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Amazing Stat (Westgarth)

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Old
01-31-2011, 02:07 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Didn't 66% of them say they were against removing the instigator rule? Where do you stand on that?
The instigator is fine, who wants neanderthals like Westgarth out there starting fights with competent players who actually contribute to the game.

It limited the need for a goon, where as now all they do is fight each other to appease the drunks in the crowd yelling "FIGHT" everytime there is a goalmouth scrum. And now with the post lockout rule changes and league parity they are thankfully starting to remove goons like Westgarth completely.

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01-31-2011, 02:08 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Johnny,

I know about 4 other people have asked you and you haven't answered so this is probably a reach.

But if the Kings players play so much better with Westgarth in the lineup like you claim, how do you explain the drastically better record with him in the pressbox?
Dude, I don't care about the record, that's a lame stat. It's knowing that guys have your back and Kopitar and Doughty feel protected and that Brown can throw the body like he does and not have to worry about retaliation. The players don't feel intimidated or are pushed around. That is not a stat you find on paper.

Over the past few years players on this Kings team have talked about the importance of Ivanans and Westgarth in various interviews....so you must know something I don't. It's not a stat, it's a feeling they have of security when they step on the ice.

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01-31-2011, 02:11 PM
  #78
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Record is a lame stat?

I don't even know how to reply to that.

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01-31-2011, 02:13 PM
  #79
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It is. It proves nothing. Intimidation cannot be chalked up to a win or a loss. You can play tough and still lose...and you still can still win and get creamed and have dudes holding ice packs to there faces and bodies after a game.

Best team in the NHL right, the Flyers...Shelley, Carcillo, Hartnell, Pronger, O'Donnell....all tough. Shelley is playing every game. They never get run out of there own building or anyone else's.

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01-31-2011, 02:16 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
It is. It proves nothing. Intimidation cannot be chalked up to a win or a loss. You can play tough and still lose...and you still can still win and get creamed and have dudes holding ice packs to there faces and bodies after a game.
I don't even like Herby, But I have to agree with him here. The record speaks for itself. If it was one or two games you might have a leg to stand on.

But that record is very telling, Johnny......You're really grasping at straws bro.

All those guys you just listed HAVE SKILL.

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01-31-2011, 02:16 PM
  #81
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So you would rather be a tough loser, sacrifice missing the playoffs just to have Westgarth in the lineup?

Am I correct in saying that, because it sure seems that way.

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01-31-2011, 02:18 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Personally, I agree with the other 34% because I think without the instigator the players would be able to police themselves and the Cooke's of the world wouldn't be able to run around. You would also have less staged fights, BUT you might have more fights in general because if your star player gets leveled, someone could come to the aid and get the same 5 as the dude who hit him and decided to fight.

I see why the league wants the instigator though, to curb fighting and stop it from becoming like it was in the 80's and 90's.
66% of the players want it so your opinion doesn't mean ****, because a majority of the players in the game disagree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Over the past few years players on this Kings team have talked about the importance of Ivanans and Westgarth in various interviews....so you must know something I don't. It's not a stat, it's a feeling they have of security when they step on the ice.
What would you expect them to say? They are being asked about a player do you think they are going to say he is worthless? Come on dude. I'm not trying to argue otherwise but to use that as a basis is a little ridiculous. Terry Murray is an old school coach. He is one that appreciates an enforcer in the line up. Even Terry has decided not to dress Westgarth for plenty of nights. Clearly the need to get points in the standings has outweighed anything Kevin Westgarth is providing.

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01-31-2011, 02:22 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Best team in the NHL right, the Flyers...Shelley, Carcillo, Hartnell, Pronger, O'Donnell....all tough. Shelley is playing every game. They never get run out of there own building or anyone else's.
That is great but the Kings aren't the FIRST PLACE Flyers. The Kings NEED points in the standings and Westgarth in the line up is not giving them their best chance to win. When the Kings have the talent/depth to win games while Jody (that is a girls name btw) Shelley or the equivalent is in the line up, great. They don't have that right now.

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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
So you would rather be a tough loser, sacrifice missing the playoffs just to have Westgarth in the lineup?
It is bat **** crazy.

You know I actually agree with a lot of what he says but the bottom line is the Kings need points in the standings and old school Terry has all but given up on Westgarth at this point so that should tell you everything you need to know.

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01-31-2011, 02:43 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Dude, I don't care about the record, that's a lame stat.


Early candidate for post of the year.

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01-31-2011, 02:52 PM
  #85
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fighting>winning


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01-31-2011, 04:01 PM
  #86
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Are we arguing whether Westy should be playing from here on out because we are in need of points or the validity of fighting altogether? I will agree the Kings need 4 balanced lines right now (though it pains me to say), but I DISAGREE that fighting should be removed.

Again Buddy, 98% of the players agree with that second part.

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01-31-2011, 04:16 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Are we arguing whether Westy should be playing from here on out because we are in need of points or the validity of fighting altogether? I will agree the Kings need 4 balanced lines right now (though it pains me to say), but I DISAGREE that fighting should be removed.

Again Buddy, 98% of the players agree with that second part.
Nobody is saying fighting should be removed. We're saying Kevin Westgarth should be removed because he's not good at HOCKEY. (I think MMA might be more up your alley)

Especially when we have Clifford, Simmonds, Mitchell, and Greene who can all handle the fighting business when its necessary.

HOWEVER.. To be fair to Johnny.. Westy DID make a REALLY nice breakout pass to Lee Stempniak for the Coyotes' second goal when we played them at home recently.

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01-31-2011, 04:18 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by two out of three View Post
Nobody is saying fighting should be removed. We're saying Kevin Westgarth should be removed because he's not good at HOCKEY. (I think MMA might be more up your alley)

Especially when we have Clifford, Simmonds, Mitchell, and Greene who can all handle the fighting business when its necessary.

HOWEVER.. To be fair to Johnny.. Westy DID make a REALLY nice breakout pass to Lee Stempniak for the Coyotes' second goal when we played them at home recently.
What are you talking about? 2 posts from yesterday said they wanted fighting to be removed. Read before you comment.

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01-31-2011, 04:21 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
What are you talking about? 2 posts from yesterday said they wanted fighting to be removed. Read before you comment.
Make sure you bypass the rest of the valid points.

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01-31-2011, 04:21 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Are we arguing whether Westy should be playing from here on out because we are in need of points or the validity of fighting altogether? I will agree the Kings need 4 balanced lines right now (though it pains me to say), but I DISAGREE that fighting should be removed.
I guess it depends on who you ask. I was sticking with the topic of the thread (the Kings record w/ Westgarth in the line up) and I guess some people here are arguing the merits of fighting. You won't hear my arguing against fighting. However, when the team desperately needs the points in the standings, dressing an enforcer should not be a priority. That is all I have been saying all along.

Could the record be coincidence? Sure, I suppose. But most of us watching Westgarth play could see that it quite possibly is not. Westgarth is basically Ivanans with higher education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Again Buddy, 98% of the players agree with that second part.
And 66% agree with the instigator rule... which you don't. By your calculations, your opinion doesn't mean **** because the players don't agree.

I'm just being a wise ass because of you earlier comment.

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01-31-2011, 04:25 PM
  #91
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Vancouver isn't dressing Rick Rypien every night and they seem to be doing just fine.

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01-31-2011, 04:38 PM
  #92
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Vancouver is dressing Glass, Volpatti, Kesler, Burrows, Bolduc, Bieska, Torres, and Alberts...that is a combination of a lot of toughness that beats Clifford, Simmonds and just Greene.

That's 8 guys who have fought and can fight versus our 3.

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01-31-2011, 04:38 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by two out of three View Post
Vancouver isn't dressing Rick Rypien every night and they seem to be doing just fine.
I could very well be wrong but it seems to me that most (not all) of the teams that start an enforcer regularly are bottomfeeders or teams with young players to protect. And that makes sense because they are probably in a lot more blowouts where things can get out of hand.

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01-31-2011, 04:43 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I could very well be wrong but it seems to me that most (not all) of the teams that start an enforcer regularly are bottomfeeders or teams with young players to protect. And that makes sense because they are probably in a lot more blowouts where things can get out of hand.
You are wrong.

Jody Shelley - 44 games played (was suspended 2x)
Krys Barch - 30 games (was injured)
Shawn Thornton - 50 games
George Parros - 51 games
Mike Rupp - 49 games / Deryk Engelland - 37 games

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01-31-2011, 05:42 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Dude, I don't care about the record, that's a lame stat. It's knowing that guys have your back and Kopitar and Doughty feel protected and that Brown can throw the body like he does and not have to worry about retaliation.
... It's only a lame stat if it doesn't support your opinion. You can continue to ignore the fact that Doughty and Brown play better without Westgarth in the lineup; that's your choice. I hope that the coach of the team doesn't ignore it, though. You can say all you want about this player said and that player said they feel "protected" out there, but what in the hell would you expect them to say? "Uhh yeah Patrick, honestly Kevin does nothing for us and it's obvious that he can't play at all so you might want to ask the coach why he's out there and we're playing a man short because I don't make those decisions." Probably not gonna say that publicly, huh?

For the record, I'm not one that wants to remove fighting from the game. I'm saying that it is useless in this day and age with the instigator rule in place (and not going away anytime soon) to waste a spot in the lineup on someone who can't play NHL-level hockey. It's clear Westgarth can't, so he shouldn't be in there. Period.

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01-31-2011, 05:51 PM
  #96
Johnny Utah
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So if Westgarth could play "at this level," can he still play and fight on this Kings team?

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01-31-2011, 06:02 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... It's only a lame stat if it doesn't support your opinion. You can continue to ignore the fact that Doughty and Brown play better without Westgarth in the lineup; that's your choice. I hope that the coach of the team doesn't ignore it, though. You can say all you want about this player said and that player said they feel "protected" out there, but what in the hell would you expect them to say? "Uhh yeah Patrick, honestly Kevin does nothing for us and it's obvious that he can't play at all so you might want to ask the coach why he's out there and we're playing a man short because I don't make those decisions." Probably not gonna say that publicly, huh?

For the record, I'm not one that wants to remove fighting from the game. I'm saying that it is useless in this day and age with the instigator rule in place (and not going away anytime soon) to waste a spot in the lineup on someone who can't play NHL-level hockey. It's clear Westgarth can't, so he shouldn't be in there. Period.
So if we had someone not named Westgarth, but was a heayvweight who could play NHL level hockey but was fighting all the time, would you still want him on this team?

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01-31-2011, 06:19 PM
  #98
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So if we had someone not named Westgarth, but was a heayvweight who could play NHL level hockey but was fighting all the time, would you still want him on this team?
... Of course. If Westgarth could do what, say, Jay Miller did in his years with the Kings (10 goals his first season, 8 in his second) I would be thrilled with that and I'd want him out there every game. Hell I'd be happy with 4 or 5 goals a season considering this team. But - realistically, I'd be shocked if Westgarth got even one goal before it's said and done.

Westgarth reminds me more of an inexperienced Stu Grimson. And, what good is that? Grimson had some great bouts, yes. But what's the goal here? To win games, or to knock out other worthless scrubs like Reid Simpson once in a blue moon? Grimson never won a Cup and in fact only advanced beyond the first round twice in 14 years. He was passed around the league like a hot potato, playing for a different team seemingly every year or every other year, and by the time playoffs rolled around he was playing 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 minutes a game. He was a waste of a roster spot that could have been given to someone who could actually play the game. Is THIS your idea of a player crucial to a team's success???

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01-31-2011, 07:05 PM
  #99
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Johnny

If you polled dinosaurs during the end of the Cretaceous Period about 65 million years ago about the upcoming disaster, 98% would claim everything was going to be fine. For the sake of levity, I give you this example because most people don't like change and if you asked athletes in any sport at any time about the state of the game, the far majority would be fine with their sport. I bet if you polled NHL players every 5 years on the state of the game, 98% of them would state they like the game just as it is. Perhaps you liked the hooking, holding, clutching and grabbing NHL as well. Yet, the NHL evolved. They changed the game for the better of the game and the game is better today than it was before the lockout.

My opinion of fighting is the same. When I played, I fought. Over time, my opinion on the subject evolved. I see it as a detriment for the reasons stated. You disagree. That's cool. I was hoping for some dialogue and discussion. Unfortunately, Your tact and tone in response is almost childish and I expected more from you but I think this particular topic has for some reason struck an emotional chord with you.

In any event, you have made your opinion on the subject and your pugnacious opinion (there is an irony there that I hope isn't lost on others) of others' opinions very clear.

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01-31-2011, 07:31 PM
  #100
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Whoa whoa, dude. I gave a long winded defense a few pages back but then some of these immature little kids started attacking and insulting me, so I resorted to sacarsm.

Fighting is not going anywhere Zad. Darren Dreger said today on 640am that there are 15 players out right now with concussion issues and the number of hits right now in the NHL is at the highest it has ever been. Still, 98% of the players are in favor of fighting....Why? That stat has not gone down over the past 50 years....2% is in the NO and all of a sudden you think in the next 5-10 years players will go from 2% to say 50%? No way. No one wanted clutching and grabbing except the New Jersey Devils. Not players, not the fans. Most fans want fighting, most coaches want it. Hell, even Mike Babcock said he likes fighting. Who sits down and shakes their head in sadness during a live hockey fight? No one I ever see...

Players want to feel protected. You will be more apt to throw the body and go harder in the corners and mix it up in scrums. You know that if it came down to it, someone would step in for you if you were outmatched or cheap shotted.

I know the feeling when you are the only scrappy player for your team out there, it sucks...It all falls on you and you know that though some guys may have your back, they aren't really capable of really doing anything about it like Adam Mair did for the Kings years back. That's probably how Clifford feels some nights especially when Simmonds was hurt. You think Scuderi, Lewis and Co. are gonna start throwing punches or pushing guys out of the way. Ha. No way. Whether anyone likes it or not the Kings were only tough to play against versus Vancouver last year were Brown and Simmonds and Hordichuk, Rypien and Burrows were in Brown and Doughty's face every night...Who did anything....? No one...At least Clune had the balls to mix it up and start stirring it up and challenge Rypien.

I've said this a million times you give me a more balanced and tougher Kings team and I will agree that an enforcer is not needed late in the season and in the playoffs....But when all you have is Greene (a punching bag), Simmonds (who is good for about 4 fights a year), and a 20 year old badass, but still young in Clifford, you are in trouble.

Other teams have much more balanced toughness....we have none on our top 6 forwards, none on our top 3 D. That's a fact. Who is worried about playing against Kopitar, Loktionov, Stoll, Williams and Smyth? Or Scuderi and Johnson? Brown, yes, people hate playing against him, but he doesn't fight...Look what Francis Bouillon did to him, challenged him to a fight for about 30 seconds and Brown backed down, so Simmonds had to step in and end that.

Even Lombardi commented in his end of the year interview on Hammond's site that he was upset a Vancouver pushing us around and that things would change next year (this year) with Clifford and Westgarth.


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