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Messier overrated?

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Old
01-29-2011, 07:59 PM
  #51
MeowLeafs
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He is overrated. You look at him being 2nd in all-time points, but then you look at the context...

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01-29-2011, 08:17 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by KewlBum View Post
He is overrated. You look at him being 2nd in all-time points, but then you look at the context...
Of course, you refer above only to the context of a - wait for it - single personal statistic.

Myopic numerical metrics have now taken over the History of Hockey board, apparently. Yipee.

The player was a lot more than simply compiling points; that is part of what made him so special. That he finished 2nd overall in points is a superb milestone, but no one familiar with the game (and player) evaluates Mark Messier by that marker.

At least not those of us who watched him, as opposed to simply "looking at" his numbers in retrospect. Put in proper "context", he was one of the greats of his era, easily.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-29-2011 at 08:24 PM.
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01-29-2011, 08:22 PM
  #53
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Definitely not overrated. Besides being 2nd in points, not too many stars were willingly throwing beauties like this when needed to win a game:


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01-29-2011, 08:26 PM
  #54
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01-29-2011, 10:16 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Wonder how many games he would get for that today?

And really how brave do you have to be to play that way?

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01-29-2011, 10:26 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Wonder how many games he would get for that today?
Plenty. Proper hockey society has evolved to a kinder and gentler place.

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And really how brave do you have to be to play that way?
I'm neither advocating nor offended by plays like that. It is what it is and was entirely proper for the time and place. Clearly it would not be today.

Was Messier "brave"? Doesn't matter, either way. Especially when you are the guy lying on the ice, reaching for your chicklets. (Better to be the guy delivering the hit.) Messier's play throughout his career spoke for itself and he owes no one an apology for it; moralists be damned. He would skate around you..or through you. Many opponents were not up to it. Likewise, it upsets many fans to this day.

Advantage #11.

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01-29-2011, 10:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Plenty. Proper hockey society has evolved to a kinder and gentler place.



I'm neither advocating nor offended by plays like that. It is what it is and was entirely proper for the time and place. Clearly it would not be today.

Was Messier "brave"? Doesn't matter, either way. Especially when you are the guy lying on the ice, reaching for your chicklets. (Better to be the guy delivering the hit.) Messier's play throughout his career spoke for itself and he owes no one an apology for it; moralists be damned. He would skate around you..or through you. Many opponents were not up to it. Likewise, it upsets many fans to this day.

Advantage #11.
Yeah, its all good unless it was your son laying on the ice from a dirty premeditated hit like that.. although I suppose you'd be ok paying for your son's new teeth and dealing with the concussion symptoms (possibly for life).

While I understand intimidation and really enjoy the physical battles in hockey.. I'll never give my ok to crap like that. Disgusting and unsportsmanlike play.

Same thing with Clarke in the summit series.. that has always sullied the win for me.

Same thing with Cormier's elbows more recently.. said a lot to me about Lamirello when he sent him packing from the Devils org asap after that.

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01-29-2011, 11:05 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Plenty. Proper hockey society has evolved to a kinder and gentler place.



I'm neither advocating nor offended by plays like that. It is what it is and was entirely proper for the time and place. Clearly it would not be today.

Was Messier "brave"? Doesn't matter, either way. Especially when you are the guy lying on the ice, reaching for your chicklets. (Better to be the guy delivering the hit.) Messier's play throughout his career spoke for itself and he owes no one an apology for it; moralists be damned. He would skate around you..or through you. Many opponents were not up to it. Likewise, it upsets many fans to this day.

Advantage #11.
No doubt it was an advantage to him and fit in the time and place argument but so did slavery and beating ones' wife when they deserved it.

Perhaps a couple of extreme comparisons but I totally agree with Brave Canadian's response on the post.

While it might have helped players like Clarke and Messier create more time and space on the ice when they played they do not deserve anyone's respect (or indifference) for their actions but that's just my opinion and I understand why some don't view it as a negative on a players career.

I don't view it as a negative on viewing guys like Clarke or Messier personally but I really view there actions as chicken***t moves and the actions should be viewed as such IMO regardless of time and place.

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01-29-2011, 11:39 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I saw first hand what happened when Messier had to carry mediocre teams, we all in vancouver knew how great of a leader he really was.

It's easy to be a clutch guy when you play on teams that already bought talent.

I remember you used to tell me that Jagr being ranked above trottier and others was alright because he brought offense to another level like gretz and mario. Now your saying he's just another numbers guy with flash?
Ahhh, this coming from the guy who was arguing Messier for 15th all time due to his intangibles and leadership and overall play

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01-29-2011, 11:51 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Ahhh, this coming from the guy who was arguing Messier for 15th all time due to his intangibles and leadership and overall play
15th best forward, i have never ranked him 15th all time. You once said lafluer and esposito blow jagr out of the water, i couldnt stop laughing when you said that. Either way I decided to change my criteria anyways. Now I rank players based on how they performed in thier first 10 seasons, rather than basing it on career arguments. That is why Joe Sakic and Messier have dropped in my rankings since they were nothing special until they hit thier 30's.


Last edited by ushvinder: 01-29-2011 at 11:57 PM.
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01-30-2011, 12:07 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Now I rank players based on how they performed in thier first 10 seasons, rather than basing it on career arguments. That is why Joe Sakic and Messier have dropped in my rankings since they were nothing special until they hit thier 30's.
lol

That has to be a troll. You can't be serious. Why not their first 11 or 9 years?

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01-30-2011, 12:31 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
No doubt it was an advantage to him and fit in the time and place argument but so did slavery and beating ones' wife when they deserved it.

Perhaps a couple of extreme comparisons but I totally agree with Brave Canadian's response on the post.

While it might have helped players like Clarke and Messier create more time and space on the ice when they played they do not deserve anyone's respect (or indifference) for their actions but that's just my opinion and I understand why some don't view it as a negative on a players career.

I don't view it as a negative on viewing guys like Clarke or Messier personally but I really view there actions as chicken***t moves and the actions should be viewed as such IMO regardless of time and place.
Gordie Howe was regarded as the best hockey player EVER for almost two decades until Orr came around and still is by many knowledgable fans. Same with Shore before him. Both could be dirty as hell for intimidation purposes. So was Messier. Like it or not it was effective and it helped his teams win hockey games and playoff series and Stanley Cups. I don't particularly like Mark Messier but where he is rated on an all time list should be based on his effectiveness not how much we like his style.

Some love Pavel Bure's style. I did not like it, and I do not think it was as effective in winning hockey games to play the style he did rather than the style Messier did. Bure was fantastic to watch on highlight reels but his teams did not win because Bure was totally concerned with scoring goals and not winning hockey games. I think with the long suspension Messier earned early in his career he learned how to manage his aggression and not hurt his team with his dirty and aggressive play but to help it.

I may think Bobby Hull is arrogant and an ass, Messier an ego-maniac and Clarke a horrible person. If I did think those things it would not diminish what they did on the ice in winning hockey games and being game changing players.

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01-30-2011, 12:33 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
15th best forward, i have never ranked him 15th all time. You once said lafluer and esposito blow jagr out of the water, i couldnt stop laughing when you said that. Either way I decided to change my criteria anyways. Now I rank players based on how they performed in thier first 10 seasons, rather than basing it on career arguments. That is why Joe Sakic and Messier have dropped in my rankings since they were nothing special until they hit thier 30's.
Why would you rate players based on only their first 10 years? Sounds like a pretty dumb way to rank anyone but Mike Bossy.

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01-30-2011, 12:42 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
I've always thought that Messier along with Sakic were one of the most overrated players in the NHL history. Both mostly due to "intangibles".
Your wrong. These players were the best leaders of their time!

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01-30-2011, 01:07 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Why would you rate players based on only their first 10 years? Sounds like a pretty dumb way to rank anyone but Mike Bossy.
How good you were in your 20's is the best way to indicate the ability of a player, I could care less if certain players were able to stay healthy and remain productive past 35.

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01-30-2011, 01:35 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
How good you were in your 20's is the best way to indicate the ability of a player, I could care less if certain players were able to stay healthy and remain productive past 35.
but wouldn't that break the tie between players who were otherwise equal in their 20s?

or, more importantly, wouldn't it boost a player with far superior longevity past someone who was only slightly better in their 20s?

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01-30-2011, 01:35 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
How good you were in your 20's is the best way to indicate the ability of a player, I could care less if certain players were able to stay healthy and remain productive past 35.
So a players play from 28 to 35 is not important either?

Anyway you have shown with this strategy of yours that your opinions are not very well considered.

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01-30-2011, 02:17 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
but wouldn't that break the tie between players who were otherwise equal in their 20s?

or, more importantly, wouldn't it boost a player with far superior longevity past someone who was only slightly better in their 20s?
Well i tend to use this method more towards forwards because goalies and defenseman peak later. A perfect example is sakic, trottier and lafluer. Sakic had the most longevity but is usually ranked last between them. I'm sure his lackluster first 10 years is a big reason for this.

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01-30-2011, 03:46 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Well i tend to use this method more towards forwards because goalies and defenseman peak later. A perfect example is sakic, trottier and lafluer. Sakic had the most longevity but is usually ranked last between them. I'm sure his lackluster first 10 years is a big reason for this.
I'm ok with him coming behind them because the standards for longevity changed big time in the 12-17 years between the starts of their careers and the start of his. I realize most people don't account for that, so by some people's standards, maybe Sakic should be ahead.

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01-30-2011, 04:35 AM
  #70
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If you have him rated higher than #35 of all time, yes he is overrated.
I agree with this guy, except I'd say more like higher than 30. I've got him around mid to late 30s, not going any later than 40 (which, going by HF's top 100 list, puts him around company like Yzerman, Brodeur, Dryden, and Chelios. Not exactly a slight).

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01-30-2011, 07:06 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Tyler Seguin View Post
Definitely not overrated. Besides being 2nd in points, not too many stars were willingly throwing beauties like this when needed to win a game:

Someone please explain this to me.

How does he get any kind of positive credit out of this?

All I see is a huge elbow... intent to injure. I mean injuring someone to win a game is so wrong. Doing everything to win the game my a$s. Where's the line? I mean he has a stick in his hand, why not just hit the other guy across the head with it and take him out?

Same with Clarke when he broke Kharlamov's ankle.
These players should not get credit for stuff like this...

Funny how Kovalev doesn't get any credit for throwing a huge elbow on Tie Domi. Not that he should of course...

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01-30-2011, 08:24 AM
  #72
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Exactly. Hockey is still only a game. Cheapshots like that are delivered only by suckers like Messier or Clarke. And then they get praised for leadership and "willing to do anything" character. I have absolutely no respect for suckers like that. Anyone can cheapshot.

Messier is a very good player though. But stuff like this really takes away from his legacy in my view.

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01-30-2011, 09:43 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Exactly. Hockey is still only a game. Cheapshots like that are delivered only by suckers like Messier or Clarke. And then they get praised for leadership and "willing to do anything" character. I have absolutely no respect for suckers like that. Anyone can cheapshot.

Messier is a very good player though. But stuff like this really takes away from his legacy in my view.
It basically shows that to be as effective as they were they had to cheat to an extent. How is that good leadership? Leading by example is always the best form of leadership, and these cheapshots are not good examples to lead by.

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01-30-2011, 10:24 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post

Funny how Kovalev doesn't get any credit for throwing a huge elbow on Tie Domi. Not that he should of course...
Not true:




I thought these were pretty good. Loved that part of Kovalev's game.

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01-30-2011, 11:46 AM
  #75
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Exactly. Hockey is still only a game. Cheapshots like that are delivered only by suckers like Messier or Clarke. And then they get praised for leadership and "willing to do anything" character. I have absolutely no respect for suckers like that. Anyone can cheapshot.

Messier is a very good player though. But stuff like this really takes away from his legacy in my view.
When Messier would blatantly elbow or stick a guy I would always cringe and say "he shouldn't have done that..." but, because it was Messier I would always kinda smile and laugh. If a guy is going to take a penalty, at least he made it worth while.

Cheap shots? Yep, but he brought so much else to the table it was easy to forgive.

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