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Toronto to make a big move (or moves?)

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Old
01-30-2011, 12:11 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Megan Fox View Post
@8BostonRocker24

Calm down, killer. I never said the Leafs were going to pass Boston this year or next. I just said we were trying. No need to start frothing at the mouth.
Adding a piece like Joe Colborne or Boston's 1st in 2011 (Either of which I think is a fair return for a rental TK) would go a lot further to Toronto catching Boston down the road then a 33 year old (starting next season) Tomas Kaberle.

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01-30-2011, 12:12 PM
  #577
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There's no goalie prospect in the NHL who is just thrown confidently into the starter's role.
Sigh. And this has been argued by whom, and is relevant to any point in this discussion in what way?

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01-30-2011, 12:14 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by MapleLeaf View Post
It might surprise you, but when talking in terms of goalie's, you're actually right:

http://gospelofhockey.blogspot.com/2...kents-old.html
However, I wasn't talking in terms of goalies when I was using that example. And it doesn't surprise me. I've read that article too.

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01-30-2011, 12:17 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
I'll go out on a limb and assume you know only 11 teams in the whole league had an 80+ point player last year (and that almost 40% of those failed to make the playoffs)?
And?

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01-30-2011, 12:28 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
Adding a piece like Joe Colborne or Boston's 1st in 2011 (Either of which I think is a fair return for a rental TK) would go a lot further to Toronto catching Boston down the road then a 33 year old (starting next season) Tomas Kaberle.
yeah, because adding a couple of pieces who might turn into 2nd liners in 5 years, with the odds saying only one of them makes it, would really help the team in a big way.

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01-30-2011, 12:36 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
Adding a piece like Joe Colborne or Boston's 1st in 2011 (Either of which I think is a fair return for a rental TK) would go a lot further to Toronto catching Boston down the road then a 33 year old (starting next season) Tomas Kaberle.
Who cares? Colbourne or a pick doesn't replace Kaberle. Would you trade Chara for two lottery picks?

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01-30-2011, 12:37 PM
  #582
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Hehe, right. You do actually need that explained. OK, here goes. The relatively straightforward and simple point I attempted to illustrate is that quantity of prospects doesn't compensate for quality. Three decent/average G prospects don't give you what one premier G prospect does. Just like three 5th round picks is not worth nearly as much as one 1st round pick. It's a question of probabilities.

The fact that exceptionally, players drafted in the late round turn ingto stars, does of course not change this. For every Henrik Zetterberg there are 200 nobodies. This is actually pretty basic logic you know.
You don't say??

Well thank you for clarifying the low odds of later round picks actually making it to the NHL.

And here I thought you were just bursting our collective bubbles about our goaltending depth. Surely this couldn't happen with any other position in hockey...just goaltending???

Mind = Blown

Are you sure you don't want to bring up Karel Pilar into this discussion as a measuring stick of our defence seeing that we also have an abundance of (close to) NHL ready D prospects as well??


Oh and.......... (just in case)




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Originally Posted by Qvist View Post
Well, allow me to correct you for having misinterpreted my above statement. Of course late round picks and undrafted players can develop into NHL stars. I don't know that Reimer can't develop into a premier G prospect. Nor have I remotely argued any such thing. I am simply pointing out that if you're projecting, the possibility that Reimer might reach that level is not the same thing as a reasonable likelihood that he will. Furthermore, that three decent prospects does not in fact equal one really good one.
Well if you actually watched him play instead of looking at YouTube highlights, you'd see that his only significant weakness is his glove hand...everything else (his positioning, lateral movement, rebound control etc) is NHL caliber.

The fact that in his stint of being called up to the big club, he has one of the best Save percentages should tell you that he's ready to play in this league.

Are we saying he's the next Patrick Roy?? No, but he's eventually going to be a reliable NHL goaltender.

You should try watching some Marlies games before you start calculating our odds of failure when it comes to our goaltending depth. It might help in your assessment.


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Oh right, good, it's just the drop-outs we're getting in this thread then.
Say what you want but I'm not coming in here and spouting off like I'm an expert in Norwegian player development and what Sondre Olden's ceiling is for example like you are to our goaltending prospects playing in NA.

It's funny how our prospects are always perceived as this big question mark while other teams prospects are "ZOMMG, he's teh bestest ever" without actually watching a handful of games first. It gets annoying after awhile.

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01-30-2011, 12:37 PM
  #583
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Of course they're going to change in 5 years! Did you friggin think anyone was assuming that Kadri/Kulemin/Kessel would be the same five years down the road as they are now?

I simply don't think they project as players who will be good enough to give the Leafs a really bona fide top line. Is there a likely 80-pt player in there, down the road? Don't think so. I don't see them as a viable forward core for a contending team in five years. Though there is no doubt no shortage of Leafs fans who do.
Well there were only 10 teams last year with players who hit the 80 plateau. Doesnt really mean a whole lot. All 3 of those players could be very good down the road. It's fine that you don't feel so, it's your opinion, but they're all very good right now (kadri has some progress to make but is pretty young) and will only continue to improve.

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01-30-2011, 12:39 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Megan Fox View Post
Who cares? Colbourne or a pick doesn't replace Kaberle. Would you trade Chara for two lottery picks?
Chara > Kaberle
Boston and Toronto are at different ends of The NHL standings. Boston is pushing for a cup, Toronto is one of the worst teams in The NHL. Chara is signed for an additional 7 years, Kaberle is a pending UFA. If Kaberle was signed for another 7 years it would make less sense to move him for a 1st or another team's top prospect. But he isn't, he's a rental.

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01-30-2011, 01:22 PM
  #585
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And?
And it always amuses me where people set the bar for Toronto compared to the rest of the league.

If all our prospects aren't at least 100 point forwards we don't have a first line, yadda yadda yadda.......


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01-30-2011, 01:30 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
And it always amuses me where people set the bar for Toronto compared to the rest of the league.

If all our prospects aren't at least 100 point forwards we don't have a first line, yadda yadda yadda.......

When you've failed miserably for the better part of 40 plus years, it's just easy to make light of your situation or pick on you. Trust me I know.

Also, Toronto has bit pieces that a contending team might want. But "BIG MOVES" is highly unlikely. They are not in a position to get better with big moves, sure they can turn over their team. But it's garbage out garbage in as far as I'm concerned.


Last edited by Falconator: 01-30-2011 at 01:35 PM.
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01-30-2011, 01:47 PM
  #587
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When you've failed miserably for the better part of 40 plus years, it's just easy to make light of your situation or pick on you. Trust me I know.

Also, Toronto has bit pieces that a contending team might want. But "BIG MOVES" is highly unlikely. They are not in a position to get better with big moves, sure they can turn over their team. But it's garbage out garbage in as far as I'm concerned.
See below. Computer messed up.


Last edited by eyeball11: 01-30-2011 at 01:57 PM.
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01-30-2011, 01:57 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
When you've failed miserably for the better part of 40 plus years, it's just easy to make light of your situation or pick on you. Trust me I know.

Also, Toronto has bit pieces that a contending team might want. But "BIG MOVES" is highly unlikely. They are not in a position to get better with big moves, sure they can turn over their team. But it's garbage out garbage in as far as I'm concerned.
Probably depends how you look at things. Say someone wants MacArthur. Cost to us was nothing. He may continue the rest of his career bein a point producer. He may also be having his one good season. Say a team wants Beauchemin, one of the biggest minute eaters in the league. Cost to us was also nothing. If Beauchemin + MacArthur lands you a piece that's solid year in and year out (but just still at the early stages of his development today), that could be your "big" move. You already have a 21 year old AHL All Star D man who should be with your club. Bring him up and right there, your team is potentially improved.

All just random speculation.

Yes, yes, I know everyone here will say "but Beauchemin and MacArthur aren't worth more than a 5th". Thankfully, I've followed enough hockey to know most people here wouldn't know real world player value if it bashed them upside the head. They can't even be bothered to look a year or two in the past to get an idea of it.

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01-30-2011, 01:58 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Probably depends how you look at things. Say someone wants MacArthur. Cost to us was nothing. He may continue the rest of his career bein a point producer. He may also be having his one good season. Say a team wants Beauchemin, one of the biggest minute eaters in the league. Cost to us was also nothing. If Beauchemin + MacArthur lands you a piece that's solid year in and year out (but just still at the early stages of his development today), that could be your "big" move. You already have a 21 year old AHL All Star D man who should be with your club. Bring him up and right there, your team is potentially improved.

All just random speculation.

Yes, yes, I know everyone here will say "but Beauchemin and MacArthur aren't worth more than a 5th". Thankfully, I've followed enough hockey to know most people here wouldn't know real world player value if it bashed them upside the head. They can't even be bothered to look a year or two in the past to get an idea of it.

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01-30-2011, 04:09 PM
  #590
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You don't say??

Well thank you for clarifying the low odds of later round picks actually making it to the NHL.

And here I thought you were just bursting our collective bubbles about our goaltending depth. Surely this couldn't happen with any other position in hockey...just goaltending???

Mind = Blown

Are you sure you don't want to bring up Karel Pilar into this discussion as a measuring stick of our defence seeing that we also have an abundance of (close to) NHL ready D prospects as well??


Oh and.......... (just in case)
Well, this is really great stuff. First you fail to grasp an example that was so obvious that I didn't think it was possible to misunderstand it, and so didn't bother to explain. Then you get it explained, to which you respond as if someone had told you something so obvious it was embarassing.

Which is perfectly true.

It's just that you nevertheless didn't get it.


I'm not going to bother with the rest. Hit the sack now Einstein, you've got school tomorrow.

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01-30-2011, 04:11 PM
  #591
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And it always amuses me where people set the bar for Toronto compared to the rest of the league.

If all our prospects aren't at least 100 point forwards we don't have a first line, yadda yadda yadda.......

Sorry, but that's a bit paranoid. I don't even have a favorite team, and have no particular grudge against the Leafs. I'm just trying to be realistic.

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01-30-2011, 04:26 PM
  #592
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Well there were only 10 teams last year with players who hit the 80 plateau. Doesnt really mean a whole lot. All 3 of those players could be very good down the road. It's fine that you don't feel so, it's your opinion, but they're all very good right now (kadri has some progress to make but is pretty young) and will only continue to improve.
As I'm sure you realise, there is a considerably larger number of players than that who produce at that level or higher for a number of years during their career. Can you think of many cup winners who didn't have at least one player of that description? A team where none of the three best forwards has a realistic production expectation of at least that, it's hard to see that team as more than at most average.

If you're looking at 5th / 6th in the East, that means the top third in the league.

All three of them are good hockey hockey players with even better potential. But considered as a future top 3, I just don't see that they are particularly impressive, or even barely adequate, on any realistic projection. Is this a group comparable to, say, Getzlaf/Perry/Ryan? Thornton/Marleau/Heatley? Kopitar/Schenn/Brown? Eriksson/Richards/Neal? Sedin/Sedin/Kesler (or Hodgson, if you prefer)? Hall/MPS/Eberle? Duchene/Stastny/Stewart? Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Franzen? Kane/Toews/Hossa? Nash/Johansen/ Brassard or Voracek? At their projected peak? A pretty obvious no, AFAICS.

That's 10 of 15 teams in the Western Conference with a fairly obviously better top 3 core than what the Leafs currently have (and that's on the basis of a relatively optimistic projection of players who still have a long way to go towards that projected reality). And I'm not sure I like their chances against some of the remaining five either. I doubt the comparison looks better in the East.

Sorry, but from a relatively disinterested point of view it just seems obvious that Leafs fans who think this is a good - or even adequate - top 3 forward core for a future contender are letting their hopes run away with them. It isn't, unless 2 or 3 of them exceed expectations in a major way.

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01-30-2011, 06:47 PM
  #593
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Sorry, but that's a bit paranoid. I don't even have a favorite team, and have no particular grudge against the Leafs. I'm just trying to be realistic.
Yes I'm sure you are. Just like the thousands of others who day after day set standards for Toronto that don't even remotely exist for anyone else in the league. Why just a few hours ago I listened to a Boston fan citing Kadri's size as a legitimate reason he might not make the NHL, despite the fact that at 19 he's already heavier than or within a couple pounds of all 5 centres currently on the Bruins.

Problem is most people here on HFBoards have little clue about what the norms actually are around the league and then they spout what Toronto needs (while holding them to a standard that doesn't exist elsewhere). Always amusing.....

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01-30-2011, 08:42 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Yes I'm sure you are. Just like the thousands of others who day after day set standards for Toronto that don't even remotely exist for anyone else in the league. Why just a few hours ago I listened to a Boston fan citing Kadri's size as a legitimate reason he might not make the NHL, despite the fact that at 19 he's already heavier than or within a couple pounds of all 5 centres currently on the Bruins.

Problem is most people here on HFBoards have little clue about what the norms actually are around the league and then they spout what Toronto needs (while holding them to a standard that doesn't exist elsewhere). Always amusing.....
I'd say that almost every fanbase on the board could make an argument that there's a bias against their team - it's the nature of the beast, fans of A will be down on B. Your statement about "spouting off about what Toronto needs" is applicable to the other 29 teams, too, IMHO.

And even though I don't know which B's fan it was or how the conversation evolved, I'm not sure that taking a single inaccurate and/or idiotic comment as proof makes sense. (I'd also argue that the B's centers are undersized & somewhat injury prone as a result, so comparing Kadri to them but that's off-topic at this point)

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01-31-2011, 05:46 PM
  #595
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And?
Well what that says is that this game isn't about having 80pts players but about quality depth and maintaining cap space to have depth.

Chicago even though it has multiple guns lacks in depth this year as they did last and it's why they're fighting for a playoff spot they may not get this year.

It happen to Tampa, it happen to Ottawa and it will happen to a bunch of other teams who have chosen to circumvent the cap with it's loop holes to keep a team of multiple guns together.

The cap will soon make it's purpose if people haven't noticed parity is the name of the game these days and it's the teams that has the most DEPTH that contends not the ones with the best star players.

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01-31-2011, 06:09 PM
  #596
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Who cares? Colbourne or a pick doesn't replace Kaberle. Would you trade Chara for two lottery picks?
Kaberle is not part of the plan moving forward. We either get something for him, or watch him sign with someone else next year, and we get nothing.

So what would you rather have? colbourne/picks, or absolutely nothing?

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01-31-2011, 06:11 PM
  #597
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[QUOTE=wulfio;30571184]Kaberle is not part of the plan moving forward. We either get something for him, or watch him sign with someone else next year, and we get nothing.

So what would you rather have? colbourne/picks, or absolutely nothing?[/QUOTEw

who said kaberle is not part of the plan moving forward

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01-31-2011, 06:13 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by wulfio View Post
Kaberle is not part of the plan moving forward. We either get something for him, or watch him sign with someone else next year, and we get nothing.

So what would you rather have? colbourne/picks, or absolutely nothing?[/QUOTEw

who said kaberle is not part of the plan moving forward
It's Kabs choice not the Leafs choice as to what he does or doesn't do. End of story.

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01-31-2011, 06:21 PM
  #599
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[QUOTE=trellaine201;30571242]
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Originally Posted by TML nation13 View Post

It's Kabs choice not the Leafs choice as to what he does or doesn't do. End of story.
That wasn't the discussion. Please understand what is being discussed before you make dumb comments.

@ TML nation13. If you think a 32 year old player is what we need when we're trying to build a core of under 25 year olds then I don't know what you're smoking, but I want some.

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01-31-2011, 07:13 PM
  #600
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Originally Posted by wulfio View Post
Kaberle is not part of the plan moving forward. We either get something for him, or watch him sign with someone else next year, and we get nothing.

So what would you rather have? colbourne/picks, or absolutely nothing?
Or we could keep Kaberle seeing as how we have no to replace him. Tank Nation died 16 months ago - Burke wants to compete.

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