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Messier overrated?

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01-28-2011, 06:29 PM
  #26
RabbinsDuck
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A top 40 player - but I have trouble getting him into the top 30.
His 2 Harts were 2 of the weakest, IMO.

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01-28-2011, 06:47 PM
  #27
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Messier was one of the physically strongest players ever. In his prime he was in Hull and Trottier territory. Plus he was an agitator in the Howe tradition. He's a lesser version of the aforementioned guys but he certainly belongs in the same paragraph as them.

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01-28-2011, 07:01 PM
  #28
Dennis Bonvie
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I'd put him between 21 and 23.

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01-28-2011, 07:06 PM
  #29
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Nuck fans will say he is overrated Oiler and Rangers fans will say he is not

The fans of teams he beat might just get mad

IMO--Without Messier on the second line--oilers are not nearly as great as they were with just gretz in the line up

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01-28-2011, 07:14 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
Nuck fans will say he is overrated Oiler and Rangers fans will say he is not

The fans of teams he beat might just get mad

IMO--Without Messier on the second line--oilers are not nearly as great as they were with just gretz in the line up
Once Devils fans get over their hate for Messier, we all realize how great he was. My guess is that Calgary fans feel the same way...

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01-28-2011, 07:15 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bank Shot View Post
He definitely had a strong personality. Basically a better Kesler, but instead of being a whiny *****, he was a big, strong, force to be reckoned with.
As I said, Messier was a highly talented ******-bag. His hockey skills eventually diminished with age and he had to retire -- but he will always be a 24 carat ******-bag at the height of his game.

And you need to catch up on current events when it comes to Kesler.

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01-28-2011, 07:38 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
IMO--Without Messier on the second line--oilers are not nearly as great as they were with just gretz in the line up
Absolutely.

This said... We could say the same for Henri Richard. And it doesn't make Richard an all-time Top-15 player.

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01-28-2011, 07:52 PM
  #33
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If Henri Richard had close to the offensive impact of Mark Messier in the playoffs, and maybe if he was ever close to winning a Hart trophy or 3, then maybe we could talk about the two like they were comparable.

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01-28-2011, 08:03 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If Henri Richard had close to the offensive impact of Mark Messier in the playoffs, and maybe if he was ever close to winning a Hart trophy or 3, then maybe we could talk about the two like they were comparable.
Oh... Absolutely.

Basically, it's the difference between a guy in the Top-30 and another in the Top-60.

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01-28-2011, 08:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
"He ended New York's drought"

The media in New York has forever overhyped this accomplishment and it was Leetch that was the most dominant in the playoff run and Messier got lots of help from Graves, Kovalev (who played his best playoff hockey that year), Leetch, Richter, Zubov. However Messier gets all the credit for it but was he as instrumental in that playoff as the media perceived him to be?
Will leave the rankings and your overall mischaractering yet another all-time N. American great. (First Potvin, now Messier. Funny. Both would tear Jagr's head off in a nanosecond.)

This ^^^^, however, is fiction. I lived in NYC at the time and had season tickets at MSG, including the Cup year.

Produce in the #1 media market in the world and, indeed, you will get a lot of coverage.

However, "overhyped," unless you, as many others here do, is simply misusing the word, is flat out wrong. Messier was critical to that team. And in NYC, the contributions of many other Ranger players to that '94 team was duly noted, to this very day. Of course, you unfortunately go to the lazy, "leech" meme, whereby you point out that he got lots of help from talented teammates.

And that's bad? That DETRACTS in any way from the fact that NYR Cup run revolved around him joining them, fall, 1991?

As for Messier's leadership abilities, read what the player's own peers said about him throughout his career. Excuse me if I weight their opinions just a bit more.

***

It's funny. One had the privilege of experienced hockey history first-hand with the Isles in the early 80s and NYR in the mid-90s. Little did I know at the time that it would be re-written into fiction, right here, in subsequent decades.


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01-28-2011, 10:52 PM
  #36
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Messier is underrated because too many people only remember the last part of his career, and he was a first-class d-bag and possible sociopath and people are so in love with "classy" guys. And because people don't want to look beyond numbers and trophies. People joke about intangibles, but Jeremy Roenick on Off the Record today nicely summed up why Messier had so much impact on and off the ice that you can't see on the scoresheet. He said Messier was the most intimidating player he played against, he was terrified of him, and Roenick was no shrinking violet. Prime Messier brought so much damn swagger to a team.

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01-28-2011, 11:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If you think Messier is a top-10 player thanks to his career totals... then you are overrating him. He belongs in the 20-30 range. Generally, the people in this section do not overrate him.

Dude's got a lot going for him:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=27918473&postcount=2
He ended up 22nd on the last top 100 list on these boards here and although I think he might be overrated I have a pretty hard time finding any player ranked lower than him and saying that they were better than Messier overall.

25 seasons in the NHL (arguably better than the average NHL'er in 20 of those seasons) and his 6 cups and his scoring, which was still quite good after you adjust for era all make him around the 22nd best of all time in my books.

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01-29-2011, 12:08 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
He ended up 22nd on the last top 100 list on these boards here and although I think he might be overrated I have a pretty hard time finding any player ranked lower than him and saying that they were better than Messier overall.

25 seasons in the NHL (arguably better than the average NHL'er in 20 of those seasons) and his 6 cups and his scoring, which was still quite good after you adjust for era all make him around the 22nd best of all time in my books.
20 of 25? I dunno, I think it's even more. I'll give you his rookie year for sure, that's one. As for 1998-2001, there's no way a guy who averaged from 0.71 to 0.82 PPG in the dead puck era was below average. whether he was declining defensively or not, or losing his leadership abilities, or languishing on a bad team, or miscast as a first liner, he was an above average player.

that leaves his final three. double his 2002 season to 82 games and he has 46 points, right in line with the next two seasons. He was basically a "half a point a game" guy those years. Using 2004 as the example, he was actually the 91st-highest scoring forward in the NHL, so on most teams he would be the 3rd-highest scorer. Same thing as before; even if he was getting to be bad defensively, and got more opportunity by being on the bad Rangers, it's tough to argue that a guy who (yes, barely) posted 1st-line caliber point totals was below average.

I know we're on the same side here and it's nitpicky, but yeah, I don't think I'd say he was ever below average aside from 1980.

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01-29-2011, 02:19 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
In terms of intangibles though, people overrate them because they overrate the importance of these perceived intangibles that these two players had.
I don't understand this statement at all. Unless you played in the NHL, and on one of Messier's teams no less, how can you say with certainty that his intangibles were overrated? Listen to Messier's teammates, peers (and opposing coaches) talk about him and that's what's important. It's easy to watch games on TV from a cozy sofa and pick players apart. But when it comes to intangibles such as great leadership, desire and inspiration, I'll put some stock into what Messier's peers had to say.

Watch "The Boys on the Bus" documentary on the Oilers and the players flatout said, "Messier is the soul of the team." Read the book "Keenan" and Mike Keenan talks about his series vs. Messier while he was coaching the Blackhawks and how Messier flipped a switch and just willed the Oilers past his Hawks. He said during the pivotal game of the series, Messier came out in the first shift, threw a few nasty checks, scored a goal and pretty much took the game (and series) over.

On different occasions, Kevin Lowe was on record of saying that Gretzky was their superstar but Messier was the engine that drove the Oilers, hence them winning a Cup under Messier and without Gretzky.

In all walks of professional life, leaders and motivators are extremely important. The best ones are pretty much invaluable. There are a lot of talented players and teams who never reach their potential because the chemistry is not there and/or the leadership is lacking. A player like Messier had the gift to lead, which is why he was a champion.

Messier's package places him in the top 10-15 all-time IMO. But if we want to just measure players on their raw skill and flash, then we may as well bump Alex Kovalev up into the top 10.

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01-29-2011, 08:55 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
20 of 25? I dunno, I think it's even more. I'll give you his rookie year for sure, that's one. As for 1998-2001, there's no way a guy who averaged from 0.71 to 0.82 PPG in the dead puck era was below average. whether he was declining defensively or not, or losing his leadership abilities, or languishing on a bad team, or miscast as a first liner, he was an above average player.

that leaves his final three. double his 2002 season to 82 games and he has 46 points, right in line with the next two seasons. He was basically a "half a point a game" guy those years. Using 2004 as the example, he was actually the 91st-highest scoring forward in the NHL, so on most teams he would be the 3rd-highest scorer. Same thing as before; even if he was getting to be bad defensively, and got more opportunity by being on the bad Rangers, it's tough to argue that a guy who (yes, barely) posted 1st-line caliber point totals was below average.

I know we're on the same side here and it's nitpicky, but yeah, I don't think I'd say he was ever below average aside from 1980.
The 20 seasons was off the top of my head but along with the rookie season, I will add at least 2 and probably all 3 of his Canuck seasons where he was a divisive force in the locker room instead of the "leader" that he is always proclaimed to be.

Part of being a leader is providing an example and making the players around you better. For whatever reason that was severely lacking in Vancouver and he actually made the team worse with his divisive and egotistical antics. His overall impact in the 3 years in Vancouver was less than the average NHL'er at the time IMO.

I'll throw 02 into the mix as well as he had a line of 41-7-16-23 and a minus 1 for the season.

Even in 04 his stats might have been slightly above average but his team did worse than the previous 2 seasons, albeit with some older but still talented players. His leadership qualities take a severe hit when you look at his overall record IMO.

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01-29-2011, 09:26 AM
  #41
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I have him in my top 30-35. Solid player, great fit for any team. His leadership qualities are over-rated but other than that I think Messier is rated where he should be.

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01-29-2011, 10:15 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Will leave the rankings and your overall mischaractering yet another all-time N. American great. (First Potvin, now Messier. Funny. Both would tear Jagr's head off in a nanosecond.)

This ^^^^, however, is fiction. I lived in NYC at the time and had season tickets at MSG, including the Cup year.

Produce in the #1 media market in the world and, indeed, you will get a lot of coverage.

However, "overhyped," unless you, as many others here do, is simply misusing the word, is flat out wrong. Messier was critical to that team. And in NYC, the contributions of many other Ranger players to that '94 team was duly noted, to this very day. Of course, you unfortunately go to the lazy, "leech" meme, whereby you point out that he got lots of help from talented teammates.

And that's bad? That DETRACTS in any way from the fact that NYR Cup run revolved around him joining them, fall, 1991?

As for Messier's leadership abilities, read what the player's own peers said about him throughout his career. Excuse me if I weight their opinions just a bit more.

***

It's funny. One had the privilege of experienced hockey history first-hand with the Isles in the early 80s and NYR in the mid-90s. Little did I know at the time that it would be re-written into fiction, right here, in subsequent decades.
Hockey being a team game, I find it funny when people say, "well, without so and so, or so and so, they wouldn't of won the Cup." No kidding.

You must admit, though, the media (not just NY) had a huge man-crush for Messier. If he played a couple games in a row in the playoffs without being a huge factor, it was always assumed by the media he was hurt. But he was playing through it. As if most guys in a playoff run aren't doing just that.

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01-29-2011, 01:08 PM
  #43
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Not overrated.

It's funny actually, seeing this post after watching OTR last night where JR was on and talking about the only guy that he ever hated going into a faceoff against and that actually scared him was Messier.

I think if anything, he's somewhat underrated, at least as far as how dirty, mean and nasty he was.
The kids today just don't understand that you just didn't want to get on his bad side, teammates included.
When he talked, you damn well listened.

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01-29-2011, 01:16 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Is Messier overrated in terms of all-time greats?

Discuss.


"He dominated his peers"

Apart from 2 seasons he was never dominant and wasn't even a top 10 forward most seasons.
Depending on how high he is rated he could be overrated by many people.

I call crap on him not being a top 10 forward most seasons. He was for a decade easily, maybe longer. He was widely considered the second or third best forward to Gretzky and then Mario for many seasons before he ever won the Hart.

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01-29-2011, 01:20 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
In terms of intangibles though, people overrate them because they overrate the importance of these perceived intangibles....
Actually, people who can see no further than numbers and flashy plays underrate intangibles. As do people who never played the game at any level (on the ice, that is). To these types, quite often, "intangibles" mean ANYTHING other than a sexy toe drag, a dangle, a goal. Or simply shiny offensive stats. We see that in spades on this board daily.

Frankly, I think Jagr showed superb intangibles the spring of 2001. His team making an improbable run to the Eastern Conference Finals behind the recently returned #66, he pouted like a petulent self-centered child, upset over having to give up some of the spotlight.

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01-29-2011, 01:20 PM
  #46
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Messier along with joe sakic had one of the worst '10 year starts' to thier careers among players in the hoh top 35. Messier was only elite from 87-92, other than that he padded his regular season stats, he was good from 95-97, but the remainder of his career is meaningless.

I also feel that some of his hart votes were completely unjust, no way was he the 2nd best player in 1996. Jagr and Lindros easily outpointed him, Fedorov was better defensively and offensively.

I used to rank him above Ted Lindsay and Bobby Clarke but have now decided to change my opinion and rank him below them, they were significantly better at age 20-30 than messier was.
Seriously you say he was only elite from 1987-1992? Really? That is absurd.

160+ Playoff Points, A Conn Smythe, 4 Cups, 5 finals, 4 100 point season, a 50 goal year. Top player in International Best of Tournaments. He was a top tier HHOF pick after 10 NHL seasons. And his best seasons were AFTER this amazing first 10 years.


Last edited by Sens Rule: 01-29-2011 at 01:31 PM.
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01-29-2011, 02:52 PM
  #47
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25 to 35 is good I think. Anything higher than 20 or lower than 40 is really underrating or overrating him.

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01-29-2011, 04:10 PM
  #48
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Seriously you say he was only elite from 1987-1992? Really? That is absurd.

160+ Playoff Points, A Conn Smythe, 4 Cups, 5 finals, 4 100 point season, a 50 goal year. Top player in International Best of Tournaments. He was a top tier HHOF pick after 10 NHL seasons. And his best seasons were AFTER this amazing first 10 years.
I'm sorry, which player in the top 35 was worse from the age 20-30? In Mark Messier's first 7 seasons, he was a top 10 scorer once and a top 20 scorer once. If crosby and ovechkin produced like that, everyone would call them busts.

Stan Mikita, Bobby Hull, Jagr, Esposito at the same age were winning harts and art rosses. Bobby Clarke and Brian Trottier's first 10 years were decisevely better than Messier's. I'm comparing him to the greats pal, not the average stars.

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01-29-2011, 04:15 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Actually, people who can see no further than numbers and flashy plays underrate intangibles. As do people who never played the game at any level (on the ice, that is). To these types, quite often, "intangibles" mean ANYTHING other than a sexy toe drag, a dangle, a goal. Or simply shiny offensive stats. We see that in spades on this board daily.

Frankly, I think Jagr showed superb intangibles the spring of 2001. His team making an improbable run to the Eastern Conference Finals behind the recently returned #66, he pouted like a petulent self-centered child, upset over having to give up some of the spotlight.
I saw first hand what happened when Messier had to carry mediocre teams, we all in vancouver knew how great of a leader he really was.

It's easy to be a clutch guy when you play on teams that already bought talent.

I remember you used to tell me that Jagr being ranked above trottier and others was alright because he brought offense to another level like gretz and mario. Now your saying he's just another numbers guy with flash?


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01-29-2011, 07:49 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
It's easy to be a clutch guy when you play on teams that already bought talent.
Do you really believe that statement? See, I do not begrudge you that opinion. However, it is a waste of both our times even discussing it further. Like trying to reach the Planet Neptune from Earth with regard to our respective takes on that topic.

Quote:
remember you used to tell me that Jagr being ranked above trottier and others was alright because he brought offense to another level like gretz and mario. Now your saying he's just another numbers guy with flash?
Please reference where I wrote that Jaromir Jagr was "just another numbers guy with flash" or anything of the kind. (You can't.) And nothing I have posted should be misrepresented (as you did above) as contradicting my high opinion of Jaromir Jagr's NHL career.

My comment about "intangibles" had nothing to do with the player, it had to do entirely with a breed of poster incapable of assessing a player's worth beyond raw offensive numbers and highlight plays.

BTW - my reminding some of Jagr's childish spring 2001 melodramatics was, frankly, a reality check directed at a poster who lavishes #68 (fully his right) while spewing falsehood about the likes of Denis Potvin and Mark Messier (fully absurd).


Last edited by Trottier: 01-29-2011 at 07:56 PM.
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