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Messier overrated?

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Old
01-31-2011, 07:21 PM
  #126
Rob Zepp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If you think Messier is a top-10 player thanks to his career totals... then you are overrating him. He belongs in the 20-30 range. Generally, the people in this section do not overrate him.

Dude's got a lot going for him:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=27918473&postcount=2
I would think of him more if he had actually had a positive impact on Vancouver for the three years he came and simply cashed cheques in that city. For a guy supposedly still in good form to perform, he apparently brought very little game.

I agree, therefore, with your 20-30 range comment completely.

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Old
01-31-2011, 09:51 PM
  #127
Trottier
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This is a pretty cool site.

Over the last couple of days, I've learned that:

Messier was overrated.

Gretzky was a product of his time.

Crosby has had a better career to date than Mario.

Joe Sakic was not that valuable to his team.

Brodeur is overrated.

I'm learning a lot about the game from the historians here.

(None of the above is an exaggeration. Citations offered upon request.)

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:01 PM
  #128
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everyone is just giving their OPINION. Not much FACT here.

So say what you want. I like him 10th overal, you like him 30th overall.

The dude in game 6 said "WE WILL WIN" and went out and got a hat trick that night.

Now THAT doesnt mean MUCH but it means he is a BIG GAME PLAYER.

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:09 PM
  #129
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Being the only player to be a captain for a cup winning team for two different organizations has to count for something when it comes to leadership, doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't see why, honestly.

To me, it's more of a trivia answer than anything else. I don't see why captaining two different teams to a Cup is any better than captaining the same team twice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Because only one person has done it.
Was it really 2 different teams?

Alot of former Oilers (off the top of my head 6 guys including Mess) were on that NYR team as well as some other very good players like Brian Leetch who had a playoff for the ages that year.

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01-31-2011, 10:22 PM
  #130
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
This is a pretty cool site.

Over the last couple of days, I've learned that:

Messier was overrated.

Gretzky was a product of his time.

Crosby has had a better career to date than Mario.

Joe Sakic was not that valuable to his team.

Brodeur is overrated.

I'm learning a lot about the game from the historians here.

(None of the above is an exaggeration. Citations offered upon request.)
I think the Crosby part is in repsonse to what I said in that if you include everything they did in their 1st 5 years that there is a storng arguement that Crosby was the better player yes he did captain the Pens to a Cup and I will stand by that.

I think it is pretty clear to most poeple that you really don't seem to like posts that disagree with your take on things, which on a couple of occassions your respsonse was kinda childish.

Of course your defense was that other people were being childish. (somethign my teenage daughters often site in their defense as well).

Let's get back to making points and offerring opinions on the topics at hand.

Messier had a great career and a 20-30 ranking is fine, especially given his Vancouver years.

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Old
01-31-2011, 10:39 PM
  #131
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
This is a pretty cool site.

Over the last couple of days, I've learned that:

Messier was overrated.

Gretzky was a product of his time.

Crosby has had a better career to date than Mario.

Joe Sakic was not that valuable to his team.

Brodeur is overrated.

I'm learning a lot about the game from the historians here.

(None of the above is an exaggeration. Citations offered upon request.)
Quote:
one of those cases where fortunate circumstance combined with very good talent produced a reputation greater than it would have been based purely on that talent.
Kinda hard to disagree with that statement, dude.

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Old
02-01-2011, 08:01 AM
  #132
livewell68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Will leave the rankings and your overall mischaractering yet another all-time N. American great. (First Potvin, now Messier. Funny. Both would tear Jagr's head off in a nanosecond.)
Jagr is was bigger and stronger than Messier and Potvin and although he never hit or fought, he would never be intimidated by Messier or Potvin. Not many players took the abuse and physical punishment that Jagr took in the 1990's and he was still the premier offensive player of the 90's.

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Old
02-01-2011, 08:21 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Other than Lidstrom, how many players ever had seasons that rival their peak period after turning 35 years old?



A testament to a great peak and longevity. You don't end up that high in the all time leaders without both for the most part. In addiition, IMO he was still a solid NHL player right up until he retired. Nobody has the right to tell a player to leave the game if he can still play. If he couldn't play, nobody would have offered him an NHL contract.



Amongst guys I saw, he is behind Trots and Clarke with regard to completeness. While he became a good defensive forward later in his career, he was not a good defensive center in the Edmonton years. He was a great scorer and a physical menace, but only later did his defense improve. Sort of like Stevens in that regard.



Not too many players have multiple Harts. Give credit where credit is do. He was a great center who's career coincided with the two most dominate centers of all-time. Even Beliveau and Mikita would have had trouble getting all-star noms and MVPs in that era.



Obviuosly it takes a team to win a cup, but he was one of the three most valuable players in that run. Again, give credit where credit is do. Without anyone of Leetch, Richter or Mess, that team doesn't get past NJ.


Conclusion:

Great peak, great career numbers, physical menace, clutch, leader, key contributor on 6 cups, highly skilled. IMO he's a top 25 player of all-time.
Again this is your opinion.

Ovechkin has won 2 Hart trophies, he might go on to be a 30 goal scorer the rest of his career and never sniff at another Hart, would that make him a top 25 player just because he won multiple Hart trophies?

Messier won 2 Harts but was never a top 10 player in other years, I rest by that statement. He's not top 25.

Also there are many players that have played at their peak numbers past their primes, Selanne, Sakic and Jagr have all done it.

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Old
02-01-2011, 08:54 AM
  #134
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Again this is your opinion.
Actually it's called an informed opinion since I saw his entire career.

Quote:
Ovechkin has won 2 Hart trophies, he might go on to be a 30 goal scorer the rest of his career and never sniff at another Hart, would that make him a top 25 player just because he won multiple Hart trophies?
Messier was much more than just a 30 goalscorer outside his two MVP years. He was a star for a decade and a half. If AO is just a 30 goal scorer the rest of his career, he won't be ranked as high as a guy like Messier.

Quote:
Messier won 2 Harts but was never a top 10 player in other years, I rest by that statement. He's not top 25.
Are you kidding me? He was consistently a top 10 player in the NHL for about 15 years between 1982 and 1997, when he turned 36.

Quote:
Also there are many players that have played at their peak numbers past their primes, Selanne, Sakic and Jagr have all done it.
Yep. Definetly great hockey players, but every player's career is a different story.

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Old
02-01-2011, 09:06 AM
  #135
livewell68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Actually it's called an informed opinion since I saw his entire career.



Messier was much more than just a 30 goalscorer outside his two MVP years. He was a star for a decade and a half. If AO is just a 30 goal scorer the rest of his career, he won't be ranked as high as a guy like Messier.



Are you kidding me? He was consistently a top 10 player in the NHL for about 15 years between 1982 and 1997, when he turned 36.


Yep. Definetly great hockey players, but every player's career is a different story.
For the most part in the 1980's when scoring was rather high, Messier was never a top 10 player. Again show me 5 other seasons than his 2 Hart seasons in which he was a top 10 player?

In 1996 he was runner up for the Hart but Jagr was more deserving for the votes than Messier was.

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Old
02-01-2011, 09:24 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
For the most part in the 1980's when scoring was rather high, Messier was never a top 10 player. Again show me 5 other seasons than his 2 Hart seasons in which he was a top 10 player?

In 1996 he was runner up for the Hart but Jagr was more deserving for the votes than Messier was.
I said he was always considered a top 10 player for a decade and a half. You do realize there is more to being a top 10 player or a great hockey player than just where you end up on a score sheet do you not?

Again, it's quite clear you never saw the man at his best.

As for the 1996 MVP, why is that relevant and why do you keep bringing up Jagr in posts related to me in this thread? I've never said anything in this thread regarding Messier being better than Jagr. That said, I think both are rightfully slotted in the top 25 and are in the same category of stars. A good argument could be made for either player being ahead of the other guy.

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Old
02-01-2011, 09:54 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Except a Norris isn't just a Norris. If you ask me, Harvey was so far ahead of the league's other D-men for most, if not all of his 7 norris trophies, that 7 "average" norrises just wouldn't compare.
Awards Nomination:

James Norris Memorial Trophy:
The James Norris Memorial Trophy didn't existed in Harvey's first five seasons in the NHL. He was a first All-Star Team member in 1951, 1952 and 1953, which mean he would of probably been a Top-2 Norris finalist in those 3 seasons.

1953-54: 2nd position (Red Kelly) (-64.8%)
1954-55: 1st position (+34.6%)
1955-56: 1st position (+62.2%)
1956-57: 1st position (+73.6%)
1957-58: 1st position (+22.2%)
1958-59: 4th position (Tom Johnson) (-47.8%)
1959-60: 1st position (+67.5%)
1960-61: 1st position (+67.9%)
1961-62: 1st position (+53.9%)

In between the brackets are the percentages in which Harvey beat the runner-up. In 1959, it's how far he was from the winner.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
But I'm open minded about it and not entrenched in my ranking of the all time best Dmen either and realize that Harvey was the best Dman of his era.
If you have a couple of minutes, this biography of Doug Harvey will tell you a little bit about him. I've wrote everything I've found on Harvey, even if it was negative.

---

Monsieur Douglas Norman Harvey



Nickname: Dallying Doug
Height: 5'11''
Weight: 187 lbs
Position: Defense
Shoots: Left
Date of Birth: December 19, 1924
Place of Birth: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Date of Death: December 26, 1989 (Age: 65)

Stanley Cup Champion (1953, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1951, 1952, 1954, 1955, 1968)
Memorial Cup Participation (1944, 1945)
Allan Cup Champion (1947)
NHL First All-Star Team Defence (1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962)
NHL Second All-Star Team Defence (1959)
Played in NHL All-Star Game (1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1969)
AHL Second All-Star Team Defence (1963)
James Norris Memorial Trophy (1953*, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962)
Team Captain (1960-1961)
Canada Sports Hall of Fame (1975)
Pantheon des Sports du Quebec (1995)
Hockey Hall of Fame (1973)
#2 Retired by the Montreal Canadiens (26th of October, 1985)

- #6 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players (1998 edition)
- #9 on History of Hockey list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players (2008 edition)
- #6 on History of Hockey list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players (2009 edition)
- Voted #1 defensive defenceman of All-Time by Hockey's 100
- Voted best passer of the 1950's by Ultimate Hockey
- Voted finest athlete of the 1950's by Ultimate Hockey
- Voted best Defensive Defenseman of the 1950's by Ultimate Hockey
- Voted smartest Player of the 1950's by Ultimate Hockey
- Voted on the 1950's Decade All-Star Defence


SeasonsGPGAPTSPIM
201113884525401216

Top-20 Scoring (11th, 13th, 17th)
Top-20 Assist (2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 12th, 12th, 13th, 13th, 17th)
Top-10 Penalty minutes (3rd, 3rd)
Top-10 Scoring Among Defence (1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th)
Top-10 Goalscoring Among Defence (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 9th, 10th)
Top-10 Assist Among Defence (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 7th, 8th)
Top-10 Penalty minutes Among Defence (2nd, 2nd, 6th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 10th)


PlayoffsGPGAPTSPIM
1513786472152

Top-10 Playoff Scoring (5th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (4th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 7th)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty minutes (4th, 8th, 8th, 10th)
Top-5 Playoff Scoring Among Defence (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th)
Top-5 Playoff Goalscoring Among Defence (1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd)
Top-5 Playoff Assist Among Defence (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 5th, 5th)
Top-5 Playoff Penalty minutes Among Defence (2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th)


Awards Nomination:

James Norris Memorial Trophy:
The James Norris Memorial Trophy didn't existed in Harvey's first five seasons in the NHL. He was a first All-Star Team member in 1951, 1952 and 1953, which mean he would of probably been a Top-2 Norris finalist in those 3 seasons.

1953-54: 2nd position (Red Kelly) (-64.8%)
1954-55: 1st position (+34.6%)
1955-56: 1st position (+62.2%)
1956-57: 1st position (+73.6%)
1957-58: 1st position (+22.2%)
1958-59: 4th position (Tom Johnson) (-47.8%)
1959-60: 1st position (+67.5%)
1960-61: 1st position (+67.9%)
1961-62: 1st position (+53.9%)
Hart Memorial Trophy:
1954-55: 5th position (Ted Kennedy) (-79.1%)
1955-56: 5th position (Jean Beliveau) (-88.3%)
1956-57: 5th position (Gordie Howe) (-84.7%)
1957-58: 3rd position (Gordie Howe) (-61.0%)
1958-59: 2nd position (Jacques Plante) (-36.2%)


Professional Career:

- In 1947-48, he started his NHL career with the Montreal Canadiens
- In 1960-61, he joined the New York Rangers as player-coach
- In 1966-67, he played two games with the Detroit Red Wings, more than four years after his last game in the NHL with the New York Rangers
- Harvey began the 1967-68 schedule with the Kansas City Blues of the CPHL before rejoining the NHL with expansion St. Louis for the playoffs. He played another full season with Blues before retiring for good
- In 1969, Harvey remained in hockey as the assistant coach of the Los Angeles Kings, and later that year the head coach of the Laval Saints in the QJMHL.
- In 1973, he became an assistant coach and scout with the WHA's Houston Aeros
- In 1985, he was offered a scouting position with the Montreal Canadiens


Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends of Hockey
Doug Harvey was unquestionably the top defenseman of his era. Along with Eddie Shore and Bobby Orr, he probably had the greatest impact of any player at that position. His dramatic rushes and superior defensive work allowed him to dominate the game. In a franchise deep in heroes, Harvey gained an immortal place in the storied history of the Montreal Canadiens. His role the Habs' record-setting five straight Cup wins from 1956 to 1960 was paramount.

His talent on the ice was matched by unqualified loyalty to the team.

Harvey proved to be an exceptionally talented and versatile player for the Habs. He quarterbacked the power play, set the tempo for the transitional game and the counterattack, defended tenaciously, blocked shots and intimidated the opposition by merely stepping on the ice. As much as any skater before or since, he was the complete player who meant everything to his team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends of Hockey: One on One / Pinnacle
Dick Irvin very quickly discovered Harvey's greatest skill – the ability to control the temp of a game. Methodically, Doug carried the puck, at his own speed, surveying the ice landscape before he committed to any play. At first, it drove his coach and teammates to distraction, until they learned that there was method to Harvey's madness – the other team couldn't score if Doug controlled the puck.

In the 1953 Stanley Cup final, Montreal won Game Four by a 7-3 count, with Maurice Richard collecting a hattrick. The tandem of Butch Bouchard and Doug Harvey was particularly effective.

In the playoffs on 1968, St. Louis was playing Philadelphia in the seventh game of their quarter-final playoff series. Paired with veteran Al Arbour, Harvey and his partner played more than 40 minutes each in a 3-1 victory to clinch the series.

Against the Canadiens, the veteran kept the flying Habitants off balance with his knowledge of angles, clearing the puck unerringly and setting up St. Louis forays with his beautifully-timed passes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey’s Golden Era
Doug Harvey was the first defenseman in NHL history who ''quarterbacked'' his team. Playing from the blueline, Harvey would orchestrate the Canadiens’ style of ''fire wagon hockey'' with his ability to frame accurate passes. Not only was his passing a sight to behold but he could control game as he pleased.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey’s Glory Days
Doug Harvey was the best defenseman in hockey during his heydays, and he ranks among the greatest of all time. He could check, block shots, rush the puck, stickhandle, and pass, but what made him truly unique was the way he could combine his skills to control the pace of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who's Who in Hockey
Defenseman Douglas Harvey was so laconic in style, so calmly sure of himself, that he executed plays of extreme complexity with consummate ease.

He was a consummate craftsman, perhaps unmatched among defenseman for a union of style, wisdom, and strength.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Putting a Roof on Winter
Harvey was the Habs’ general, directing play, controlling pace, passing with uncanny accuracy, and busting the head of anyone who got in the way of him or his teammates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey: A People’s History
Doug Harvey and Eddie Shore were cut from the same hockey cloth – tough, talented, unsentimental players who faced their opponents without pity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada Sports Hall of Fame
Harvey could skate with anyone, had great puck-handling skills, and was rock solid inside his own blueline.

He wasn't the biggest or strongest or fastest, but he was likely second best in every category, making him the finest all-round defenceman by a country mile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier's Greatest Hockey Legend
There is little doubt that Wayne Gretzky is the greatest playmaker ever. But have you ever considered who should be second?

How about Doug Harvey. He was the key to the Flying Frenchmen's fire wagon hockey that saw them win an unparalleled 5 consecutive Stanley Cups in the 1950s. In doing so Harvey revolutionized hockey with the introduction of transition offense.

While the Habs had a collection of Hall of Famers that were compiled to form arguably the greatest team in history, Doug was the key to their attack.

The first key to Doug's success was he was a flawless defender. Doug was so superb in one on one defensive battles that he would routinely steal the puck off the attacker as though he were picking cherries. He would rarely be beaten, and his teammates knew it.

Even more impressive was Doug's ability with the puck. He would rarely simply dump the puck out of the zone. He would be able to gain control of the puck and never give it up. At first he would drive fans and coaches crazy, as he wandered in front of the net with fore-checkers zooming in, but more often than not he would remain calm, and in an unhurried fashion spot a streaking forward with a pinpoint pass. Because of t his uncanny ability Montreal's superstar forwards could afford stay high and loosen up on their backchecking duties.

Harvey was also the quarterback of such a devastating power play that it was decided in 1956 to change the rules and allow a player to return to the ice if his team surrendered a power play goal.

Unlike a Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey, Doug wouldn't rush the puck out of his own zone. His thinking was the puck can move faster than any player on the ice, so why not utilize that as a tactic? He had this unique ability to draw in a forechecker which would then open up more ice for his teammates. [...] Harvey would plant a perfect pass to one of his forwards, creating an odd-man rush. In doing so, Harvey controlled the game perhaps better than any player in history. More often than not he would rag the puck to slow the game down, but he also knew exactly when to catch the other team by surprise with a perfectly placed pass into an open lane.

Doug Harvey is perhaps the greatest all-around defenseman of all time. He was not as offensively gifted as Bobby Orr but controlled in much the same degree if only a contrasting style. He was not as hard hitting as Eddie Shore, but he was known as one of the most physical yet clean defenders of his time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Shea
Harvey controlled the game like Orr did, but where Orr controlled it by carrying the puck, by acting as a forward, Harvey would slow the pace down, then pick it up. He could control the game and was the epitome of the brilliant general on the blueline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hockey Writers
Harvey was the key to their attack. Most impressive was his ability with the puck. Doug’s flawless defensive style resulted in repeated turnovers, as he proved almost impossible to beat. Having picked the oncoming forward’s pocket for the puck, he would maintain control, ragging it, waiting patiently for a forward to break loose upon which he would hit him with a pinpoint pass creating another odd man rush. With his ultra-calm manner and surgeon like passing precision he single-handedly changed the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Canadiens Website
Not only is Doug Harvey arguably the greatest defenseman in Canadiens history, but he also changed the way the position is played for blue-liners who followed him. As the game’s first truly offensive rearguard, Harvey’s puck-control style helped pace the Habs’ offense during the 1950s, spawning a future generation of NHL power-play quarterbacks.

Big, strong and with a pronounced mean streak when the situation called for it, Harvey kept his side of the rink unwelcome territory for oncoming forwards, who quickly became reluctant to pay the price for trespassing.

A dedicated team player, Harvey passed up numerous scoring opportunities of his own, opting to pick up assists while helping teammates who had financial incentives tied to their goal production take home their bonus money.

His masterful stickhandling allowed him to control the puck for as long as he wished. It was often to the dismay of fans, coaches and opponents, who watched helplessly as the defenseman took chances that others dared not take, rarely being caught out of position or making a costly mistake.

Adept at speeding up the game with unerring passes that always seemed to find their target, Harvey could also slow things down if need be, taking the wind out of his opponents’ sails and allowing his teammates to catch their breath.

Among the greatest players to ever lace up skates, Harvey was invariably the smartest man on the ice.
Quotes:

- ''I'm not throwing any pucks away. I'm trying to do what's best for the team. That's why I take my time and make the play." - Doug Harvey, on his style of play

- ''I'm running them into the boards and banging them around one minute and because we win the Stanley Cup, that's going to change? I don't really like them anyway. Why should I shake their hands?'' - Doug Harvey, refusing to shake hand with the Boston Bruins after the 1953 Stanley Cup Final

- ''He was great, always willing to help.'' - Maurice Richard

- ''The greatest defenceman who ever played the game.'' - Jean Béliveau

- ''He was cool and deliberate.'' - Milt Schmidt

- ''If the game was 8-2, Doug Harvey might have a goal and an assist. If the score was 3-2, he'd have 2 or 3 points.'' - Hal Laycoe

- ''He was so good that he played mind games with the opposition. If he had Orr's legs, he would of been in that class - he was anyway, but he couldn't accelerate like Orr. Doug was more like a Mack Truck.'' - Howie Meeker

- ''He was the best defenceman of our day. I never played with him, so I never knew him personally, but he was well respected.'' - George Armstrong

- ''One of the greatest player in the history of the game.'' - Pat Burns

- ''Harvey did what was expected of him. He was nobody’s fool. He was a smart player, someone tough who didn’t mind mixing it up. We all knew we had to bring our best to have a chance of beating him.'' - Dick Duff

- ''No player put my heart in my mouth like as often as Doug, but I learned to swallow in silence. His style was casual, but it worked. He made few mistakes, and, ninety-nine percent of the time correctly anticipated the play or the pass.'' - Toe Blake

- ''He could have played center, he could have played left wing, he could have played goal. There was no part of the game he couldn't do.'' - Tom Johnson

- ''All I know is that the son of a gun came out of nowhere to become the biggest thorn in the side of the Leafs in our glory days. He was an early Bobby Orr, except he did it at semi-slow motion. You always knew what was coming - you could see it happening - but you couldn't do anything about it.'' - Howie Meeker, remembering how his teammate came to fear Harvey's ability to control a game

- ''Doug played defence in a rocking chair.'' - Toe Blake

- ''He changed the whole game.'' - Bernard Geoffrion

- ''Doug Harvey was the greatest defenseman who ever played hockey, bar none. Usually, a defensemen specializes in one thing and builds a reputation around that, but Doug could do everything well. His style was casual, but it worked. He made few mistakes, and 99% of the time correctly anticipated the play or pass.'' - Dickie Moore

- ''It's like playing against (Wayne) Gretzky and (Bobby) Orr. It didn't matter what they did, they always beat you.'' - George Armstrong, comparing Doug Harvey to Gretzky and Orr

- ''No slight to Bobby Orr but Doug Harvey was the best defenseman ever to play the game.'' - Ted Lindsay

- ''As far as I'm concerned, Harvey's far and away the best defensemen ever." - Toe Blake


Biography & Personal Life:

Douglas Norman Harvey was born in Montreal's Notre Dame de Grace neighbourhood on December 19, 1924. A natural athlete from the time of his youth, Doug began playing organized hockey at the age of 13. First, as a goaltender: put there because of his diminutive size. He disliked being stuck in goal, so he was moved to centre. It was only later that he would be placed on defence, a position he would later revolutionize.

While Harvey excelled at hockey, many will argue that as great as he was on the ice, he was even better on the baseball diamond and the gridiron playing football. In 1942-43, as a member of the Montreal Navy, Harvey was recognize as the most valuable player in the Quebec Rugby Football Union. That squad won football's Grey Cup in 1944, although without their star halfback, Harvey, who was serving his country during the Second World War.

During World War II, Harvey was a gunner for a merchant ship in the north Atlantic. Upon his return from the war, Harvey served in the Navy. In the 1944-45 season, Harvey played hockey at the same time with the National Defence League's Donnaconas and also played football with the Montreal Hornets, the predecessor of the Montreal Alouettes of the Canadian Football League.

In 1945-46, Doug graduated to the Royals' senior team, and helped the team win the Quebec Senior Hockey League championship. The next year, the Royals went all the way and collected the Allan Cup as Canada's premier senior hockey team. The same year, Doug also played semi-pro baseball with the Ottawa Nationals of the Class 'C' Border League. Harvey, a third baseman, missed much of the end of his baseball season as it took place at the same time as the Montreal Canadiens' training camp.

In his first training camp with the Canadiens, Harvey made quite an impression with his new club. The Montreal Gazette had this to say on the young defenseman: ''Doug Harvey can skate with the best of them, is big enough to horse around with any of those NHL hard guys, handles his stick expertly and has a head on his shoulders.''

Doug Harvey made the Montreal Canadiens, replacing Frank Eddolls, who had been traded to the New York Rangers. Doug was even given Eddolls' number 2 to wear with the Habs. Harvey joined a defence corps that included Butch Bouchard, Glen Harmon, Roger Leger and Ken Reardon. It took Doug a few seasons to assert himself as one of the league's premier defencemen, but by 1951-52, he was selected to the NHL's First All-Star Team for the first of ten times.

With Montreal, his skating ability and puck control skills combined with his shot blocking prowess and toughness were unequalled. Unlike modern defenceman of the like of Niklas Lidstrom and Bobby Orr, Harvey could dominate the game physically as well as with finesse serving up crunching body checks and open ice hits to the opposition when the situation dictated it.

At the offseason of 1956, Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey formed the first player’s union to fight for player’s rights. The league at that time was infamous in its disrespect for even the stars of the time. Both were furious that the owners had not matched the 900.00$ per year pension contributions as promised. The contribution by the owners came from All-Star Game tickets and a surcharge on playoff tickets, and not from their own pockets. Harvey and Lindsay, who had fought bloodied battles on the ice, joined forces to organize the players: ''We figured we could do better by the pension plans if we had an association and our own legal advisors,'' explained Harvey. Surprisingly, every players but one kicked in the 100.00$ necessary and the union was started. In 1957, Jimmy Thomson, the veteran defenceman and representative of the Toronto Maple Leafs, was the first to get traded for his involvement in the players union. A couple of years later, both Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey, all-star players of their respective teams, got traded: all three, for little return. By 1960, the owners succeeded to scuttle the first attempt to form an union.

While the Montreal Canadiens organization argued that Harvey's trade was motivated by his age and flagging skill-set, Doug was never convinced. "It had to do with union activities," he stated firmly. "I was a First Team All-Star and won the Norris that year. You don't give away a player like that!" It would take another decade before the players finally gain control of their association.

Harvey then played two season with the New York Rangers. In 1961-62, he was named player-coach and with a 26-32-12 records, was able to squeeze his team into a playoff spot. This was the first time since 1958 and the last time in the Original Six era that the New York Rangers were able to obtain a playoff spot. Moreover, for his effort on the ice, he received his seventh and last James Norris trophy. The 1962-63 season was far less memorable for Harvey and the Rangers. In the fall of 1962, Harvey worked out an arrangement with the management where he could go home between games and didn't even have to practice. The Rangers finished 21 points out of a playoff spot and Harvey was left unprotected by the team.

It was the beginning of a tumultuous time for Doug. In 1963, Harvey signed with the Quebec Aces of the American Hockey League, where he spent two seasons. In 1965-66, Doug signed as a free agent with the AHL's Baltimore Clippers. Just before Christmas of 1966, he was traded to Providence of the AHL, but exercised a clause in his contract that allowed him to become a free agent if he was traded by the Clippers. In doing so, Harvey joined the Pittsburgh Hornets, the AHL affiliate of the Detroit Red Wings. During that 1966-67 season, he found himself back in the NHL for 2 games with the Detroit Red Wings.

During the summer of 1967, the newly-formed St. Louis Blues hired Doug to coach their affiliate franchise in Kansas City. Harvey was once again a playing-coach, and the team made the playoffs. But once they were eliminated, the parent Blues called up several players for their playoff run, including Gary Veneruzzo, Don McKenney and Doug Harvey. He also played the entire 1968-69 season with the Blues, but then, at the age of 44, retired from professional hockey.

During his hockey career and after, Doug Harvey was a troubling personality. He drove his teammates and coaches crazy with his tardiness, stubbornness and often berating ways. Years later, it would be determined Harvey was suffering from bipolar disorder, a manic-depressive disease. Back then, not much was known about the illness. During his playing days with the Montreal Canadiens, Harvey was a dedicated team player, but as the years passed, it was becoming harder and harder to put up with his heavy drinking.

Decades after his retirement, hard-living had taken its toll on Doug. In the mid-80's, Ronald Corey, who was at the time the president of the Canadiens, was informed of Doug's personal situation and hired him as a part-time scout. Indeed, one of hockey's greatest heroes was living in a railway car, a mobile living unit once used by prime minister John Diefenbaker, at an Ottawa-area race track drinking his life away. ''I go to those games anyway, and I'm sure I can help,'' later said Harvey, on his new job.

Unfortunately he would spend much of his last few years battling alcohol and mental illness. In 1988, Harvey was diagnosed with liver disease. ''It was just such a strange thing for us to see our father needy,'' admitted Darlene Petsche, the oldest of Doug's daughters. ''All his life he'd been a big, strong, athletic guy who could do anything.'' During the last weeks of his life, when asked about his life, he didn't regret a thing: ''If I had to do it over again,'' he said, ''I wouldn't have changed a thing.''

On December 26, 1989, reduced to a shell of his former robust self, Doug Harvey died of cirrhosis of the liver in Montreal General Hospital. He had stopped drinking three years before he passed away, but at that point it was too late. He had just celebrated his 65th birthday. If only Harvey had receive some help, perhaps he could of lived much longer. But, as Jean Beliveau pointed out, there is little that could of been done since Harvey didn't admit to needing help. Maurice Richard, a teammate and also a good friend of Harvey, said after Harvey's death: ''Everyone tried to put him on the right path, but there was nothing to be done.''

Although his behaviour at time was eccentric and erratic, Harvey was a beloved character by both his family and his teammate. Fans will always remember Harvey not for his latter years, but rather as one of the greatest defencemen of all-time.


Fun & Interesting Facts:

- In 1946, Doug played with the Montreal Royals alongside his brother, Howard, who played goaltender. They won the league championship that year.
- In the fall of 1947, Harvey declined an offer to play for the Boston Braves of the MLB, because the date interfere with the one of the Canadiens training camp
- On October 16, 1947, Harvey started his career with the Canadiens in a 2-1 loss to the Rangers
- In 1954, Harvey scored a Cup-losing own-goal when he tipped the puck with his glove, after a deflected shot by Tony Leswick of the Detroit Red Wings, past goalie Gerry McNeil
- For the 1957-58 season, Harvey was unanimously voted on the First All-Star team defence, a feat only achieve once before him, and four time since then
- In the 1961-62 season, Harvey became the only player to win a major individual playing award (James Norris Trophy) while coaching
- In 1962, with the New York Rangers, Harvey was the highest paid player in the league, with a salary of 30 000$
- With the Detroit Red Wings, Harvey wore the #5, as Gary Bergman played with the #2. It's the only time in his NHL career that Harvey wore a different number than his beloved #2
- Harvey is the only player in the history of the league to win a major individual award in consecutive years with different teams
- On October 1970, Harvey was unsuccessful to be elected to the Montreal city council
- Harvey was unanimously elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1973. When invited to his own Hockey Hall of Fame Induction, the free spirited Harvey decided instead to go fishing
- Harvey is said to have played a key role in luring the Howe family to play with the Houston Aeros
- In 1984, fans of the Montreal Canadiens selected an all-time All-Star Team. Jacques Plante was chosen as goaltender, the forwards were Jean Beliveau, Dickie Moore and Maurice Richard while the blueliners selected were Larry Robinson and Doug Harvey
- The government of Canada honoured Doug Harvey in 2000 with his image placed on a Canadian postage stamp
- One of Harvey's favourite pastime was fishing. His fishing trip included the like of Maurice Richard, Toe Blake and Gerry McNeil to name a few

Miscellaneous:

- ''As a kid I played my hockey in Notre Dame de Grace Park, Doug’s home base. He was playing in the Forum by then but came out at least once a week, put on his skates, threw a puck on the ice and challenged all of us to get it off him. I will always remember how we scrambled around as he deked in and out of the ten or twelve of us laughing the whole time, as we never did get that damn puck away from him. - Kevin Hunter

- ''I remember visiting him in the hospital and he was usually in good spirits. One time I was in the corridor and I heard laughter coming from his room. Inside, Bobby Orr and Don Cherry were there cheering up my dad.'' - Doug Harvey Jr.

- Always modest about his ability, Harvey once said he couldn't rate himself as a player because: ''I've never seen myself play''.


Signing &Trades:

June 13, 1961: Traded to the New York Rangers by the Montreal Canadiens for Lou Fontinato (NHL)
November 26, 1963: Signed as a free agent by the Quebec Aces (AHL)
June 10, 1965: Signed as a free agent by Baltimore Clippers (AHL)
December 23, 1966: Traded to the Providence Bruins for cash (AHL). He activated a contract clause that allowed him to become a free agent if traded by the Baltimore Clippers (AHL)
January 6, 1967: Signed with the Detroit Red Wings, but except two games, played with the Pittsburgh Hornets (AHL)
June 1, 1967: Signed as a free agent with the St-Louis Blues and named playing coach of the Kansas City Blues (CPHL)

Coaching:

SeasonPosition/TeamLeagueGWLTOutcome
1961-62Player - Head CoachNHL702632124th in standing
 New York RangersPlayoffs624 Lost semi-final vs. Toronto Maple Leafs
1967-68Player - Head CoachCPHL703129102nd North Division
 Kansas City BluesPlayoffs743 Lost semi-final vs. Fort Worth Wings
1969-70Ass. CoachNHL     
 Los Angeles Kings      
1969-70Head CoachQJMHL16412  
 Laval Saints      
1973-74Ass. CoachWHA     
 Houston Aeros      
1974-75Ass. CoachWHA     
 Houston Aeros      

Abbreviation:

AHL: American Hockey League
CPHL: Central Professional Hockey League
MLB: Major League Baseball
NHL: National Hockey League
QJHL: Quebec Junior Hockey League
QJMHL: Quebec Junior Major Hockey League
WHA: World Hockey Association

Youtube Videos:


Other Videos:
http://video.stars.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=21742

Internet Sites:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...t=ByName#photo
http://www.sihrhockey.org/member_pla...player_id=4925
http://www.sportshall.ca/accessible/...file.php?i=249
http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2006...ug-harvey.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Ha...29#cite_note-0
http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Doug-Harvey
http://thehockeywriters.com/doug-har...t-of-them-all/
h ttp://bleacherreport/articles/300242-doug-harvey-one-of-the-best-ever-to-play-the-game
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/27/ob...l-of-fame.html
http://denniskanemontrealcanadiens.w...g-doug-harvey/

*Retroactive Award attributed by Ultimate Hockey



---

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Being the only player to be a captain for a cup winning team for two different organizations has to count for something when it comes to leadership, doesn't it?
If given the circumstances Messier, a player like Messier would of definitely have done the same. Messier was one of the best leader of All-Time, but Beliveau and a player like Milt Schmidt were definitely better leaders.

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02-01-2011, 10:01 AM
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Solid post ^

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02-01-2011, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
This is a pretty cool site.

Over the last couple of days, I've learned that:

Messier was overrated.

Gretzky was a product of his time.

Crosby has had a better career to date than Mario.

Joe Sakic was not that valuable to his team.

Brodeur is overrated.

I'm learning a lot about the game from the historians here.

(None of the above is an exaggeration. Citations offered upon request.)
Agreed.

I have also learned that Guy Lafleur was merely a product of his teams and had little to no talent himself.

Jean Beliveau's leadership skills are nil and any half wit could have won with his teams.

Bobby Rousseau is an all-time great, Henri Richard and Yvan Cournoyer are amongst the elite of all-time when it comes to purely offensive players.

The NHL pre-1990 was a worthless farce because there were thousands of better Euros not allowed to come over before that.

Yzerman is a bum.

Messier player on the same line as Gretzky, Anderson, Kurri and Coffey. The Oilers used four forwards at all times...

The Pittsburgh Penguins have had nothing but limey goofs on their roster except for Lemieux and Jagr.

Jagr is the third best player of all-time but on a talent basis he is #1.

Gretzky wouldn't outscore Wade Belak in today's NHL.

It goes on and on. The things I never knew.

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02-01-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
Agreed.

I have also learned that Guy Lafleur was merely a product of his teams and had little to no talent himself.

Jean Beliveau's leadership skills are nil and any half wit could have won with his teams.

Bobby Rousseau is an all-time great, Henri Richard and Yvan Cournoyer are amongst the elite of all-time when it comes to purely offensive players.

The NHL pre-1990 was a worthless farce because there were thousands of better Euros not allowed to come over before that.

Yzerman is a bum.

Messier player on the same line as Gretzky, Anderson, Kurri and Coffey. The Oilers used four forwards at all times...

The Pittsburgh Penguins have had nothing but limey goofs on their roster except for Lemieux and Jagr.

Jagr is the third best player of all-time but on a talent basis he is #1.

Gretzky wouldn't outscore Wade Belak in today's NHL.

It goes on and on. The things I never knew.
I've also learned that every single member of the late 70's Hab dynasty was a product of the team he was on. Every single last one of them was only good because they played with similar 'product of the team' guys. Yes, it's confusing.

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02-01-2011, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Jagr is was bigger and stronger than Messier and Potvin and although he never hit or fought, he would never be intimidated by Messier or Potvin. Not many players took the abuse and physical punishment that Jagr took in the 1990's and he was still the premier offensive player of the 90's.
He was stronger than Denis Potvin? You never saw the man play, how would you know?

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02-01-2011, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I've also learned that every single member of the late 70's Hab dynasty was a product of the team he was on. Every single last one of them was only good because they played with similar 'product of the team' guys. Yes, it's confusing.
Good point. I guess the Habs managed to scrape together a bunch of guys who alone were useless sacks of crap but together were a dynasty.

Most amazing, we've learned all of these new things from a guy who never saw the majority of these players play. Impressive.

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02-01-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
He was stronger than Denis Potvin? You never saw the man play, how would you know?
Potvin - 6 feet tall, 205 pounds
Jagr - 6 feet 3 inches, 240 pounds

you tell me.

Just because Jagr did not hit does not mean he wasn't strong. Actually, he is one of the strongest players of all time, in his prime it was almost impossible to take the puck from him.

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02-01-2011, 01:21 PM
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Kinda hard to disagree with that statement, dude.
well, i think that's a question of methodology.

personally, i'm not too concerned with what-ifs, though i don't completely disregard them either. but then my interest in hockey history is not about "objectively" knowing who the greatest players of all time are, 1 through 200, so much as i like to think about who did what under the circumstances that actually existed. to me, what did happen is always more important that what could have happened.

so maybe, in an alternate universe where brodeur was drafted by hartford, he may not have had a hall of fame career. but on the other hand, if calgary and new jersey hadn't traded picks that year, maybe he would have gone to that flames team with fleury, macinnis, roberts, et al., and they could have won another cup before that group was torn apart. who knows?

in the end, fortuitous circumstances don't diminish for me what brodeur did, which is put together one of the ten best careers in goaltending history. i don't count cups and put him ahead of hasek obviously, but i do have him ahead of belfour. i mean, brodeur does get credit for not only for his on-ice performance but also for being a good team guy who bought into what new jersey was doing and never making it about him-- even this year when they started hedberg ahead of him. how long would belfour have lasted with lou?

and that's not even getting into how brodeur, with his puck-playing ability and ability to perform at the same level whether he faces 20 shots or 40 shots, was also the perfect goalie for those great devils teams.

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02-01-2011, 01:57 PM
  #145
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When I see you say things like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
in the end, fortuitous circumstances don't diminish for me what brodeur did, which is put together one of the ten best careers in goaltending history. .
It means you're not part of the problem I was talking about.

I'm more worried about the kids who think he has to be #1, and it's not even close.

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02-01-2011, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Potvin - 6 feet tall, 205 pounds
Jagr - 6 feet 3 inches, 240 pounds

you tell me.

Just because Jagr did not hit does not mean he wasn't strong. Actually, he is one of the strongest players of all time, in his prime it was almost impossible to take the puck from him.
Bigger does not mean stronger.

You make an interesting point though because the other Jammy fan has been saying the same thing about not being able to take the puck off of Jagr. You do realize that Messier was pretty difficult to knock off of the puck himself right? Its not like Jagr was some magical entity who dwarfed all in that department. When you are talking about the top 25 players ever or so, they could all hold onto the puck at will whether it by using speed, stickhandling or even power.

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02-01-2011, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
Bigger does not mean stronger.

You make an interesting point though because the other Jammy fan has been saying the same thing about not being able to take the puck off of Jagr. You do realize that Messier was pretty difficult to knock off of the puck himself right? Its not like Jagr was some magical entity who dwarfed all in that department. When you are talking about the top 25 players ever or so, they could all hold onto the puck at will whether it by using speed, stickhandling or even power.
Being a top 25 player does not mean you can automatically hold on the puck.

Jagr is considered by many to be the toughest player of all time to knock off the puck.

It wasn't just his stickhandling but his shielding of the puck along the boards that allowed him to always hold on the puck.

He would use his strong lower body to do so.
Quote:
ASSETS: Possesses two of the strongest legs ever seen on a hockey player. Has incredible instincts. Is equally strong setting up linemates or finishing.
http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/...player.cgi?343

It's not only "jammy fans" as you like to call them that say this about Jagr. It's pretty much anybody that watched him play.

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02-01-2011, 03:00 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
Bigger does not mean stronger.

You make an interesting point though because the other Jammy fan has been saying the same thing about not being able to take the puck off of Jagr. You do realize that Messier was pretty difficult to knock off of the puck himself right? Its not like Jagr was some magical entity who dwarfed all in that department. When you are talking about the top 25 players ever or so, they could all hold onto the puck at will whether it by using speed, stickhandling or even power.
Jagr is however, one of the most difficult players ever to knock the puck away from - better at that than Messier for sure, though Messier was at a high level in that department.

Jagr was better offensively in peak, prime and career than Messier - no doubt about it. Messier makes up a lot of ground with playoffs, all-around play and intangibles but I'm not sure it is enough to close that offensive gap, which is ultimately the most weighted factor for a forward.

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02-01-2011, 03:07 PM
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Only as a leader.

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02-01-2011, 03:21 PM
  #150
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
When I see you say things like this:



It means you're not part of the problem I was talking about.

I'm more worried about the kids who think he has to be #1, and it's not even close.
fair enough. i suppose you're not part of the problem that i was talking about either.

but i think the position that trottier was referring to was the kids who say, "let's be reality, brodeur suxxx. without devils and trap, he is cloutier/backup/AHL."

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