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NSH@CGY 1/24/2010 The "Bump, Bump, Bump" Edition

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Old
01-28-2011, 09:56 AM
  #151
glenngineer
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3rdMan, well said. You know I've never been a fan of Trotz but there is no reason to fire him at this point. So we've lost 2 games in a row. We've also won 10 out of 14. Not shabby by any means. The team is playing hard. Everyone is accepting their roles. I think we're doing just fine. Now if we drop in the standings with all these home games coming up, then I'll start to question a little bit, but right now, you were spot on. Thanks for a well thought out post.

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01-28-2011, 10:46 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
So you're saying that the local media should become more hockey literate in order to crank up heat on a coaching staff and GM rather than to simply report on the game itself? The Tennessean isn't hockey illiterate. They are hockey apathetic. We have a beat writer who does a fine job. It's the editorial staff who decides on negative sounding headlines, and journalists who don't follow the team who write negative business stories. To act as is the rag has never written a story questioning whether or not Trotz should be fired is inaccurate. The bottom line is this town as a sports market doesn't seem to jump at the first negative story. We're a bit more patient than that.

In my opinion you should be more concerned with our hockey neophyte ownership group than you should be with the media, but even that is becoming more and more of a veteran hockey group. Personally I think it's a good thing that they let Poile run hockey operations, but that also means less of a chance he gets canned which means less of a chance Trotz gets canned (without good reason that is). If you want Poile and/or Trotz out then I'm not going to change your mind. I just don't see why it comes up after a couple of losses rather than in the middle of a winning streak. The negativity around this place after a loss is expected, but to what extent? I'm of the opinion that a coach shouldn't be fired until it's obvious the team no longer listens to or trusts him. Not to appease a fan base, especially not a minority group within that fan base. I see no evidence to support the idea that Trotz has lost the team, and Poile looks to be right back on the same track he was on before the fire sale (not to mention a Forsberg trade Craig pushed for) dismantled his roster. Now there is a good chance I could be wrong about those two things since I'm not a hockey expert, but 10-4-0 in 14 games which included a back-to-back with a tough Chicago team and a western Canada road swing is pretty good by anyone's standards. Mix in the injury factor and it's even better. Look at our roster compared to others in the league, and tell me you see a contender for the division. I don't, but here we are. Breathing down Detroit's neck at the break. We also just skated nose to nose with the best team in the West. Disappointing as it might have been, we faced a hot team with tons of skill at every position and damn near outworked them. After a cooling down period I found myself proud of them.

Love 'em or hate 'em, if you can't give credit where credit is due RIGHT NOW, when it actually matters, then there's really no sense in this discussion. First round losses suck, but you have to get there first. As has been said by too many people before me to count, once you're in anything can happen.

(we still need a damn PP though)
I was referring to the reference about Toronto. I don't care about the media. I think your just reading what you want to read in my post. The coach isn't going to get fired. At this point you can't fire the coach do I like him. He is what he is a defensive coach and the defensive is good. I think they should have fired one of the asst coaches to bring in someone who can interject some life into the pp. Your reference to us and the other teams well look at Phoenix they doing the same thing and doing just about what we are doing. They lost more players before the season began than we did and they are still competing and they are about to loose their franchise. Poile is a great GM he is not the problem at all. More or less the finances are the problem because we can't add that special extra. Everyone keeps referring to the Forsberg trade which didn't pan out because Forsberg was at the end and he didn't help us win that series against the Sharks. But if they could add someone to the mix not a second level deal but I doubt it we'll see

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01-28-2011, 03:42 PM
  #153
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I don't think it's that I'm reading what I want to read in your posts. It's that I don't always see a clear reason. It could be my fault, but regardless of cause it might explain why it seems I cherry pick or "put text in your posts" so to speak. Also my reference to Toronto wasn't necessarily to draw a parallel to the media coverage of both teams. It was more or less to illustrate that often times teams who have knee-jerk reactions to rough patches don't fare so well. We aren't even in a rough patch. That's why I'm confused about where this is all coming from. It seems strikingly similar to the various Legwand debates that sprout up here. Not similar in context but in timing. If Legwand goes through a scoring drought you can bet all of the money in your pockets that there will be a thread or two derailed into a Legwand debate (I'm guilty in participating). The same goes for Trotz after a couple of losses. I would be more understanding if we were in the middle of a six-game losing streak or we had gone 4-10 in our last fourteen, but that isn't even near the case.

The fact is Trotz, for all of his faults, knows how to coach the kind of team Poile can put together. That is to say, Trotz has the sort of philosophy and coaching style needed to get the absolute most out of what on paper amounts to a bunch of low-2nd/3rd liners and below. He does have an above-average defense anchored by an elite pairing, and Rinne is certainly top five in the league now (top three this season). But we won't be a Detroit or Pittsburgh for a long time, if ever. I am optimistic with the way attendance has gone this season. I'm a bit worried that maybe it has risen because of the relative sparsity of games, and that the back end of the schedule might soften interest. We'll see, but if things keep going this way we will see less of a need in revenue sharing. If Trotz proves to be unable to coach a more offensively skilled team then his time will come. He did a decent job of it for two seasons, but with no play off success. When we are able to actually create a roster that anyone who knows a lick about hockey can look at and think "contender" year-in and year-out is when Barry Trotz absolutely HAS to prove himself in the play offs. Until then I think if he keeps the team competitive he is not only doing his job, but earning it.

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01-28-2011, 11:06 PM
  #154
roseyc
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I don't think it's that I'm reading what I want to read in your posts. It's that I don't always see a clear reason. It could be my fault, but regardless of cause it might explain why it seems I cherry pick or "put text in your posts" so to speak. Also my reference to Toronto wasn't necessarily to draw a parallel to the media coverage of both teams. It was more or less to illustrate that often times teams who have knee-jerk reactions to rough patches don't fare so well. We aren't even in a rough patch. That's why I'm confused about where this is all coming from. It seems strikingly similar to the various Legwand debates that sprout up here. Not similar in context but in timing. If Legwand goes through a scoring drought you can bet all of the money in your pockets that there will be a thread or two derailed into a Legwand debate (I'm guilty in participating). The same goes for Trotz after a couple of losses. I would be more understanding if we were in the middle of a six-game losing streak or we had gone 4-10 in our last fourteen, but that isn't even near the case.

The fact is Trotz, for all of his faults, knows how to coach the kind of team Poile can put together. That is to say, Trotz has the sort of philosophy and coaching style needed to get the absolute most out of what on paper amounts to a bunch of low-2nd/3rd liners and below. He does have an above-average defense anchored by an elite pairing, and Rinne is certainly top five in the league now (top three this season). But we won't be a Detroit or Pittsburgh for a long time, if ever. I am optimistic with the way attendance has gone this season. I'm a bit worried that maybe it has risen because of the relative sparsity of games, and that the back end of the schedule might soften interest. We'll see, but if things keep going this way we will see less of a need in revenue sharing. If Trotz proves to be unable to coach a more offensively skilled team then his time will come. He did a decent job of it for two seasons, but with no play off success. When we are able to actually create a roster that anyone who knows a lick about hockey can look at and think "contender" year-in and year-out is when Barry Trotz absolutely HAS to prove himself in the play offs. Until then I think if he keeps the team competitive he is not only doing his job, but earning it.
Time will prove one of us right and I am rooting for you to be right. I don't understand you say that we won't ever be a detroit or pittsburg in what way winning or finance wise? I think we can performance wise. We have to sign Weber and Suter and up the finances a little more I'm hoping the owners will understand this. No I don't think that we'll ever be the top spending team and you don't have to be if your system is producing. Letting Hamhuis walk was disappointing because he came from the system I wasn't particular impressed with him but we should have gotten more from him than just clearing cap space. I know we got sk out the whole process but that was just a gamble that is paying off still relatively speaking it's not a even up trade. On the Toronto thing.There are a number of teams especially in Canada where money is no object in the rabid cites where the fans put pressure on the team you scratch their heads and say why but they look at our team who has never won a playoff series they think they are better off. If Weber and Suter leave and we rebuild again do you think the attendance will be the same. Toronto draws a full house and they are bottom dwellers. I think we done the competitive thing long enough don't you.... it's time to take the next step. We'll see

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Old
01-29-2011, 03:29 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I'm of the opinion that a coach shouldn't be fired until it's obvious the team no longer listens to or trusts him. Not to appease a fan base, especially not a minority group within that fan base. I see no evidence to support the idea that Trotz has lost the team, and Poile looks to be right back on the same track he was on before the fire sale (not to mention a Forsberg trade Craig pushed for) dismantled his roster.
Very very much agree with this. And there have been a few times this month alone that players have said Trotz has come into the room during intermissions and "peeled some paint", and the players responded by going out and winning the game. To me, that really says that the staff has not lost the room and the players WANT to play for Trotz.

It's inevitable that at some point during an 82 game season, someone is going to question whether the coach should be fired. And not that any one really is here, and not to make this into that debate, but I'm just saying I think it's clear the team likes playing for Trotz.

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Old
01-29-2011, 10:14 AM
  #156
ThirdManIn
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
Time will prove one of us right and I am rooting for you to be right. I don't understand you say that we won't ever be a detroit or pittsburg in what way winning or finance wise? I think we can performance wise. We have to sign Weber and Suter and up the finances a little more I'm hoping the owners will understand this. No I don't think that we'll ever be the top spending team and you don't have to be if your system is producing. Letting Hamhuis walk was disappointing because he came from the system I wasn't particular impressed with him but we should have gotten more from him than just clearing cap space. I know we got sk out the whole process but that was just a gamble that is paying off still relatively speaking it's not a even up trade. On the Toronto thing.There are a number of teams especially in Canada where money is no object in the rabid cites where the fans put pressure on the team you scratch their heads and say why but they look at our team who has never won a playoff series they think they are better off. If Weber and Suter leave and we rebuild again do you think the attendance will be the same. Toronto draws a full house and they are bottom dwellers. I think we done the competitive thing long enough don't you.... it's time to take the next step. We'll see
Well, it seems this discussion is turning into a bit of a marathon. I'm ok with that as long as it continues to be civil, so let me try to respond to some of your points here.

The comparison to Detroit and Pittsburgh (I probably should've left Pittsburgh out) was basically me saying we aren't perpetual contenders yet, and we might not ever be. It isn't necessarily pessimism. It's just me covering my ass because I know nothing is ever guaranteed, especially in the world of professional sports. The guys running the show are working towards that though.

Re-signing Suter and Weber shouldn't be a dream killer. I think it should be looked at as the first real step towards building a contender. Time will tell what the long-term financial status of this team will be, but if things continue to improve we could be looking at selling out 20 games or more per season really soon. I don't expect as big of a jump in attendance figures from this year to next as we have been seeing from last year to now, but if we can keep this up and average somewhere between 15-16k this season it's a huge step. Letting Hamhuis walk was a tough decision I'm sure, but Poile decided to keep him on for the play offs instead of potentially scuttling the team's play off chances by dealing him at the deadline. It's easy to play hindsight GM and look back at the season thinking "Well, we lost Hamhuis to free agency and lost in the first round. Should've just traded him" (not implying that's what anyone is thinking), but at the time keeping him was the best move for the team.

There may in fact be fans of other teams, Canadian or not, who think being a fan of a non-competitive team is better than being a Predators fan, but I honestly couldn't care less. Anyone who has that opinion and justifies it by saying "they haven't won a play off series" is an idiot and will change their arbitrary rationale to something else the minute we go to the second round. As the forum jargon goes, haters gonna hate. As for the hypothetical where Suter and Weber both leave, I don't see it happening. If it did I'd imagine the team would lose more games, which would probably have a negative effect on attendance. Still I don't see it happening.

Finally, I don't think you can ever do the competitive thing long enough. I understand you meant competitive and not play off winners, but as I said earlier. I'd rather be competitive than not. I'd rather be successful than not, too. One of these days my patience may run out, but I still see light at the end of a tunnel most of us thought would have collapsed by now. Maybe I'm still blinded by the second chance the team was given, but I genuinely think we are on the right track for the first time in our existence.

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