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ATD 2011- Draft Thread

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Old
01-31-2011, 08:59 PM
  #976
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Seriously man? From atd gm to another? Come on.

This is the atd. We research, analyze, and then present our research and analysis. Sorry for doing exactly that, and sorry that the results didn't agree with your theory.
I actually meant that to just be some ribbing, I'm sorry I didn't add on some smiley to make that more obvious.

However, it hasn't done anything to debunk my "theory".

If anything caveats like the Dead Wings possibly having an easier time scoring than the highest scoring dynasty in the history of the game have me questioning how relative team strength should be accounted for in all these adjustments people are routinely doing.

I know you aren't a fan of that but..

Quote:
I've addressed your concerns as presented to the best of my abilities - have an open mind and don't try to move the goalposts on me after the fact.
I'm not moving the goalposts, you're just equating playoff performance with scoring. I'm talking about playoff performance including scoring.

I saw them both at their best (I believe you may have too) and I'll still say that at their best they are pretty comparable playoff performers. I'd feel very comfortable having either one on my team I know that.

I know you put a lot of stock into the numbers and put a lot of effort here into trying to estimate their totals, but there are so many variables that aren't even captured in the raw data it is hopeless to adjust and average and then stake a definitive claim either way. (in my opinion)

If we take them at face value and we're saying Messier was estimated to be scoring at 1.07PPG with your normalization and Yzerman was at 1PPG then I'd say since the majority of Yzerman's playoff games came after he was a defensive stalwart that their playoff performance was fairly close, no?

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:13 PM
  #977
Hawkey Town 18
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I agree with you on this one.

I'd put them roughly equal in overall play with Chelios being a bit more solid defensively & more physical(/dirty) and MacInnis having a fairly substantial offensive advantage to make up for those.
Maybe I'm being too picky here, but Chelios is a lot more than "a bit more solid defesively" than Al MacInnis. This is a guy who twice beat out Ray Bourque (who was fantastic defensively) for the Norris while scoring 9 and 10 less points than him.

EDIT: MacInnis, on the other hand put up 103 points in 90'-91', which was 9 MORE points than Bourque, and still lost the Norris to him.

EDIT #2: To his credit, MacInnis did beat out both Bourque and Lidstrom for the 98' Norris while only scoring 5 more points than each of them

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:19 PM
  #978
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Come on Bugg....I wanna pick before I leave.

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:21 PM
  #979
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Maybe I'm being too picky here, but Chelios is a lot more than "a bit more solid defesively" than Al MacInnis. This is a guy who twice beat out Ray Bourque (who was fantastic defensively) for the Norris while scoring 9 and 10 less points than him.

EDIT: MacInnis, on the other hand put up 103 points in 90'-91', which was 9 MORE points than Bourque, and still lost the Norris to him.
Just more evidence about how silly voting is sometimes. A very good case could be made that MacInnis should have won in 90-91.

Seriously though, it really depends on which MacInnis we're comparing to.

He improved a lot defensively and was much more sound later in his career than early.

Over their entire careers yeah Chelios was probably quite a bit better defensively. At their best defensively I'd say it was much more close (Chelios still better though - his physicality is an edge).

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:23 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Come on Bugg....I wanna pick before I leave.
I can take a list if you need to leave

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:28 PM
  #981
Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Just more evidence about how silly voting is sometimes. A very good case could be made that MacInnis should have won in 90-91.

Seriously though, it really depends on which MacInnis we're comparing to.

He improved a lot defensively and was much more sound later in his career than early.

Over their entire careers yeah Chelios was probably quite a bit better defensively. At their best defensively I'd say it was much more close (Chelios still better though - his physicality is an edge).
I would say the same goes for offense (obviously with the two switched). Chelios showed that at his best he could be a lot closer to MacInnis than he was over his entire career putting up a few 70+ point seasons and leading the Hawks in scoring with 21 points in 18 games during the 92' Cup Final run. Just as you said about defense for Chelios, offensively MacInnis was still better.

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:40 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Come on Bugg....I wanna pick before I leave.

Bugg is viewing this thread right now so he should pick soon...

I hope you're still here or left a list/leave a list.

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:44 PM
  #983
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The Kimberley Dynamiters are proud to end the first round with one the last great two-way centers left, the man who was once called "the Jean Beliveau of English Canada":

C Syl Apps Sr.



I'll be doing a full bio, but for now, the most amazing thing to me about Apps' career is Hart voting. While he never won it, he came about as close as one can- 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd in voting.

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:46 PM
  #984
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I'd love to read that bio when it's done Bugg, especially anything that is a testament of his two-way play (because I've never really heard or seen anything much about it, and EB did a huge bio on him last year).

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01-31-2011, 09:56 PM
  #985
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while researching eddie shore, i read some debate about whether syl apps was the best player in history. this was early in apps' career, late '30s.

but it was a controversial opinion and it seems most writers preferred older players.

i also read some debate, in the '40s, whether apps was the best C in history. there was similar debate about milt schmidt. these were less controversial.

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:58 PM
  #986
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Geez, the run on defensemen continues...

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:05 PM
  #987
Dreakmur
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List pick is here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
1)Tim Horton
I'll MP the next GM.

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:06 PM
  #988
hungryhungryhippy
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you'll member of parliament the next gm?

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:07 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
you'll member of parliament the next gm?
Yep. They keep telling me my vote matters.

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:16 PM
  #990
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Sorry I dropped the ball there. My bad. Blame me and not JFA guys.
No one was blaming me. I was the one complaining. I always send pm's to the next gm no matter what just do the same for me guys. No worries tho its all good. I just would have been mad if my time expired and someone snagged Newsy Lalonde from me. It came down to two choices for me lalonde & Joe Sakic. I was suprised to see lalonde still available

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:17 PM
  #991
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Thanks dreak. I'm out the door in 10 minutes but I thought I would give my pick some props before I go.

The legendary Tim Horton:

-Key piece of 4 Stanley cup winners
-6 times either 1st or 2nd team all-star
-1967 Conn Smyth runner up

''If only he got angry once in awhile he would have been the best by far!'' - **** ******

''He used his tremendous strength and skill to keep you in check.'' - Bobby Hull


Last edited by monster_bertuzzi: 01-31-2011 at 10:27 PM.
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Old
01-31-2011, 10:19 PM
  #992
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If 1967 is the year I'm thinking of, then most people here agree he should have won the Conn Smythe over Mikita

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:24 PM
  #993
hungryhungryhippy
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I'm 600% sure I know who LF is going to pick next, anyone wanna make a bet?

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:31 PM
  #994
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any documentation of horton being 2nd in smythe voting?

voting is not publicized.

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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
If 1967 is the year I'm thinking of, then most people here agree he should have won the Conn Smythe over Mikita
1962

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:32 PM
  #995
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
I'm 600% sure I know who LF is going to pick next, anyone wanna make a bet?
Sure.... PM me your guess and I'll respond

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:32 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
The Kimberley Dynamiters are proud to end the first round with one the last great two-way centers left, the man who was once called "the Jean Beliveau of English Canada":

C Syl Apps Sr.



I'll be doing a full bio, but for now, the most amazing thing to me about Apps' career is Hart voting. While he never won it, he came about as close as one can- 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd in voting.
Greatest Maple Leaf ever. Class act.

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:38 PM
  #997
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Well, I can't continue my Glenn Hall taking streak this draft (it ends at 4 ATD's including the ones at LC), but it doesn't mean I can not continue my streak of elite goalies. So I'll take my dad's favourite goalie growing up, the calm, cool, man who I won't have to defend so much in the playoffs, the man from Montreal:



KEN DRYDEN

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:40 PM
  #998
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Well, I can't continue my Glenn Hall taking streak this draft (it ends at 4 ATD's including the ones at LC), but it doesn't mean I can not continue my streak of elite goalies. So I'll take my dad's favourite goalie growing up, the calm, cool, man who I won't have to defend so much in the playoffs, the man from Montreal:



KEN DRYDEN
Damn you. I lost my bet

Looks like I have to trade my 24th round pick for HHH's 25th rounder

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:40 PM
  #999
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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
I'm 600% sure I know who LF is going to pick next, anyone wanna make a bet?
Well if Glenn Hall was available, that wouldn't be worth betting

But since he wasn't...who did you think I was to take?

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:41 PM
  #1000
hungryhungryhippy
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HAHA i knew it!

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