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01-30-2011, 02:17 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Wow I feel honored to be in the presence of you and jester. To say that running a multi million dollar business is easy. Well then my hats are off to you two. With that knowledge you two posses,I would like you two to break down what a GM of a professional hockey team does on a daily basis. Because if it is as easy as you two make it out to be.I would like to send Ed Snider my cover letter and resume. My salary will be nowhere what Ed just extended Paul. I think Mr.Snider is a smarter businessman than you two give him credit for.He did not get where is his by throwing millions of dollars away on a employee who really doe not have a complicated job and that almost anyone could do. I think there is more to the GM's job than you two will ever know. But I may be wrong here. I am guessing you two have spent numerous hours in the cooperate world of a National Hockey League organization. Thanks for your time and if you would get me that detailed job description it would be much appreciated. PS If I land the gig there would be game tickets for you both at the will call office for the balance of the season
The GMs are not running a business.

Seriously, do you have any idea what a GM's actual job is? The GM isn't determining ticket prizes and marketing strategy, I'll tell you that much.

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01-30-2011, 02:22 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Wow I feel honored to be in the presence of you and jester. To say that running a multi million dollar business is easy. Well then my hats are off to you two. With that knowledge you two posses,I would like you two to break down what a GM of a professional hockey team does on a daily basis. Because if it is as easy as you two make it out to be.I would like to send Ed Snider my cover letter and resume. My salary will be nowhere what Ed just extended Paul. I think Mr.Snider is a smarter businessman than you two give him credit for.He did not get where is his by throwing millions of dollars away on a employee who really doe not have a complicated job and that almost anyone could do. I think there is more to the GM's job than you two will ever know. But I may be wrong here. I am guessing you two have spent numerous hours in the cooperate world of a National Hockey League organization. Thanks for your time and if you would get me that detailed job description it would be much appreciated. PS If I land the gig there would be game tickets for you both at the will call office for the balance of the season
Well, here you run into a problem. GMs do not run a multi-million dollar business. They run the team.



He runs a multi-million dollar business.

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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You watch 82 games of hockey a year. Not only that, you are up to date on all trades, releveant information in the off season, i bet you don't go 10 days without looking at something related to a sports team that you support. Do you go to a bar to watch the games? talk to people you know about the game?

I'm guessing that hockey is one of your major hobbies. Thats a considerable impact on your life. Would be naive to suggest otherwise. Not only that, do you own any flyers merchandise.

Not sure about you, but when the flyers lose, im in a bad mood the next morning.
Hockey is a major hobby in my life, but if it disappeared tomorrow it would not materially affect my life. It's entertaining and fun, that's it. That isn't a considerably impact on my life, it's something I watch on TV and chat on a message board about.

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01-30-2011, 02:24 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, here you run into a problem. GMs do not run a multi-million dollar business. They run the team.



He runs a multi-million dollar business.
That tie is........regrettable.

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01-30-2011, 02:26 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
That tie is........regrettable.
The early 90s were good to him, what can you do?

It's clear that the problem is that people are imbuing the job of the GM with tasks that he is clearly not doing.

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01-30-2011, 02:32 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hockey is a major hobby in my life, but if it disappeared tomorrow it would not materially affect my life. It's entertaining and fun, that's it. That isn't a considerably impact on my life, it's something I watch on TV and chat on a message board about.
It would massively effect your life. You are just lieing if you don't see otherwise. For a start you have a spare 246 hours of time just from not watching the games. ( thats just regular season games for one team too)

With your post count, i would judge that you have spent a considerable amount of time on this message board too. Thats a good deal of time that you would be doing something else.

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01-30-2011, 02:33 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The early 90s were good to him, what can you do?

It's clear that the problem is that people are imbuing the job of the GM with tasks that he is clearly not doing.
Yeah, considering at least half the GMs in the league (including 3 in the Atlantic division alone) have had serious problems understanding the salary cap, the idea that these guys are corporate titans presiding over massive companies is kind of laughable.

And I mean, I think Homer is well above-average in the league and arguably in the top-10 of league GMs, but that's more of an indictment of the rest of the league. Homer is the type of guy who would be a phenomenal No.2 /head of scouting to a more cap-savvy GM.

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01-30-2011, 02:36 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
It would massively effect your life. You are just lieing if you don't see otherwise. For a start you have a spare 246 hours of time just from not watching the games. ( thats just regular season games for one team too)

With your post count, i would judge that you have spent a considerable amount of time on this message board too. Thats a good deal of time that you would be doing something else.
So, I would do something else... it would have zero impact on my career, my family, etc. In short, no material impact on my life.

Winning a championship is great, and lots of people enjoy it. That's nice. But sports are an entertainment business... you can find entertainment elsewhere.

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01-30-2011, 02:41 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah, considering at least half the GMs in the league (including 3 in the Atlantic division alone) have had serious problems understanding the salary cap, the idea that these guys are corporate titans presiding over massive companies is kind of laughable.

And I mean, I think Homer is well above-average in the league and arguably in the top-10 of league GMs, but that's more of an indictment of the rest of the league. Homer is the type of guy who would be a phenomenal No.2 /head of scouting to a more cap-savvy GM.
A lot of GMs have gone off the cliff with the introduction of the salary cap. Lou has been an abject disaster in NJ since the cap was put in place, after being a "genius" for years in NJ.

However, I think that's because we're still in the adjustment period as far as the people who are in front offices goes. We saw the same thing with the NFL. After the cap was put in place, teams were doing really silly stuff on a regular basis and that has slowed down considerably over the last 10 or so years (people forget that the cap came into the NFL only in 1994) as NFL front offices went to far more of a business model in managing their teams (sadly, my Redskins are still a misfit operation).

Hell in the last couple of years, we've seen a significant change in contract structure from where we started right out of the lockout (the adoption of the front loaded contract, which came straight from the NFL with their signing bonus structure). The goalie market has been pulverized as teams began to economize the contract system. We're still in a period of adjustment.

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01-30-2011, 02:48 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A lot of GMs have gone off the cliff with the introduction of the salary cap. Lou has been an abject disaster in NJ since the cap was put in place, after being a "genius" for years in NJ.

However, I think that's because we're still in the adjustment period as far as the people who are in front offices goes. We saw the same thing with the NFL. After the cap was put in place, teams were doing really silly stuff on a regular basis and that has slowed down considerably over the last 10 or so years (people forget that the cap came into the NFL only in 1994) as NFL front offices went to far more of a business model in managing their teams (sadly, my Redskins are still a misfit operation).

Hell in the last couple of years, we've seen a significant change in contract structure from where we started right out of the lockout (the adoption of the front loaded contract, which came straight from the NFL with their signing bonus structure). The goalie market has been pulverized as teams began to economize the contract system. We're still in a period of adjustment.
That's definitely true up to a point and I don't blame Homer for not being the first to figure out some of the loopholes in the system, but some of his moves (the Carle-Jones fiasco, the Jones fiasco itself, etc.) have been abjectly awful and he's backed himself into a cap corner several times.

I mean, we had David Pringle (or whatever his name was), playing games for us in a playoff race, what does that say?

The good news is that he does seem to be figuring it out a bit. The Carter deal at least shows a philosophy, one that might be frickin risky, but one that he's going to roll with and I also thought that the Giroux contract was pretty solid and the numbers being thrown around for Leino are reasonable.

My biggest worry goes back to the ice where I think there is still a huge question in net. Homer got a lot of credit for Leighton last year, but Leighton ultimately cost us a Cup. Now, Homer is (deservedly) getting a lot of credit for Bob right now, but considering the grind of the POs, I can easily see goaltending becoming a serious problem again.

I think people have liked to exaggerate the Flyers goalie problem for a long time, but now, we're in a situation where that position has already cost us 1 Cup and could easily cost us another.

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01-30-2011, 02:53 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
That's definitely true up to a point and I don't blame Homer for not being the first to figure out some of the loopholes in the system, but some of his moves (the Carle-Jones fiasco, the Jones fiasco itself, etc.) have been abjectly awful and he's backed himself into a cap corner several times.

I mean, we had David Pringle (or whatever his name was), playing games for us in a playoff race, what does that say?

The good news is that he does seem to be figuring it out a bit. The Carter deal at least shows a philosophy, one that might be frickin risky, but one that he's going to roll with and I also thought that the Giroux contract was pretty solid and the numbers being thrown around for Leino are reasonable.

My biggest worry goes back to the ice where I think there is still a huge question in net. Homer got a lot of credit for Leighton last year, but Leighton ultimately cost us a Cup. Now, Homer is (deservedly) getting a lot of credit for Bob right now, but considering the grind of the POs, I can easily see goaltending becoming a serious problem again.

I think people have liked to exaggerate the Flyers goalie problem for a long time, but now, we're in a situation where that position has already cost us 1 Cup and could easily cost us another.
Yeah, independent of explicit cap issues, he's also had some problems in figuring out what veterans to bring on to the team at what cost. I also am not a fan of his willingness to wing it in goal against the cap, but that may work out if Bob is more than a flash in the pan rookie goalie. I too wouldn't place a bet on us winning the Cup with Bob between the pipes this year... years to come, I'd be more confident. Just think it's a lot to expect a rookie who has never played this type of season to hold up for the year.

He certainly seems to have a contractual philosophy, and let us hope the inherent risks don't go against us down the line.

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01-30-2011, 02:54 PM
  #361
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Just playing off the Primeau thing... Primeau not figuring out his status earlier in the offseason was a major contributing factor to the organization suffering the worst season in its history.
I'll never forgive that piece of garbage for doing that either. Clarke gave Primeau an out when he told him that doctors would never clear Primeau to play again. He knew that going into the summer yet he still tried to find a way to get back. He handcuffed the team and the team ended up losing it's most important defenseman in Kim Johnsson as a result. The team couldn't sign any free agents either because Mellon Head wasn't sure if he was going to attempt a come back or not.

I'm so glad that locker room rat is gone from this organization and he's nothing more than an after thought. Biggest piece of garbage ever to play hockey. Burned bridges with every organization he ever played for.

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01-30-2011, 02:56 PM
  #362
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I'll never forgive that piece of garbage for doing that either. Clarke gave Primeau an out when he told him that doctors would never clear Primeau to play again. He knew that going into the summer yet he still tried to find a way to get back. He handcuffed the team and the team ended up losing it's most important defenseman in Kim Johnsson as a result. The team couldn't sign any free agents either because Mellon Head wasn't sure if he was going to attempt a come back or not.
I will never criticize a player for wanting/trying to play.

Quote:
I'm so glad that locker room rat is gone from this organization and he's nothing more than an after thought. Biggest piece of garbage ever to play hockey. Burned bridges with every organization he ever played for.
Well, he's still involved in the area down here and has done Flyers TV coverage on Comcast... so he hasn't burned bridges with the Flyers.

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01-30-2011, 03:17 PM
  #363
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I will never criticize a player for wanting/trying to play.
He was never going to be cleared to play. No other doctor was going to clear him. He just couldn't get through his melon-esque skull that he was not going to play again. The fact that no doctor was going to clear him, yet he still tried to come back knowing this was a selfish act. The Flyers more than looked after Primeau and his act by trying to continue to play was nothing more than spitting in their faces.


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Well, he's still involved in the area down here and has done Flyers TV coverage on Comcast... so he hasn't burned bridges with the Flyers.
Give it time. He'll burn the bridge here too. He did it in Detroit and in Carolina. He'll do or say something stupid. He always does.

Like I said, I'm glad he doesn't have a position within the organization as the last thing this franchise needs is this loser casting his shadow over the club.

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01-30-2011, 04:38 PM
  #364
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The GMs are not running a business.

Seriously, do you have any idea what a GM's actual job is? The GM isn't determining ticket prizes and marketing strategy, I'll tell you that much.
Split hairs much?

Last I checked Homer still managed a $50MM+ salary cap, a scouting department, a training department, and and AHL franchise so, yeah, he is still a pretty big deal.

We all understand the Flyer's chain of command so no need to split hairs about the guy's point.

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01-30-2011, 05:13 PM
  #365
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Split hairs much?

Last I checked Homer still managed a $50MM+ salary cap, a scouting department, a training department, and and AHL franchise so, yeah, he is still a pretty big deal.

We all understand the Flyer's chain of command so no need to split hairs about the guy's point.
Ah, that's not splitting hairs. There's a MASSIVE difference between running a multi-million dollar business and being the GM of a sports team.

If you want to argue that being a GM is a difficult job, go for it... but don't suggest there isn't significant difference between what Holmgren does and is responsible for, and what Lukko does and is responsible for.

Even in a setup like NJ, where Lou has a lot more power than Holmren... he isn't the COO.

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01-30-2011, 05:26 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I'll never forgive that piece of garbage for doing that either. Clarke gave Primeau an out when he told him that doctors would never clear Primeau to play again. He knew that going into the summer yet he still tried to find a way to get back. He handcuffed the team and the team ended up losing it's most important defenseman in Kim Johnsson as a result. The team couldn't sign any free agents either because Mellon Head wasn't sure if he was going to attempt a come back or not.

I'm so glad that locker room rat is gone from this organization and he's nothing more than an after thought. Biggest piece of garbage ever to play hockey. Burned bridges with every organization he ever played for.
Clarke did far more damage to this organization in the last 20 years than Primeau did.

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01-30-2011, 05:26 PM
  #367
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I still say teams should look more to business types than former players as GMs.

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01-30-2011, 05:28 PM
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I still say teams should look more to business types than former players as GMs.
I think the current position of GM really should be two. Talent evaluator (should be a hockey guy) and the contract negotiator/cap manager (who should be a business type).

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01-30-2011, 05:32 PM
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I think the current position of GM really should be two. Talent evaluator (should be a hockey guy) and the contract negotiator/cap manager (who should be a business type).
I think that dichotomy is already there, "Talent evaluator"=Head of Scouting and "negotiator"=GM.

And I do think Homer is actually quite good at the former.

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01-30-2011, 05:41 PM
  #370
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Well Barry Harrahan or whatever his name is, is supposed to be our cap expert. He is a lwayer I think

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01-30-2011, 05:54 PM
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Well Barry Harrahan or whatever his name is, is supposed to be our cap expert. He is a lwayer I think
Does he have the authority to stop Homer from signing a deal?

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01-30-2011, 05:55 PM
  #372
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Clarke did far more damage to this organization in the last 20 years than Primeau did.
Clarke had his hand in a lot of very good Flyer teams, and his tenure still has significant weight with regard to the team we see on the ice each night. Unless you don't particularly care for Richards, Carter, and Giroux.

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I think the current position of GM really should be two. Talent evaluator (should be a hockey guy) and the contract negotiator/cap manager (who should be a business type).
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
I think that dichotomy is already there, "Talent evaluator"=Head of Scouting and "negotiator"=GM.

And I do think Homer is actually quite good at the former.
I think this is the direction we're seeing teams across the board (independent of sport) headed. Hockey is going to be slow on this, as it is on everything... but it's clearly the path MLB and NFL teams are taking with greater regularity.

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Well Barry Harrahan or whatever his name is, is supposed to be our cap expert. He is a lwayer I think
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm a fan of this dude... based on some of the stuff that has happened. Doesn't necessarily seem to be on top of his ****.

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01-30-2011, 05:56 PM
  #373
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Does he have the authority to stop Homer from signing a deal?
It sounds like he's simply in an advisory role. He's the guy they were quoting (other than Holmgren) after the Pronger contract, for example.

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01-30-2011, 06:15 PM
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Clarke had his hand in a lot of very good Flyer teams, and his tenure still has significant weight with regard to the team we see on the ice each night. Unless you don't particularly care for Richards, Carter, and Giroux.





I think this is the direction we're seeing teams across the board (independent of sport) headed. Hockey is going to be slow on this, as it is on everything... but it's clearly the path MLB and NFL teams are taking with greater regularity.



Yeah, I'm not sure I'm a fan of this dude... based on some of the stuff that has happened. Doesn't necessarily seem to be on top of his ****.
By the time Richards, Carter, and Giroux came around, Clarke was merely a figurehead IMO.

Clarke had a number of very good teams because he was able to spend more than most, and cover up his mistakes. He would have been absolutely the wrong guy to lead this resurgence.

I have great respect for what Clarke did as a player, but I think he was a good GM in the 90s who the game passed by, and we are lucky he's out of the GM role.

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01-30-2011, 06:33 PM
  #375
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By the time Richards, Carter, and Giroux came around, Clarke was merely a figurehead IMO.

Clarke had a number of very good teams because he was able to spend more than most, and cover up his mistakes. He would have been absolutely the wrong guy to lead this resurgence.

I have great respect for what Clarke did as a player, but I think he was a good GM in the 90s who the game passed by, and we are lucky he's out of the GM role.
Clarke may not be good for the current era (though, I don't think Holmgren is all that different... and certainly spent a lot of time with Clarke).

Whether Clarke was figurehead or not, he put the team in a position to have two 1sts in the stacked 2003 draft, and didn't give away 1sts the way Holmgren has shown a propensity to do. For all the critique Clarke gets for not having young players coming up through the system (really, this is only true on D and G), he always seemed to have good young players coming into the system... and three of 'em are leading our team right now.

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