leaf fans if we are to take Dreger at his word and he is one of most connected guys in the business do you expect Kadri and/or our 2012 1st to be on the block? I think it's a damn good possibilty.
Burke has been trying to make the Leafs a playoff team for 2 years and they have only gotten worse. I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to make a play for somebody like Richards but I doubt Dallas would move him unless they got a crazy offer.

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01-28-2011, 02:35 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
I'm sorry but I have to ask how long you have been watching hockey? because there is absolutely NO comparsion betwen JFJ and Brian Burke.

Maybe Burkie has overpaid to land guys like Kessel but they are still good players JFJ traded for bad players but gave up GREAT value for those guys (Rask for Raycroft,1st 2nd 4th for bell and Toskala NOT giving up tlusty and the #13 pick for the #2 pick when he had the chance etc) JFJ was 1000X worse then Burke
How can JFJ be worse than Burke, the team's record has gotten worse after Burke took over, and he traded away his 1st rounders in the years where his team was near the bottom...that's the definition of poor management.

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01-28-2011, 02:38 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
Pacioretty is 6'1, 203 pounds that has never scored 25 goals at any level, AHL, NHL, college and USHL. To consider him a power forward is a stretch and to say he's capable of scoring 40 at The NHL level is almost laughable.

Might want to scale back the expectations on this guy... a guy drafted in 2007, the worst draft since 1999.
I think he's up to 6'2" and around 210lbs...not a big difference but filled out a bit.

He definitely exagerated at 40 goals. I think he can top out at 30 and provide a physical and net driving presence. I think his prime years will average about 23-25 goals 35-40 assists if he gets 1st line linemates. Smaller but faster version of Malone.

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01-28-2011, 02:40 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
Pacioretty is 6'1, 203 pounds that has never scored 25 goals at any level, AHL, NHL, college and USHL. To consider him a power forward is a stretch and to say he's capable of scoring 40 at The NHL level is almost laughable.

Might want to scale back the expectations on this guy... a guy drafted in 2007, the worst draft since 1999.
About the only thing I agreed with was that the Habs probably wouldn't trade both guys for Kessel However, that's more due to already having smaller guys like Gionta, Cammy, Plekanec, etc. Subban and Pax both fill a pretty serious need on the Habs now and in the future if they ever pan out.

The expectations of those players though are a little extreme. Probably better off hoping Pax turns into a 20-25 goal scorer in the NHL, anything above that is a massive bonus. Can't see the guy ever being top 5 or 6 in the league in goal scoring though lol

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01-28-2011, 02:41 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I feel so bad for Leafs fans, so bad...

Kessel = Overpaid and not consistent
Kadri = Most likely a first round bust
Versteeg = Marginal 2nd/3rd line player on a Stanley Cup team
Bozak = Over hyped NCAA player and not drafted for a reason a la Brunnstrom
Komisarek = Slow, one dimensional and off ice problems in Montreal and now Toronto
Beauchemin = Overpaid and only played well with Niedermeyer in Anaheim
Gustavsson = Over hyped goalie and might never be able to play like a solid number one in the NHL ever

Aside from that, no 1st round draft pick in 2010 and 2011
Kadri is likely a bust, and Max Pac is a future 40 goal scorer? haha

Try to be a little objective man.

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01-28-2011, 02:41 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think he's up to 6'2" and around 210lbs...not a big difference but filled out a bit.

He definitely exagerated at 40 goals. I think he can top out at 30 and provide a physical and net driving presence. I think his prime years will average about 23-25 goals 35-40 assists if he gets 1st line linemates. Smaller but faster version of Malone.
Probably fair expectations for his prime years. Hopefully he can keep developing for you guys because that added size in your top 6 would go a long way IMO.

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01-28-2011, 02:44 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think he's up to 6'2" and around 210lbs...not a big difference but filled out a bit.

He definitely exagerated at 40 goals. I think he can top out at 30 and provide a physical and net driving presence. I think his prime years will average about 23-25 goals 35-40 assists if he gets 1st line linemates. Smaller but faster version of Malone.
I have watched quite a bit of the Candiens this season and I don't know if you have watched much of the Bruins but I see the same potential and skillset as Wheeler where both fanbases will see potential for more, and they will put up similar numbers to what you posted.

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01-28-2011, 02:45 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
With all do respect to Leafs fans, there is NO ONE on your current roster worth Subban and Pacioretty together, in fact, not even Kessel will get you those two players.

Pacioretty = Future power forward capable of scoring 40 goals if he works hard and plays his game.
Subban = Future offensive defenseman and Niedermeyer type player who can score 30 goals like Mike Green and be a PP quarterback.

Montreal will be built around Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Leblanc and Tinordi in the future!
I like the upside of both players but you are overrating them a bit.

Pacioretty is a safe bet for 20 playing top 6 in his prime, possibly 30...40 is a huge stretch...definitely not something I'd expect.

Subban-Green is a good comparison, though PK should be at least average defensively if not better. He may never have the smarts of a Niedermayer/Markov/Lidstrom but he is more of a tools type player...big fast and skilled. I think he can be a top 5 guy offensively, defensively as long as he keeps the high risk plays to a minimum and picks his spots he should be ok. He has to show better judgment and hockey sense before I even mention him in the same breath as Niedermayer.

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01-28-2011, 02:50 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I like the upside of both players but you are overrating them a bit.

Pacioretty is a safe bet for 20 playing top 6 in his prime, possibly 30...40 is a huge stretch...definitely not something I'd expect.

Subban-Green is a good comparison, though PK should be at least average defensively if not better. He may never have the smarts of a Niedermayer/Markov/Lidstrom but he is more of a tools type player...big fast and skilled. I think he can be a top 5 guy offensively, defensively as long as he keeps the high risk plays to a minimum and picks his spots he should be ok. He has to show better judgment and hockey sense before I even mention him in the same breath as Niedermayer.
Subban reminds me a lot of Phaneuf's early career and potential. Same physical play and offensive abilities with various short-comings in the defensive zone that will come with time. As long as the pressure put on Dion isn't the same put on P.K. and they allow him to develop his overall game he will be a great defenceman.

Cheers

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01-28-2011, 02:51 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How can JFJ be worse than Burke, the team's record has gotten worse after Burke took over, and he traded away his 1st rounders in the years where his team was near the bottom...that's the definition of poor management.
Despite the fact the the assets he gave up are hardly quantifiable yet, he didn't give them up for aging players. JFJ did. Burke got a former top 5 pick who is one of 5 players under the age of 25 to score back to back 30 plus goal seasons (the others being Stamkos, Ovechkin, Crosby and Ryan. Not exactly light company). Burke got an enviable asset back. Thinking otherwise is...moronic.

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01-28-2011, 02:55 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I feel so bad for Leafs fans, so bad...

Kessel = Overpaid and not consistent
Kadri = Most likely a first round bust
Versteeg = Marginal 2nd/3rd line player on a Stanley Cup team
Bozak = Over hyped NCAA player and not drafted for a reason a la Brunnstrom
Komisarek = Slow, one dimensional and off ice problems in Montreal and now Toronto
Beauchemin = Overpaid and only played well with Niedermeyer in Anaheim
Gustavsson = Over hyped goalie and might never be able to play like a solid number one in the NHL ever

Aside from that, no 1st round draft pick in 2010 and 2011

Kessel = Overpaid and not consistent How old is he again? and who are his linemates. lets talk about scott gomezKadri = Most likely a first round bust. shouldnt have come up yet. last year in the O and this year shouldve stayed ahl. the game is considerably different at each level.
Versteeg = Marginal 2nd/3rd line player on a Stanley Cup team how many guys on montreal have more points than him with similar TOI as well play pp and pk and for similar contract?
Bozak = Over hyped NCAA player and not drafted for a reason a la Brunnstrom young and i think hes a 3rd line center maybe 2nd if he improves
Komisarek = Slow, one dimensional and off ice problems in Montreal and now Toronto never been the same since shoulder injury
Beauchemin = Overpaid and only played well with Niedermeyer in Anaheim he played second line for the duck niedermeyer played with pronger for the most part.Gustavsson = Over hyped goalie and might never be able to play like a solid number agree i just dont think hes a number one goalie he needs more composure and experience to have a shot

leafs fans seriously need to chill out. yea yea heard the 43 years as a fan how long can i wait. well youve waited this long. let them rebuild . they have young players who can grow. kessel needs at least 1 first line line mate to see if he can truly be a force. and even with out 1 he will still have 2 30 +goal seasons on the leafs team that "sux"

theres still rynnas reimer damigo aulie gunnerson blacker kadri and a few other names coming up in the system that need time. giggy should be coming off the books this year and its lookiing more so kaberle will too. they will have cap space to try something in the off season. relax let the young kids play and get experience. and with versteeg seriously ? who did they send chicagos way to upgrade some young depth? oh yea leafs former all star stalberg its funny seeing people compare burke to JFJ. burke has cleared out most of the crap he was given now he will have a decent amount of cap

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01-28-2011, 02:59 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by tankotopgun View Post
Kessel = Overpaid and not consistent How old is he again? and who are his linemates. lets talk about scott gomezKadri = Most likely a first round bust. shouldnt have come up yet. last year in the O and this year shouldve stayed ahl. the game is considerably different at each level.
Versteeg = Marginal 2nd/3rd line player on a Stanley Cup team how many guys on montreal have more points than him with similar TOI as well play pp and pk and for similar contract?
Bozak = Over hyped NCAA player and not drafted for a reason a la Brunnstrom young and i think hes a 3rd line center maybe 2nd if he improves
Komisarek = Slow, one dimensional and off ice problems in Montreal and now Toronto never been the same since shoulder injury
Beauchemin = Overpaid and only played well with Niedermeyer in Anaheim he played second line for the duck niedermeyer played with pronger for the most part.Gustavsson = Over hyped goalie and might never be able to play like a solid number agree i just dont think hes a number one goalie he needs more composure and experience to have a shot

leafs fans seriously need to chill out. yea yea heard the 43 years as a fan how long can i wait. well youve waited this long. let them rebuild . they have young players who can grow. kessel needs at least 1 first line line mate to see if he can truly be a force. and even with out 1 he will still have 2 30 +goal seasons on the leafs team that "sux"

theres still rynnas reimer damigo aulie gunnerson blacker kadri and a few other names coming up in the system that need time. giggy should be coming off the books this year and its lookiing more so kaberle will too. they will have cap space to try something in the off season. relax let the young kids play and get experience. and with versteeg seriously ? who did they send chicagos way to upgrade some young depth? oh yea leafs former all star stalberg its funny seeing people compare burke to JFJ. burke has cleared out most of the crap he was given now he will have a decent amount of cap
When you have to make that many excuses his post kinda speaks for itself

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01-28-2011, 03:01 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
Good God.

Any future this team has is doomed.

It sounds like Burke is going to mortgage the future to fill holes in the present, which is never a good idea when the team is as bad as it is.

It really is hell being a Leaf fan.
While it would hurt to see another pick go BYE BYE...I guess it would also depend on the return...we harp at Kessel for his play when really...I mean come one who does he have to play with....? He had Savard setting him up in Boston he has Bozak here...

that's like going from 100% Canadian beef to Taco Bell....COME ON!

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01-28-2011, 03:04 PM
  #319
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When you have to make that many excuses his post kinda speaks for itself
sorry we have to make excuses cant afford to sit in last for as long as the oilers with leafs fans. especially considering 2 years with no first rounder.

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01-28-2011, 03:06 PM
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Despite the fact the the assets he gave up are hardly quantifiable yet, he didn't give them up for aging players. JFJ did. Burke got a former top 5 pick who is one of 5 players under the age of 25 to score back to back 30 plus goal seasons (the others being Stamkos, Ovechkin, Crosby and Ryan. Not exactly light company). Burke got an enviable asset back. Thinking otherwise is...moronic.
Not saying that Kessel is not a nice asset to have...however, he could have gotten a similar player as a UFA and maybe paid a bit more in terms of cap hit but still had the 3 high draft picks.

What made it a bad deal is that at that time Toronto had little depth on the farm and as much as he tried to pass off the Bozak, Gustvsson and Hanson signings as "1st round calibre" they were far from that.

If a team knocking on the door to the cup(Vancouver or Phillie thius year) makes that type of deal it makes a lot more sense, but not a team entering a long rebuild.

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01-28-2011, 03:12 PM
  #321
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Not saying that Kessel is not a nice asset to have...however, he could have gotten a similar player as a UFA and maybe paid a bit more in terms of cap hit but still had the 3 high draft picks.

What made it a bad deal is that at that time Toronto had little depth on the farm and as much as he tried to pass off the Bozak, Gustvsson and Hanson signings as "1st round calibre" they were far from that.

If a team knocking on the door to the cup(Vancouver or Phillie thius year) makes that type of deal it makes a lot more sense, but not a team entering a long rebuild.
Your operating under the assumption that those firsts will turn into anything at all. Doing so is foolish. Burke paid up those picks for a sure thing. Should those picks equal a value greater than Kessel, that it was a bad deal, but should they not, he made an astute deal. Neither is known, and as such the deal cannot be called a bust or win.

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01-28-2011, 03:13 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Not saying that Kessel is not a nice asset to have...however, he could have gotten a similar player as a UFA and maybe paid a bit more in terms of cap hit but still had the 3 high draft picks.
What made it a bad deal is that at that time Toronto had little depth on the farm and as much as he tried to pass off the Bozak, Gustvsson and Hanson signings as "1st round calibre" they were far from that.

If a team knocking on the door to the cup(Vancouver or Phillie thius year) makes that type of deal it makes a lot more sense, but not a team entering a long rebuild.
There is a large difference between a 27y/o 36 goal scorer and a 21 y/o 36 goal scorer.

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01-28-2011, 03:15 PM
  #323
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What would it take for Toronto to give Montreal Kadri + Schenn???
lol

We're never gonna get those 2 from Toronto, stop trying.

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01-28-2011, 03:17 PM
  #324
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Leafs deal!Probably

In the past Burke has made deals at the ASG break as well as trade deadline.Just seening Reimer being held with the Leafs,it looks as though either JS or Gustafsson are part of the deal.The things I hear is that 1 of the goalies with Versteeg,Mitchell,,Kaberle and maybe even Grabovski are being dealt.Detroit,Vancouver,Atlanta and LA are talking to the Buds

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01-28-2011, 03:20 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
Was listening to him talk and he said that he belives that Burke and company have some big moves in store he said that Brian Burke will do WHATEVER it takes to make the Leafs a playoff team/contender next year. He said we are in the Market for a top line C as top line LW and a legit #1 goalie according to Dreger we have the assets to get this done.


so Leaf fans if we are to take Dreger at his word and he is one of most connected guys in the business do you expect Kadri and/or our 2012 1st to be on the block? I think it's a damn good possibilty.
Now exactly where were you listening to him talk?

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