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If Toffoli Doesn't Make Kings In 2011 Then...

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01-29-2011, 12:49 PM
  #1
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If Toffoli Doesn't Make Kings In 2011 Then...

Tyler Toffoli is on fire and could conceivably score 65 goals in the OHL this season. With another year left in juniors though Toffoli will have to make Kings or be sent back to Ottawa which might be a step backwards. This is exactly what happened to BSchenn,make it and you're in.... And because Toffoli and Schenn are too young to send to Manchester(Chicago has sent NLeddy,JMorin,BPirri down-oh yeah they're Americans or ex-College players) the Kings have no alternative,unless... The Kings like the Hawks did in a by-gone era where Bobby Hull went on a barn storming tour of Europe,send Toffoli to a Swedish or Finnish team to play professional next year which has to be a lot better than juniors...

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01-29-2011, 12:52 PM
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You all know the Kings prefer these kids to play at least one season in Manchester. I don't think we should look for any kid in juniors to make the team next season with the possible exception of Schenn.

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01-29-2011, 12:53 PM
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I can tell you right now that TT is nowhere near NHL ready, ya he is leading the OHL in points but he's still got to round his game out, another year in Ottawa after this will help him and then he'll be able to either crack the lineup in 2012 or play for Manchester. Next year he'll be a star on the Canadian WJC team too, along with Weal

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01-29-2011, 12:55 PM
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I think it's debateable if it's a step back personally. I think if it is a step back has a lot to do with the players mental make up. At age 19 or 20, every player can still have a lot to work on in their game, especially away from the puck, so go work on that. I don't think Schenn will take a step back having gone back to juniors, because Schenn's mentality is to work and work and work and not get down. If Toffoli has the right attitude, going back to junior isn't the worst thing. Going on some road trip through Europe, where he'd have to adjust to not only a new league and style of play but also a whole new culture, isn't any better in my opinion.

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01-29-2011, 01:07 PM
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I think it's debateable if it's a step back personally. I think if it is a step back has a lot to do with the players mental make up. At age 19 or 20, every player can still have a lot to work on in their game, especially away from the puck, so go work on that. I don't think Schenn will take a step back having gone back to juniors, because Schenn's mentality is to work and work and work and not get down. If Toffoli has the right attitude, going back to junior isn't the worst thing. Going on some road trip through Europe, where he'd have to adjust to not only a new league and style of play but also a whole new culture, isn't any better in my opinion.
Going back to juniors might be step backwards if he starts to learn some bad habits which could happen...Playing against men would force Toffoli to get better and stronger in a hurry. It could also force him to play a different game from his sniper role too...which might be a negative since the Kings like the way he scores. My point is... Think of the developing junior-college leagues as A-ball, AHL as AA-ball,Europe as AAA-ball and the NHL as you know...

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01-29-2011, 01:09 PM
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It's a lot easier to be an offensive force in Junior hockey. Than the NHL, I think people don't understand how big an adjustment it is.

I am certain the Kings will want TT to work on a two way game in the AHL before he even sets foot on the Big club.

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01-29-2011, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AStammer7 View Post
Going back to juniors might be step backwards if he starts to learn some bad habits which could happen...Playing against men would force Toffoli to get better and stronger in a hurry. It could also force him to play a different game from his sniper role too...which might be a negative since the Kings like the way he scores. My point is... Think of the developing junior-college leagues as A-ball, AHL as AA-ball,Europe as AAA-ball and the NHL as you know...
SRSLY, Stop posting these nonsense threads . . . You're not a scout and you have no experience in player development. Why are players like Jordan Eberle who in 08-09 had really nothing left to prove in Juniors and were expected to make the team, didn't, then was sent back to Juniors and Dominated + Played in another WJC. Now, he's playing very well in Edmonton.

I can use the same reference with players like Alex Pietrangelo & Luca Sbisa. Both players were expected to make their NHL teams but then got sent back to Juniors after their 9 game grace-period. Now, they're playing great with their teams.

Just because TT is leading in scoring doesn't mean he's automatically ready for the NHL . . Also it's really silly that you put Brayden Schenn in this category. How has going back to Juniors affected Schenn negatively? Tying the scoring record at WJC? Getting injured?

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01-29-2011, 01:31 PM
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SRSLY, Stop posting these nonsense threads . . . You're not a scout and you have no experience in player development. Why are players like Jordan Eberle who in 08-09 had really nothing left to prove in Juniors and were expected to make the team, didn't, then was sent back to Juniors and Dominated + Played in another WJC. Now, he's playing very well in Edmonton.

I can use the same reference with players like Alex Pietrangelo & Luca Sbisa. Both players were expected to make their NHL teams but then got sent back to Juniors after their 9 game grace-period. Now, they're playing great with their teams.

Just because TT is leading in scoring doesn't mean he's automatically ready for the NHL . . Also it's really silly that you put Brayden Schenn in this category. How has going back to Juniors affected Schenn negatively? Tying the scoring record at WJC? Getting injured?
The Point was that players outgrow their team and league and should be able to play at a higher level...Schenn played well and even dominated WJC...but really he dominated who...not that I'm slamming Schenn I'm not...the Point is and I'll say it again,once you reach a certain level and dominate there you should move on to more challenges...This model that we've had in North America for too too long has to change for the betterment of the players...You are right I'm no scout but I have some hockey sense and it says you get better by playing against better competition

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01-29-2011, 01:35 PM
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The Point was that players outgrow their team and league and should be able to play at a higher level...Schenn played well and even dominated WJC...but really he dominated who...not that I'm slamming Schenn I'm not...the Point is and I'll say it again,once you reach a certain level and dominate there you should move on to more challenges...This model that we've had in North America for too too long has to change for the betterment of the players...You are right I'm no scout but I have some hockey sense and it says you get better by playing against better competition
Yes you are, you're saying that his hockey growth has been affected negatively by returning to Junior. Adversity is never a bad thing to give to players . . especially high draft picks like Schenn. Higher competition does not make you a better player . . if that was the case, Dwight King would be our first line LW

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01-29-2011, 01:44 PM
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Europeans Have Benefitted from Playing In America

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I think it's debateable if it's a step back personally. I think if it is a step back has a lot to do with the players mental make up. At age 19 or 20, every player can still have a lot to work on in their game, especially away from the puck, so go work on that. I don't think Schenn will take a step back having gone back to juniors, because Schenn's mentality is to work and work and work and not get down. If Toffoli has the right attitude, going back to junior isn't the worst thing. Going on some road trip through Europe, where he'd have to adjust to not only a new league and style of play but also a whole new culture, isn't any better in my opinion.
When the Toronto MLeafs made a splash and brought over Swedes BJ Salming and Inge Hammastrom many (NHL)owners including Harold Ballard thought they wouldn't hack it. Almost 40 years later the Europeans have not only come they've benefitted from the experience. They've had to become tougher,rougher and grittier while not giving up their talents and skills. In Canada we've also benefitted fromthe Euros because they taught us to make training,exercise and diet a high priority in all our levels of hockey especially the NHL.
Having Tyler Toffoli go to Europe and play for a club team on athe bigger ice surface would force Toffoli to improve his skating and game. If after a spell he hasn't made the adjustment or what-have-you then the LA Kings would make a decision...does he stay or does he return to more comfortable confines...

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01-29-2011, 01:49 PM
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It seems to have alot to do with the players doesn't it, we get surprised by simmonds making the team after a good junior year, while moller was "nhl ready " that same year and struggled so whats the right answer? Colorado seems to being doing well with reilly and duschene straight off their draft years I believe and yet a kid like martinez has blossomed taking the slower route. It is hard enough to work with and among men when you get out of high school and don't go to college so to play a man's game with the added physical aspects would add to the challenge, having a kid come straight to your team because of the teams short comings would seem detrimental to both

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01-29-2011, 02:09 PM
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I'm Sure Kings Will Be Cautious With Toffoli!

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It seems to have alot to do with the players doesn't it, we get surprised by simmonds making the team after a good junior year, while moller was "nhl ready " that same year and struggled so whats the right answer? Colorado seems to being doing well with reilly and duschene straight off their draft years I believe and yet a kid like martinez has blossomed taking the slower route. It is hard enough to work with and among men when you get out of high school and don't go to college so to play a man's game with the added physical aspects would add to the challenge, having a kid come straight to your team because of the teams short comings would seem detrimental to both
Slow but sure seems the route the Los Angeles Kings are taking with all their prospects which can't be bad. Another year of juniors and maybe one in Manchester to grow into a man won't hurt. It seems more players are lost rushing to get to the NHL rather than asking themselves if they're indeed ready. Peter Forsberg and Teemu Selanne waited and waited and waited and look what it did for their careers...Forsberg waited 3 1/2 years while Selanne waited 4 years before turning pro in North America...older,wiser,stronger,faster and ready...Allstars when they arrived and allstars at the end...

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01-29-2011, 02:43 PM
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Yes you are, you're saying that his hockey growth has been affected negatively by returning to Junior. Adversity is never a bad thing to give to players . . especially high draft picks like Schenn. Higher competition does not make you a better player . . if that was the case, Dwight King would be our first line LW
I'm saying playing in a league way below you effects your development. Playing in an A-league where you should be playing in a AA-league hinders development...As for Dwight King he was drafted for his size and fighting abilities and not so much for his skill though he's not that bad there...he could be the size guy on the fourth line LW in two years time

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01-29-2011, 03:13 PM
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He might get a few NHL games in at the beginning of next season, anything beyond that is very much a long shot.

He'll also get time with Manchester in the playoffs (if eligible).

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01-29-2011, 04:02 PM
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AStammer7, please stop starting threads

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01-29-2011, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AStammer7 View Post
Going back to juniors might be step backwards if he starts to learn some bad habits which could happen...Playing against men would force Toffoli to get better and stronger in a hurry. It could also force him to play a different game from his sniper role too...which might be a negative since the Kings like the way he scores. My point is... Think of the developing junior-college leagues as A-ball, AHL as AA-ball,Europe as AAA-ball and the NHL as you know...
If you are so mentally weak that going back to juniors teaches you bad habits that you absorb, then maybe playing in the best league on earth isn't the right fit for you either. I mean the mental aspect of the game is a huge thing and if a guy like Toffoli can't keep focused for a year on a big prize and would rather chase girls and try and be a puck hog, then maybe he doesn't fit here.

A chance to be an NHL regular earning millions is more than enough incentive to get better and stronger in a hurry, and do we really want a different game from him? We drafted him for a reason, why change what he's about afterwards? Unless there is something that only a Euro league can teach him, why send him there. In addition, I doubt he gets top minutes in all situations in aEuro league, unlike in the CHL where he'll be getting 20-245 minutes a game, playing PP and PK, out in the final minutes of games and given a great chance to play on the international stage at the WJC.

As well, sorry, I don't think Europe is better than the AHL, or teams would be willing to send a lot of their guys there. They want them learning the NA game, and that isn't learned in Europe. How many guys get assigned to Europe by their NHL teams? Seemingly, only the ones they don't want (IE Huet).


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01-29-2011, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AStammer7 View Post
When the Toronto MLeafs made a splash and brought over Swedes BJ Salming and Inge Hammastrom many (NHL)owners including Harold Ballard thought they wouldn't hack it. Almost 40 years later the Europeans have not only come they've benefitted from the experience. They've had to become tougher,rougher and grittier while not giving up their talents and skills. In Canada we've also benefitted fromthe Euros because they taught us to make training,exercise and diet a high priority in all our levels of hockey especially the NHL.
Having Tyler Toffoli go to Europe and play for a club team on athe bigger ice surface would force Toffoli to improve his skating and game. If after a spell he hasn't made the adjustment or what-have-you then the LA Kings would make a decision...does he stay or does he return to more comfortable confines...
And how long was Salming here? Like 20 years? He came to NA to learn the NA game and play his career in NA playing the NA game. You are suggesting Toffoli goes to Europe for one year and then come back. And playing on the bigger ice surface doesn't help at the NHL level. He'd ghave to adjust to the European ice size, only to readjust back to NA size. Where's the benefit in that? That's just needless tinkering with a guys game at a time when clearly his game is progressing forward very well.

Think of it like this, if sending prospects from NA to Europe to play was a good development choice, wouldn't a lot of teams done this by now?

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01-29-2011, 04:49 PM
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I'm saying playing in a league way below you effects your development. Playing in an A-league where you should be playing in a AA-league hinders development...As for Dwight King he was drafted for his size and fighting abilities and not so much for his skill though he's not that bad there...he could be the size guy on the fourth line LW in two years time
I remember watching a clip on one of the Rock em sock'em videos Don Cherry does about 10 years ago on kid development. Like him or hate him, but Cherry has some good basic knowledge and he gave an example on this very subject.

There was a goalie who was at a kids camp he was involved in. This kid was ripping it up, shutting everyone out, making big saves, everything. The kids' mom ragged on Cherry game after game after game to get the kid up against kids a year or two older "for development."

Cherry argued with her, telling her the kid was doing well where he was, he was gaining confidence and, most importantly, having fun. Eventually though the mom pushed the issue and got the kid moved up a level.

The kid played one game, got shelled for 10 goals and pulled. Even though he went down again after the game to the level he had been at, he wasn't the same, as that mental mystique was gone. He lost his swagger, his confidence and even at that lower level he wasn't anything above average for the rest of camp.

The same thing can be risked with Toffoli. He's ripping it up right now and full of confidence, but physically, he's not on the same level as a 31 year old defenseman. You stick his out there against a guy like that at 19, you run the risk of ruining that confidence. Add in that he would be getting a lot less ice time and be at a level two or three times as high, not to mention playing on a significantly different ice surface, and you run a lot more risk of damaging his career than having him spend an extra year in juniors scoring a goal a game.

Why take the risk? Leyt him play big minutes, let him score big goals, let him work on his strength, his conditioning, his stamina, his defenseive game, his play in pressure situations and try and land a spot on the big stage at the WJC's. A lot of kids with big numbers went back to play again in junior and done well.

It's for situations like these where you fall back on your scouting of the kid and his mental strength. If the kid is weak, you maybe do something drastic, but if not, then you leave him in juniors. DL and his crew I think strive for guys with great mental character and he'll be back in juniors or have a great camp and make the NHL. Nothing else.

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01-29-2011, 05:04 PM
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You all know the Kings prefer these kids to play at least one season in Manchester. I don't think we should look for any kid in juniors to make the team next season with the possible exception of Schenn.
^ This /thread

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01-29-2011, 05:53 PM
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Detroit should be a great example on how to develop prospects, and rushing players into the NHL isn't what they do

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01-29-2011, 05:58 PM
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I can tell you right now that TT is nowhere near NHL ready, ya he is leading the OHL in points but he's still got to round his game out, another year in Ottawa after this will help him and then he'll be able to either crack the lineup in 2012 or play for Manchester. Next year he'll be a star on the Canadian WJC team too, along with Weal
This

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01-29-2011, 07:44 PM
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Toffoli will be on this team when he legitimately takes one of the top two left wing slots. Until then, he's a junior scoring sensation. That's nice to have, but after getting burned by Kevin Brown, Jared Aulin, and Yanick Lehoux I'll refrain from getting more than cautiously optimistic. He's an NHLer when he can consistently play an NHL-quality game against NHLers, not until then. Please, let's stop with the overhyping, this poor kid is going to have to break Gretzky's single-season goal record in his rookie season or else people on this board will call him a bust.

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01-30-2011, 01:20 PM
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Toffoli Is A RWer

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Toffoli will be on this team when he legitimately takes one of the top two left wing slots. Until then, he's a junior scoring sensation. That's nice to have, but after getting burned by Kevin Brown, Jared Aulin, and Yanick Lehoux I'll refrain from getting more than cautiously optimistic. He's an NHLer when he can consistently play an NHL-quality game against NHLers, not until then. Please, let's stop with the overhyping, this poor kid is going to have to break Gretzky's single-season goal record in his rookie season or else people on this board will call him a bust.
Tyler Toffoli has played Centre and RWing. He'll make Kings as a RWinger I believe. As for getting burned by KBrown,JAulin,and YLehoux...well I don't think Brown was that good,his mates on the Junior Production Line(THarvey,BWren) really carried him. As for Lehoux he had it but then got hurt and never did regain it...isn't he playing in Russia or someplace...heard Aulin is making a come-back of sorts...Toffoli is going to be a good player for us. I see him as a replacement for JWilliams when his scoring starts to taper off...in 3 years time...

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01-30-2011, 01:39 PM
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Tyler Toffoli has played Centre and RWing. He'll make Kings as a RWinger I believe. As for getting burned by KBrown,JAulin,and YLehoux...well I don't think Brown was that good,his mates on the Junior Production Line(THarvey,BWren) really carried him. As for Lehoux he had it but then got hurt and never did regain it...isn't he playing in Russia or someplace...heard Aulin is making a come-back of sorts...Toffoli is going to be a good player for us. I see him as a replacement for JWilliams when his scoring starts to taper off...in 3 years time...
It was Bob Wren and Pat Peake who Brown played with most.

As well, we need to resign Williams before Toffoli can be his long-term replacement.

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01-30-2011, 04:42 PM
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I can tell you right now that TT is nowhere near NHL ready, ya he is leading the OHL in points but he's still got to round his game out, another year in Ottawa after this will help him and then he'll be able to either crack the lineup in 2012 or play for Manchester. Next year he'll be a star on the Canadian WJC team too, along with Weal
Exactly right

I wouldn't expect TT to see the NHL no matter the circumstances until after next season if not two more. His hands are ready but the rest of his game needs time. No reason to rush him.

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