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01-30-2011, 06:37 PM
  #376
lancer247
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, that's not splitting hairs. There's a MASSIVE difference between running a multi-million dollar business and being the GM of a sports team.

If you want to argue that being a GM is a difficult job, go for it... but don't suggest there isn't significant difference between what Holmgren does and is responsible for, and what Lukko does and is responsible for.

Even in a setup like NJ, where Lou has a lot more power than Holmren... he isn't the COO.
Ah, yeah it is in this sense. Homer runs the team. He selects the talent, the coaches, and the scouts based on his the given dollars he is allowed to spend. Does he select the marketing vendors, negotiate ad pricing, or negotiate the contracts with Aramark, no, however he runs the Flyers Hockey Club.

The controller of a bank runs bank. Doesn't mean he write whatever checks he wants. That's signed ofF on by a CFO but the controller makes the day to day decisions based on approved budgets and an action plan.

Similarly, Homer runs the Flyers. Does he run major decisions by Pete? Yes, but he isn't getting permission to send players up or down, trade players, or draft players, etc.

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01-30-2011, 06:46 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I'll never forgive that piece of garbage for doing that either. Clarke gave Primeau an out when he told him that doctors would never clear Primeau to play again. He knew that going into the summer yet he still tried to find a way to get back. He handcuffed the team and the team ended up losing it's most important defenseman in Kim Johnsson as a result. The team couldn't sign any free agents either because Mellon Head wasn't sure if he was going to attempt a come back or not.

I'm so glad that locker room rat is gone from this organization and he's nothing more than an after thought. Biggest piece of garbage ever to play hockey. Burned bridges with every organization he ever played for.
Kim Johnsson was not brought back because he himself had not recovered from PCS... and he wanted a giant contract without any assurance that he wasn't in fact in the same exact boat as Primeau was... Clarke was not willing to give him that huge contract and IMO expected Kim to lower as other teams also resisted. Minnesota signed Johnsson and took the chance.

There was a chance that the concussion Kim had that he was unable to recover from during the season and postseason would have carried and forever effected his play, just as the PCS brought Primeau down.

I'd say that if Primeau retired the second he was concussed that last time, Clarke would still have not paid the Kim that had not returned what he wanted... and Kim wasn't going to lower his demands. Blame Minny, not Primeau.

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01-31-2011, 03:17 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, here you run into a problem. GMs do not run a multi-million dollar business. They run the team.



He runs a multi-million dollar business.



Hockey is a major hobby in my life, but if it disappeared tomorrow it would not materially affect my life. It's entertaining and fun, that's it. That isn't a considerably impact on my life, it's something I watch on TV and chat on a message board about.
Thanks for the update jester. I am glad I did not quit my day job.

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01-31-2011, 05:26 AM
  #379
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Yeah Kim's brain was also scrambled eggs, he wasn't worth the money (he is still out with PCS now)

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01-31-2011, 09:26 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
Ah, yeah it is in this sense. Homer runs the team. He selects the talent, the coaches, and the scouts based on his the given dollars he is allowed to spend. Does he select the marketing vendors, negotiate ad pricing, or negotiate the contracts with Aramark, no, however he runs the Flyers Hockey Club.

The controller of a bank runs bank. Doesn't mean he write whatever checks he wants. That's signed ofF on by a CFO but the controller makes the day to day decisions based on approved budgets and an action plan.

Similarly, Homer runs the Flyers. Does he run major decisions by Pete? Yes, but he isn't getting permission to send players up or down, trade players, or draft players, etc.
Which is a completely and utterly different job from running a multi-million dollar business. It's making roster moves on a sports team. Paul Holmgren does not run the Flyers from a business perspective... at all. He doesn't even have the president tag (which a fair number of GMs have), Lukko does.

The Flyers Hockey Club isn't a "business" it's a hockey club... that is part of a business.

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01-31-2011, 09:27 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Thanks for the update jester. I am glad I did not quit my day job.
Ha... yeah, you could also cop to the fact that the central premise of your point was flat wrong.

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Yeah Kim's brain was also scrambled eggs, he wasn't worth the money (he is still out with PCS now)
He continued to be a good player in Minnesota after that.

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01-31-2011, 09:39 AM
  #382
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He continued to be a good player in Minnesota after that.
Yes, but at the time, giving him a shiny new expensive contract would have been a very bad decision, considering no one knew how/if/when he'd return to form. Minnesota took a big risk, and it worked out.

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01-31-2011, 09:49 AM
  #383
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I loved KJ, but I wouldn't sign him after sitting out half a year with a concussion, then asking for 4+ million on a long term deal. Maybe on a more cap friendly deal, but still.

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01-31-2011, 09:50 AM
  #384
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Yes, but at the time, giving him a shiny new expensive contract would have been a very bad decision, considering no one knew how/if/when he'd return to form. Minnesota took a big risk, and it worked out.
This is true, but we have to be clear that his current PCS problems are distinct from the ones he was having back then.

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01-31-2011, 09:55 AM
  #385
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I don't believe that any 2 PCS are independent. each concussion puts you at much greater risk for another one

I never meant to imply that he missed from 06-07 to now with PCS

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01-31-2011, 10:01 AM
  #386
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I don't believe that any 2 PCS are independent. each concussion puts you at much greater risk for another one
Agreed, and each subsequent concussion can be more severe than the prior one. But Jester is right in that KJ was symptom free and playing very well for Minnesota for a while.

I'm completely fine with the Flyers not offering him the contract that he wanted, considering the price, his health at the time, and the potential for future concussions.

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01-31-2011, 11:10 AM
  #387
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Yes, but at the time, giving him a shiny new expensive contract would have been a very bad decision, considering no one knew how/if/when he'd return to form. Minnesota took a big risk, and it worked out.
The thing even about that is that he was mis-used. A top offensive defenseman was used in a total shutdown role, and as a result was never as good as his contract. Typical Lemaire.

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01-31-2011, 11:23 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
The thing even about that is that he was mis-used. A top offensive defenseman was used in a total shutdown role, and as a result was never as good as his contract. Typical Lemaire.
The thing about that is over reliance on offensive totals for worth of contract... especially when talking about someone who was as good defensively as KJ was. They also didn't really have the talent up front to score a lot of goals, so they needed to clamp down pretty hard.

People like to rip Lemaire for those teams, but he didn't have a lot of choice given the forward group they had as a whole... and a team that was built around a forward who may or may not be there any given week due to his groin.

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01-31-2011, 01:06 PM
  #389
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Which is why I would rather Carle be good defensively than put up the points he does

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01-31-2011, 01:12 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The thing about that is over reliance on offensive totals for worth of contract... especially when talking about someone who was as good defensively as KJ was. They also didn't really have the talent up front to score a lot of goals, so they needed to clamp down pretty hard.

People like to rip Lemaire for those teams, but he didn't have a lot of choice given the forward group they had as a whole... and a team that was built around a forward who may or may not be there any given week due to his groin.
Lemaire didn't have the horses, but Lemaire was an old-NHL coach whose ways were outdated, and that's why the Wild never went anywhere. Good coaches are supposed to use the abilities of their defenseman, and despite not having forwards, that still didn't happen for Johnsson.

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01-31-2011, 01:27 PM
  #391
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Bringing all this KJ discussing into context: At that point in time the Flyers were still stinging from key players lost to concussions and subsequent PCS... Lindros was out during a major SC push, as well as other points, and Primeau the captain and team leader was battling and losing to PCS... Kim went down and IIRC could not recover for the final postseason of his contract.

Before KJ could return to the ice symptoms free and prove he could play that way his contract lapsed and he demanded #1 D-man dollars in the Cap Era... Clarke leery about dealing with another key player having continuing PSC problems did not want to sign Kim for what he wanted... and Kim didn't have to worry about lowering his demands once Minny came calling with their contract in hand.

If Primeau was in any way involved it was in that he suffered from PCS, as did Lindros and KJ.... and that unfortunate circumstance added to Clarke's being cautious with his Cap dollars when it came to another key player with PCS... Keith's attempts to return to his team did not preclude Clarke's signing Kim, and IMO it is unfair to attack Primeau for his unwillingness to give up without exhausting all avenues.

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01-31-2011, 01:44 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Bringing all this KJ discussing into context: At that point in time the Flyers were still stinging from key players lost to concussions and subsequent PCS... Lindros was out during a major SC push, as well as other points, and Primeau the captain and team leader was battling and losing to PCS... Kim went down and IIRC could not recover for the final postseason of his contract.

Before KJ could return to the ice symptoms free and prove he could play that way his contract lapsed and he demanded #1 D-man dollars in the Cap Era... Clarke leery about dealing with another key player having continuing PSC problems did not want to sign Kim for what he wanted... and Kim didn't have to worry about lowering his demands once Minny came calling with their contract in hand.

If Primeau was in any way involved it was in that he suffered from PCS, as did Lindros and KJ.... and that unfortunate circumstance added to Clarke's being cautious with his Cap dollars when it came to another key player with PCS... Keith's attempts to return to his team did not preclude Clarke's signing Kim, and IMO it is unfair to attack Primeau for his unwillingness to give up without exhausting all avenues.
The real problem in addressing the Primeau situation is focusing on KJ (I understand why, but it's a red herring). The real problem was that they couldn't sign anyone to fill the voids left on that roster following that season, and that's a big reason why the team cratered the way it did.

In reality, not the worst thing in the world. Richard, Carter, Umberger, etc. all got a lot of ice time because of that roster, which helped them out. And now you have JVR on this team because of that year (it pays to suck when you're rebuilding).

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01-31-2011, 02:05 PM
  #393
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The real problem in addressing the Primeau situation is focusing on KJ (I understand why, but it's a red herring). The real problem was that they couldn't sign anyone to fill the voids left on that roster following that season, and that's a big reason why the team cratered the way it did.

In reality, not the worst thing in the world. Richard, Carter, Umberger, etc. all got a lot of ice time because of that roster, which helped them out. And now you have JVR on this team because of that year (it pays to suck when you're rebuilding).
Yes, all is well that ends well.

I cannot prove it but believe that had KJ been healthy and sought a reasonable contract Clarke would have signed him... but a healthy Kim may have meant no Kimmo, even if all else stayed the same.

I find it hard to slap the selfish tag on Primeau after all he gave to the Flyers... I agree much of his sticking with the battle had to do with his not wanting to stop his playing life -- as was all his foolishly playing through PCS in past concussions -- but IMO what he and JR did to come back for the prior postseason that took them to the ECF was nothing short of being ultimate team players... JR seems to not be effected by all his concussions while Keith like Lindros was greatly effected. IMO a huge portion of Keith's fight was for his team.

After that great PO march where they fell a goal short of the SCF with a severely banged up team Primeau was at the height of his worth and marketability... He could have entered the open market and been overpaid -- forgetting for the moment the Lockout and new CBA rules -- Instead Keith, against the NHLPA's insistence otherwise, took a below market contract so the team would not be strapped... In prior seasons he and Recchi deferred cash so Clarke could sign other players. Keith Primeau was NOT a selfish player... He took well to the Flyers Organization and had a great relationship with them as they showed mutual respect, and had none of the problems he had with his previous organizations.

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01-31-2011, 02:12 PM
  #394
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Yes, all is well that ends well.

I cannot prove it but believe that had KJ been healthy and sought a reasonable contract Clarke would have signed him... but a healthy Kim may have meant no Kimmo, even if all else stayed the same.

I find it hard to slap the selfish tag on Primeau after all he gave to the Flyers... I agree much of his sticking with the battle had to do with his not wanting to stop his playing life -- as was all his foolishly playing through PCS in past concussions -- but IMO what he and JR did to come back for the prior postseason that took them to the ECF was nothing short of being ultimate team players... JR seems to not be effected by all his concussions while Keith like Lindros was greatly effected. IMO a huge portion of Keith's fight was for his team.

After that great PO march where they fell a goal short of the SCF with a severely banged up team Primeau was at the height of his worth and marketability... He could have entered the open market and been overpaid -- forgetting for the moment the Lockout and new CBA rules -- Instead Keith, against the NHLPA's insistence otherwise, took a below market contract so the team would not be strapped... In prior seasons he and Recchi deferred cash so Clarke could sign other players. Keith Primeau was NOT a selfish player... He took well to the Flyers Organization and had a great relationship with them as they showed mutual respect, and had none of the problems he had with his previous organizations.
I have no problems with Primeau. BCF16 always has.

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01-31-2011, 02:43 PM
  #395
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I have no problems with Primeau. BCF16 always has.
Sorry, I wasn't really addressing all that at you... I was actually still going off at that earlier post by him that was IMO very harsh and totally unfair. You were an innocent bystander. haha

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