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Who can the Flames really target this offseason?

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Old
01-31-2011, 01:27 PM
  #51
LeftCoast
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
It woudl take much longer than 2 years for the players you've listed to develop into full time NHLers capable of carrying a team into the playoffs. The only way that plan works is if you do some amazing work on the free agent market.
Yes - but moving Iginla ($7M) and Regehr ($4M) gives them $11M in cap space with EVERYONE on the team EXCEPT Stajan, Bourque, Bouwmeester, Giordano and Kipper hitting UFA status in the next 2 years. So, by moving Iginla and Regehr, reloading with top tier prospects and picks, and having $30M in cap space freed up over the next 2 years, they can (and should) rebuild. You can get a lot of free agents for $30M.

And as far as the prospects go, Backlund and Hickey are pretty much NHL ready now. Nemisz, Erixon and Ashton (most likely prospect from Tampa) are probably 1 - 2 years away.

If you get 3 firsts this year, you will have 1 in the top 10 (Calgary w/o Iginla and Regehr), 1 in the 18-20 range (LA with Iginla) and 1 in the 26-30 range (Tampa with Regehr). With those picks you can either trade up and get the most NHL ready prospect on the table, or pick 3 solid players who will make in impact in 1 - 3 years.


Last edited by LeftCoast: 01-31-2011 at 01:33 PM.
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01-31-2011, 01:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Yes - but moving Iginla ($7M) and Regehr ($4M) gives them $11M in cap space with EVERYONE on the team EXCEPT Stajan, Bourque, Bouwmeester, Giordano and Kipper hitting UFA status in the next 2 years. So, by moving Iginla and Regehr, reloading with top tier prospects and picks, and having $30M in cap space freed up over the next 2 years, they can (and should) rebuild. You can get a lot of free agents for $30M.

And as far as the prospects go, Backlund and Hickey are pretty much NHL ready now. Nemisz, Erixon and Ashton (most likely prospect from Tampa) are probably 1 - 2 years away.

If you get 3 firsts this year, you will have 1 in the top 10 (Calgary w/o Iginla and Regehr), 1 in the 18-20 range (LA with Iginla) and 1 in the 26-30 range (Tampa with Regehr). With those picks you can either trade up and get the most NHL ready prospect on the table, or pick 3 solid players who will make in impact in 1 - 3 years.
Is moving Iginla really necessary in this sceneario? Wouldn't the 23 million in cap space be enough?

The Flames also would have much more than 30 milliion if they moved both Regehr and Iginla. Assuming no huge pickups this offseason, the only players they have signed in that scenario are Stajan, Bourque, Giordano, JBo, and Kipper.

So basically what I am saying is that cap space is not an issue for the Flames going into the future. Moving Iggy to free up cap space is ridiculous, sicne the Flames don't need it.

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01-31-2011, 01:55 PM
  #53
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Is moving Iginla really necessary in this sceneario? Wouldn't the 23 million in cap space be enough?

The Flames also would have much more than 30 milliion if they moved both Regehr and Iginla. Assuming no huge pickups this offseason, the only players they have signed in that scenario are Stajan, Bourque, Giordano, JBo, and Kipper.

So basically what I am saying is that cap space is not an issue for the Flames going into the future. Moving Iggy to free up cap space is ridiculous, sicne the Flames don't need it.
You move Iggy because it accelerates the rebuilt. Not only do you get the $7M in cap space, to a play-off bound team he is probably worth a first round pick and a quality prospect.

The Flames are not going to be competitive for 2-3 years. Not many elite players have had a late career resurgence after 33 or 34 and their production has tailed off. Iginla has maybe 2-3 years of high level hockey left in him. Every year that his production declines, the return on Iginla diminishes. I think if Feaster gave Jerome the option of being traded to an up an coming team like the Kings where he would likely have Kopitar as his center and Doughty / Johnson on the point, he would readily waive his NTC rather than baby sit a rebuilding Flames team with no talent to work with.

The only reason to keep him around would be to lead / mentor the next batch of young stars. But if you don't trade him, there won't be enough talent for him to mentor.

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01-31-2011, 01:59 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
You move Iggy because it accelerates the rebuilt. Not only do you get the $7M in cap space, to a play-off bound team he is probably worth a first round pick and a quality prospect.

The Flames are not going to be competitive for 2-3 years. Not many elite players have had a late career resurgence after 33 or 34 and their production has tailed off. Iginla has maybe 2-3 years of high level hockey left in him. Every year that his production declines, the return on Iginla diminishes. I think if Feaster gave Jerome the option of being traded to an up an coming team like the Kings where he would likely have Kopitar as his center and Doughty / Johnson on the point, he would readily waive his NTC rather than baby sit a rebuilding Flames team with no talent to work with.

The only reason to keep him around would be to lead / mentor the next batch of young stars. But if you don't trade him, there won't be enough talent for him to mentor.
The Flames are better off keeping Iginla, even if he is declining, if the price is a mid-late first and a mid-level prospect. Unless Iginla, or a package containing him, brings you a young first liner or a prospect likely to develop into that, you keep him.

Your suggestion of Thomas Hickey and a 1st is abysmal. Thomas Hickey is looking like he may never develop into an NHL player, let alone a 1st. Schenn is the only prospect that the Kings have that makes an Iginla move worth it. If Schenn is not available then they keep Iggy.

Edit: I also saw you suggested Forbort....He would be way behind on the Flames depth chart. They just jetisoned Aulie, who is a better prospect, what possible need do the Flames have for another mediocre defensive prospect?


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01-31-2011, 02:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
The Flames are better off keeping Iginla, even if he is declining, if the price is a mid-late first and a mid-level prospect. Unless Iginla, or a package containing him, brings you a young first liner or a prospect likely to develop into that, you keep him.

Your suggestion of Thomas Hickey and a 1st is abysmal. Thomas Hickey is looking like he may never develop into an NHL player, let alone a 1st. Schenn is the only prospect that the Kings have that makes an Iginla move worth it. If Schenn is not available then they keep Iggy.
To what end would they keep Iginla? To babysit a team that is poorly composed and lacks both talent and draft picks?

I did say Hickey or Frobort. Maybe Voynov if you want a more offensive d-man. LA is loaded with young D prospects.

Further, Iginla, due to his age and cap hit is not going to get you an elite prospect (Schenn) AND a first round pick. You wouldn't get Schenn for Iginla straight up - think of it in terms of 15 years of increasing production versus 3 years of declining production. In the summer, Iginla will return even less. Next year at the deadline, unless he has a resurgence and is on a PPG pace, you will be lucky to get a first.


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Old
01-31-2011, 02:20 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
To what end would they keep Iginla? To babysit a team that is poorly composed and lacks both talent and draft picks?

I did say Hickey or Frobort. Maybe Voynov if you want a more offensive d-man. LA is loaded with young D prospects.

Further, Iginla, due to his age and cap hit is not going to get you an elite prospect (Schenn) AND a first round pick. You wouldn't get Schenn for Iginla straight up - think of it in terms of 15 years of increasing production versus 3 years of declining production. In the summer, Iginla will return even less. Next year at the deadline, unless he has a resurgence and is on a PPG pace, you will be lucky to get a first.
Like I said before if Iginla's return is marginal to mediocre prospects, the Flames are better off keeping him. The Flames have Giordano and JBo locked up and many of their own defensie prospects. The Flames don't need LAs. The Flames are fine on defence and for depth forwards for a looooong time. The only need they have is elite scoring talent.

Iginla will probably put up 80-100 goals over the next 3 years. Even if he is declining, the Flames are better off keeping him unless the return is 1st line player or equivalent prospect who is considerably younger. Whoever wants Iginla will most certainly have to sacrifice youth and long term gain for a big short term boost.

You're obviously just a Canucks fan who wants to see the Flames fail as badly as possible.

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01-31-2011, 02:22 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Like I said before if Iginla's return is marginal to mediocre prospects, the Flames are better off keeping him. The Flames have Giordano and JBo locked up and many of their own defensie prospects. The Flames don't need LAs. The Flames are fine on defence and for depth forwards for a looooong time. The only need they have is elite scoring talent.

Iginla will probably put up 80-100 goals over the next 3 years. Even if he is declining, the Flames are better off keeping him unless the return is 1st line player or equivalent prospect who is considerably younger. Whoever wants Iginla will most certainly have to sacrifice youth and long term gain for a big short term boost.

You're obviously just a Canucks fan who wants to see the Flames fail as badly as possible.
If you think Aulie, who was a 4th round pick in 2007 and has had an overage year in junior and 3 years in the AHL to accomplished nothing is a better prospect than Derek Forbort who was #15 overall last year and is in his first year in college, well then I'm not much interested in your opinion on prospects.

And yes, I'm a Canucks fan, but Calgary is hardly even a rivalry any more, so I don't really care if the Flames fail. Welcome to irrelevance and enjoy the stay. Unless you rebuild, it's going to be a while.

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01-31-2011, 02:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Yes - but moving Iginla ($7M) and Regehr ($4M) gives them $11M in cap space with EVERYONE on the team EXCEPT Stajan, Bourque, Bouwmeester, Giordano and Kipper hitting UFA status in the next 2 years. So, by moving Iginla and Regehr, reloading with top tier prospects and picks, and having $30M in cap space freed up over the next 2 years, they can (and should) rebuild. You can get a lot of free agents for $30M.

And as far as the prospects go, Backlund and Hickey are pretty much NHL ready now. Nemisz, Erixon and Ashton (most likely prospect from Tampa) are probably 1 - 2 years away.

If you get 3 firsts this year, you will have 1 in the top 10 (Calgary w/o Iginla and Regehr), 1 in the 18-20 range (LA with Iginla) and 1 in the 26-30 range (Tampa with Regehr). With those picks you can either trade up and get the most NHL ready prospect on the table, or pick 3 solid players who will make in impact in 1 - 3 years.
what good is cap space to sign UFAs if all the top players are signing 6+ year contracts?... looking at the 2012 UFA pool its really not that deep... Beyond Semin, Hemsky, Sharp and maybe Boyes there isn't alot of forward talent available... and will any of them even make it to free agency?

if the Flames decide to dump their top end talent the better time to do it is after this season... try to make a run and if they don't make moves at the draft... Pronger is proof huge returns happen draft day too... not only then could the Flames get picks, they would know where they are... no risk of moving Iginla for a 1st then ends up being 29th or 30th

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01-31-2011, 02:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Then with 3 first round picks, approach June as an opportunity to rebuild. Next year you probably miss (or squeek into) the playoffs, the following year you have a good young team that can compete and a lot of Salary cap space.
This is, unfortunately, the stupid and ignorant belief that plagues these forums. 3 first round picks in a weak draft, and next year the Flames have a chance to make the playoffs? What?

Unless those 3 picks turn out to be a players in the generational talent category, the Flames would miss the playoffs for another 6 years. This is simply not how things work in the NHL.

I've said it many times, these next two drafts are brutal, with potential to be the worst in league history. There has never been a worse time to start a rebuild

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01-31-2011, 02:31 PM
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Like I said before if Iginla's return is marginal to mediocre prospects, the Flames are better off keeping him. The Flames have Giordano and JBo locked up and many of their own defensie prospects. The Flames don't need LAs. The Flames are fine on defence and for depth forwards for a looooong time. The only need they have is elite scoring talent.
You will probably need a goalie soon given Kiprusoff's age, decline and inconsistency.

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01-31-2011, 02:34 PM
  #61
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If you think Aulie, who was a 4th round pick in 2007 and has had an overage year in junior and 3 years in the AHL to accomplished nothing is a better prospect than Derek Forbort who was #15 overall last year and is in his first year in college, well then I'm not much interested in your opinion on prospects.

And yes, I'm a Canucks fan, but Calgary is hardly even a rivalry any more, so I don't really care if the Flames fail. Welcome to irrelevance and enjoy the stay. Unless you rebuild, it's going to be a while.
Forbort remains a massive massive risk for ever making the NHL at this point. If he ever does, it will probably be at least 4 years from now. A prospect like Forbort in no way helps the Flames, who are missing immediate offensive talent, on their rebuild.

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01-31-2011, 02:34 PM
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There has never been a worse time to start a rebuild
Then what should they do? Are you suggesting they should stay the course with the current core?

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01-31-2011, 02:36 PM
  #63
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Then what should they do? Are you suggesting they should stay the course with the current core?
A retool is a vastly superior choice. Keep Iggy unless an elite prospect/young player is coming the other way.

The Flames have been the best team in the Western Conference through the last 10 games. They are tied for the most points and have been beating competitive teams. Things aren't as desperate as you are making them out to be.

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01-31-2011, 02:37 PM
  #64
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This is, unfortunately, the stupid and ignorant belief that plagues these forums. 3 first round picks in a weak draft, and next year the Flames have a chance to make the playoffs? What?

Unless those 3 picks turn out to be a players in the generational talent category, the Flames would miss the playoffs for another 6 years. This is simply not how things work in the NHL.

I've said it many times, these next two drafts are brutal, with potential to be the worst in league history. There has never been a worse time to start a rebuild
Reading difficulties?

3 First round picks this year, and another next.

Add to (quality) prospect pool: Backlund, Nemisz, Erixon + Hickey/Forbort/Voynov + Ashton.

$30M+ in cap space over the next 2 years to work with.

And I didn't say the Flames would be a playoff team again the next year, I said 2 years following this draft. Next year (2012) they would probably still have another top 15 pick.


You don't rebuild a team by finishing between 7th and 12th for each of the next 5 years.

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01-31-2011, 02:41 PM
  #65
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A retool is a vastly superior choice. Keep Iggy unless an elite prospect/young player is coming the other way.

The Flames have been the best team in the Western Conference through the last 10 games. They are tied for the most points and have been beating competitive teams. Things aren't as desperate as you are making them out to be.
They have indeed been doing VERY well recently. However, retooling is not that simple given their CAP, age and other factors.

The likely WORST thing that can happen to this team is they get on a continued roll but just miss out and end up 9th in West. .... or even just squeak in and exit meekly in first round again. Either option only prolongs the inevitable.

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01-31-2011, 02:42 PM
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Ahaha I know. Though they are playing really great hockey as of late, I'd rather them be in a position to draft in the top 10.

People also seem to think that rebuild=instant success. You're basically going to be stuck in the basement until you get really lucky with top end talent.

Philidelphia demonstrated good drafting during their playoff years can still equate to high end talent (van Riemsdyk is their only notable player drafted because they were in the basement, Carter, Richards, Giroux). A good portion of their talent is from trades/signings (Pronger, Briere, Hartnell, Timonen, Zherdev).

Florida is an example of why rebuilding does not always work. Their young core wasn't good enough and thus went to FA or traded (Bouwmeester, Horton).

Rebuilding really only works when you get lucky.
Or your team knows how to draft and develope players properly, unlike Florida... Much like Philadelphia and Detroit.

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01-31-2011, 02:42 PM
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Then what should they do? Are you suggesting they should stay the course with the current core?
It's already been said: re-tool. Besides Iginla, this team's "core" really isn't old. Bouwmeeester and Giordano are young and are great assets to build a team around.

You trade away Iginla, Regehr, etc., and the team loses money. No fan will pay to know that the next 5 seasons are write-offs. Iginla puts fans in the seats. The team would be in serious trouble if they draft more players like Rico Fata in the top 10.

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01-31-2011, 02:55 PM
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Then what should they do? Are you suggesting they should stay the course with the current core?
Stay the course or trade for picks in future drafts. 2011 really is a brutal draft - there's no way around it.

I'd just keep all of the existing picks and pray for some luck. The only one it might make sense to deal is Tanguay since he's an expiring contract. But if they're in a race for a playoff spot that won't happen.

2012 might be better than it looks now but who knows. I still don't like the idea of going after someone like a Richards. Just seems like a waste of money to me.

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01-31-2011, 02:58 PM
  #69
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Way I see it, the only way if Calgary is getting top free agent's is by trading Iginla and Kipper.. With them you trade guy's with huge contracts and that's how you start signing free agent's.. I also hope they sign young guy's instead of old men like Ollie

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01-31-2011, 03:23 PM
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Way I see it, the only way if Calgary is getting top free agent's is by trading Iginla and Kipper.. With them you trade guy's with huge contracts and that's how you start signing free agent's.. I also hope they sign young guy's instead of old men like Ollie
If the Flames plan was to acquire Richards, they would not have to move Iggy or Kipper to do it.

Langkow is done and Kotalik is in the minors. That's 7.5 million right there.

If the goal is to acquire Richards, or an equivalent player, that means winning now. So moving out Iginla and Kipper is a backwards move in that scenario. If the Flame need additional cap space, Sarich, Hagman, or Regeh all make much better candidates for a move.

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01-31-2011, 03:26 PM
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If Richards were to end up signing in Calgary, Jarome Iginla would be one of the biggest reasons why.

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01-31-2011, 03:46 PM
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If Richards were to end up signing in Calgary, Jarome Iginla would be one of the biggest reasons why.
The biggest reason would be Feaster and the $$$$$$$ that he's offering.

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01-31-2011, 03:56 PM
  #73
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The biggest reason would be Feaster and the $$$$$$$ that he's offering.
One of.....I said one of.....not THE reason.

Playing with Jarome is still an appealing option for a UFA, because unlike your typical un-knowing fan, his peers still realize what Iginla is capable of.

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01-31-2011, 04:15 PM
  #74
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Not surprising a Canuck fan wants to see Iginla off the Flames,lol.

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01-31-2011, 04:20 PM
  #75
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Currently according to http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=9 we have 59.4 million tied up on players. If we do not sign our UFA will have only save 3million in cap as we will have already 56 million tied up for next season unless we move some NMC/NTC players to save more money.
Ouch. so essentially what you see now is the product next season. I think Erixon is going to be a solid defender. Bought time you guys jumped on the Swede train!

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