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Gudbranson suspended indefinitely UPDATE: 8 games

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Old
01-29-2011, 07:21 PM
  #51
asleepinthechapel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
You only understood 25% of what I said. I'll clarify: I wasn't blaming DT or scouting. They chose the right guy at #3 and probably many right guys after that. DT has a system that makes decision making a higher percentage play.

The part you got somewhat right, and thought funny, is that yes I really think our player development sucks. Both in the minors and on the big club. This is probably our biggest weakness. However, I don't think Guds is ruined. You're funny. In a strange way.

Player development falls on coaching, which is where our current weakness is. This team needs real leadership in coaching. People who know what they are doing, in every area, across the board. So that we can take advantage of the great draft picks that were made by DT and his team.
So what part did I not understand exactly? I'm pretty sure I nailed it, you just didn't properly articulate your argument.
"DeBoer doesn't like toughness". That's quite a statement, prove it. You honestly think DB is going to fundamentally alter the way Gud plays?

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01-29-2011, 10:04 PM
  #52
adam graves
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
So what part did I not understand exactly? I'm pretty sure I nailed it, you just didn't properly articulate your argument.
"DeBoer doesn't like toughness". That's quite a statement, prove it. You honestly think DB is going to fundamentally alter the way Gud plays?
He didnt like boynton.

there was no retaliation during the game against the habs in Booth I and he sat tarnasky the rest of period 2 after Booth II.

He consistently underplays Hordachuck despite him coming out and doing everything to give us momentum ( i guess PD is afraid to blow a lead lol)

Hes meek himself behind the bench with refs etc.

Prove he promotes toughness.

PS im not overly concerned he will alter the way Gud will play next year as i am confident PD wont be here....

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01-29-2011, 11:11 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
So what part did I not understand exactly? I'm pretty sure I nailed it, you just didn't properly articulate your argument.
"DeBoer doesn't like toughness". That's quite a statement, prove it. You honestly think DB is going to fundamentally alter the way Gud plays?
1. You implied I was blaming DT -- I wasn't and I don't. In the past our draft selection has been poor, now it is improved.

2. I don't think Guds is "ruined" (you said I did).

3. I do think our player development is poor and needs to be improved. You got that. It was half of a half that I was saying, which is 25%. Far from nailing it. Silver lining is that it leaves a lot of growth potential on your part.

4. I never said anything in my post about PDB not liking toughness. However, it turns out to have been a lucky guess on your part. PDB lost my respect regarding toughness the first game against Philly after Booth concussion. PDB is not about tough physical play.


Last edited by angry_treefrog: 01-29-2011 at 11:32 PM.
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01-29-2011, 11:24 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Hip to be Square View Post
Right on.
Right on? If what Santos said is true, that would be horrible for this organization. It would just go to show that we still suck at drafting, as an organization.

This franchise hasn't made the playoffs in a decade. To say that no 18-19 year old player can play here because...well, he's a teenager?...is beyond silly.

Look at the difference the 18-year old is making in Carolina this year...

Perhaps instead of being worried about a player's age, they should just focus on drafting quality players ready to contribute...as soon as possible.

I highly doubt what Fialkov said is true (and it was Fialkov, considering there were no quotes in the article).

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01-30-2011, 02:25 PM
  #55
asleepinthechapel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
He didnt like boynton.

there was no retaliation during the game against the habs in Booth I and he sat tarnasky the rest of period 2 after Booth II.

He consistently underplays Hordachuck despite him coming out and doing everything to give us momentum ( i guess PD is afraid to blow a lead lol)

Hes meek himself behind the bench with refs etc.

Prove he promotes toughness.

PS im not overly concerned he will alter the way Gud will play next year as i am confident PD wont be here....
McCabe fought Richards at the next match up.
You really think he didn't like Boynton because Boynton was tough? I do not see the logic.
Giving five minutes to Hordichuk is not underplaying him. This is the norm, if anything. Check his career statistics.
I never claimed he was a promoter of toughness. I'm arguing that it stems from the players themselves, much more so than the coach. I would have no problem with PBD leaving at the end of the year. I have just come to the conclusion he receives much unwarranted blame.

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01-30-2011, 02:40 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
1. You implied I was blaming DT -- I wasn't and I don't. In the past our draft selection has been poor, now it is improved.

2. I don't think Guds is "ruined" (you said I did).

3. I do think our player development is poor and needs to be improved. You got that. It was half of a half that I was saying, which is 25%. Far from nailing it. Silver lining is that it leaves a lot of growth potential on your part.

4. I never said anything in my post about PDB not liking toughness. However, it turns out to have been a lucky guess on your part. PDB lost my respect regarding toughness the first game against Philly after Booth concussion. PDB is not about tough physical play.
h c'mon, there are so many recent examples of Panthers passing up on a better guy, there can only be 3 possible explanations: our scouting sucks, or our player development sucks, or both. This year it looks like "player development" deserves to be highlighted for "goat of the year" award.

Okay, this is what you replied to after I said "Hindsight 20/20" to
"Panthers' top pick: headed for minor league suspension
Hurricanes' top pick: headed to NHL all-star game. "

How in the world does that imply that you think our draft selections have improved? You're completely contradicting yourself. How is one to extract that you think we have an "improved" draft selection from this?
Ruined was a hyperbole- I personally think it's extreme to think that player development has played any sort of detrimental role on Guds in a season that has yet to be finished.

I'm not quite sure you fully articulated how you felt- my comprehension is just fine. I'm just not a mind-reader.

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01-30-2011, 03:39 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
McCabe fought Richards at the next match up.
You really think he didn't like Boynton because Boynton was tough? I do not see the logic.
Giving five minutes to Hordichuk is not underplaying him. This is the norm, if anything. Check his career statistics. I never claimed he was a promoter of toughness. I'm arguing that it stems from the players themselves, much more so than the coach. I would have no problem with PBD leaving at the end of the year. I have just come to the conclusion he receives much unwarranted blame.
It's not how often Hordichuck is played that is the issue it's WHEN DB decides to play him or bench him. DB just plays him like he's another one of his more skilled players and benches him when they need him the most. Gudbranson should be fine though because he's not an enforcer like Hordichuck, just really tough.

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01-30-2011, 03:44 PM
  #58
adam graves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
McCabe fought Richards at the next match up.
You really think he didn't like Boynton because Boynton was tough? I do not see the logic.
Giving five minutes to Hordichuk is not underplaying him. This is the norm, if anything. Check his career statistics.
I never claimed he was a promoter of toughness. I'm arguing that it stems from the players themselves, much more so than the coach. I would have no problem with PBD leaving at the end of the year. I have just come to the conclusion he receives much unwarranted blame.
I accept alot what you say, and think our differences are not great (although i find PD gets as much unwarranted credit as unwarranted blame, we have a thread for that).

I agree hordi's history of 5 min averages are true.. IMHO he has earned more time here; and what do we have to lose except adding more toughness, making us harder to play against, and giving us a little momentum opportunities? Since our coach has no charisman, and most of our players are not tough as you yourself state, hordi give us that. And from the year ive watched him here, AITC, he has not been much of a liability..he is actually not a bad hockey player.
let him play 4th shifts through the 3rd period; can they get worse?

whatcha think, Asleep?


Last edited by adam graves: 01-30-2011 at 03:49 PM.
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01-30-2011, 05:06 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
McCabe fought Richards at the next match up.
You really think he didn't like Boynton because Boynton was tough? I do not see the logic.
Giving five minutes to Hordichuk is not underplaying him. This is the norm, if anything. Check his career statistics.
I never claimed he was a promoter of toughness. I'm arguing that it stems from the players themselves, much more so than the coach. I would have no problem with PBD leaving at the end of the year. I have just come to the conclusion he receives much unwarranted blame.
It should really read:

McCabe "fought" Richards at the next match up.

That's the whole point regarding PDB's toughness, I guess you don't get it. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, I just completely disagree.

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01-30-2011, 05:53 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
It should really read:

McCabe "fought" Richards at the next match up.

That's the whole point regarding PDB's toughness, I guess you don't get it. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, I just completely disagree.
they shouldnt have fought him, they should have malled him...but thats just me..

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01-30-2011, 07:01 PM
  #61
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Hardly worth an indefinite suspension.

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01-30-2011, 07:34 PM
  #62
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I think that is suspension worthy.. Pretty dirty elbow!... does tell alot about the kid though... cant wait to see him playing here next year!!!

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01-31-2011, 02:25 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
It should really read:

McCabe "fought" Richards at the next match up.

That's the whole point regarding PDB's toughness, I guess you don't get it. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, I just completely disagree.
I'm confused. What is a fight to you?
I figure if McCabe was throwing punches as well as taking them, it qualifies as a fight.
Do you agree with graves? PBD should fully endorse mauling the other team at the risk of another Steve Moore-esque incident?
How is McCabe's fight inadequate?

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01-31-2011, 02:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
I accept alot what you say, and think our differences are not great (although i find PD gets as much unwarranted credit as unwarranted blame, we have a thread for that).

I agree hordi's history of 5 min averages are true.. IMHO he has earned more time here; and what do we have to lose except adding more toughness, making us harder to play against, and giving us a little momentum opportunities? Since our coach has no charisman, and most of our players are not tough as you yourself state, hordi give us that. And from the year ive watched him here, AITC, he has not been much of a liability..he is actually not a bad hockey player.
let him play 4th shifts through the 3rd period; can they get worse?

whatcha think, Asleep?
Here's the dilemma: PBD is still trying to win games.
In order for the team to win a game you have to score goals.
To accomplish this PBD double shifts our top goal scorer, Booth, in place of Hordichuk.
The logic is undeniable.

To be completely frank, I wouldn't care if he gave Hordichuk 30 minute shifts. I would like to get a high draft pick this year and hopefully a new coach next year.

However, I see your point. I'm dubious as to how much "toughness" we truly gain with Hordichuk on the ice, and how that in turn would truly improve our chances of winning.

I view this in incredibly, simplistic black-and-white terms:
Goal Scorer on the ice = Goals
Enforcer on the ice = Fights

You need goals to win a game.

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01-31-2011, 02:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
I'm confused. What is a fight to you?
I figure if McCabe was throwing punches as well as taking them, it qualifies as a fight.
Do you agree with graves? PBD should fully endorse mauling the other team at the risk of another Steve Moore-esque incident?
How is McCabe's fight inadequate?
lets be clear...i dont condone bertuzziesque sucker punching and driving him to the ground face up....i do wish at the time of the incident everyone on the ice showed their displeasure, and since that didnt happen, at the next matchup Someone handling Richards to Booths satisfaction. Trust me it wasnt.

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01-31-2011, 02:53 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Here's the dilemma: PBD is still trying to win games.
In order for the team to win a game you have to score goals.
To accomplish this PBD double shifts our top goal scorer, Booth, in place of Hordichuk.
The logic is undeniable.

To be completely frank, I wouldn't care if he gave Hordichuk 30 minute shifts. I would like to get a high draft pick this year and hopefully a new coach next year.

However, I see your point. I'm dubious as to how much "toughness" we truly gain with Hordichuk on the ice, and how that in turn would truly improve our chances of winning.

I view this in incredibly, simplistic black-and-white terms:
Goal Scorer on the ice = Goals
Enforcer on the ice = Fights

You need goals to win a game.
Well said.

That brings us though to the argument we have made at the arena..

does double shifting booth lead to more goals, or a more tired, and at risk booth?

Whats your opinion on that?

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01-31-2011, 03:04 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
does double shifting booth lead to more goals, or a more tired, and at risk booth?
that?
Great identification.
This is certainly the primary point of contention.
At this point in time I feel as though I cannot properly assess this situation in its totality. The number of goals Booth has scored on the fourth line is unknown to me. If anyone does know the answer to this, it would be greatly appreciated if it were shared.
I would assume that as a professional athlete Booth can handle the extra time allotted to him- but that question is best suited for Booth himself.

Does this increase the probability Booth gets injured? Certainly. Is he at more of a risk playing on the 4th than the 1st? Doubt it. Every time he takes the ice it does. Should we limit his first line ice time for the sole reason it would put him at risk? No.
Booth gets paid to play, we should get our money's worth.


Last edited by asleepinthechapel: 01-31-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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01-31-2011, 03:20 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Great identification.
This is certainly the primary point of contention.
At this point in time I feel as though I cannot properly assess this situation in its totality. The number of goals Booth has scored on the fourth line is unknown to me. If anyone does know the answer to this, it would be greatly appreciated if it were shared.
I would assume that as a professional athlete Booth can handle the extra time allotted to him- but that question is best suited for Booth himself.

Does this increase the probability Booth gets injured? Certainly. Is he at more of a risk playing on the 4th than the 1st? Doubt it. Every time he takes the ice it does. Should we limit his first line ice time for the sole reason it would put him at risk? No.
Booth gets paid to play, we should get our money's worth.
At the same time, Hordichuk can actually play hockey and score goals!! If we were talking about Belak or MacIntyre then I would agree with the goal scorer= goals and Enforcers=fights comment. While I agree that Booth is a better scorer then Hordichuk,that doesn't mean Hordichuk won't score any goals while on the ice. We need Hordichuk and the rest of the 4th line to create energy and spark to get the rest of the team psyched and wanting to win.

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01-31-2011, 03:21 PM
  #69
adam graves
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Great identification.
This is certainly the primary point of contention.
At this point in time I feel as though I cannot properly assess this situation. The number of goals Booth has scored on the fourth line is unknown to me. If anyone does know the answer to this, it would be greatly appreciated if it were shared.
I would assume that as a professional athlete Booth can handle the extra time allotted to him- but that question is best suited for Booth himself.

Does this increase the probability Booth gets injured? Certainly. Is he at more of a risk playing on the 4th than the 1st? Doubt it. Every time he takes the ice it does. Should we limit his first line ice time for the sole reason it would put him at risk? No.
Booth gets paid to play, we should get our money's worth.
Not worried about the risk hes taking in his normal shifts on whatever line hes on; we should get our moneys worth in that regard.

My question is when double shifted is he at more risk and is it worthwhile, for the type of player he is. You answered that well, and i too would love to see his stats when double shifted.
It doesnt "appear" that for a speed player like him, it works well, taking away his speed advantage on either line. My original point is i rather see hordachuck continue with those shifts, adding what he adds which is more then given credit, and have booth at his best on his normal 3rd period shift. IMHO.

excellent debate here, encompasing what does horduchuk bring, the value of booth, and PD lines....

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01-31-2011, 06:57 PM
  #70
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Booth is double-shifted because we don't have a 4th line.

Hordichuk can complain about his minutes all he wants...bottom line is, enforcers don't get much ice time in today's NHL. He'll get his minutes in games when he's more needed (and this has been proven, in certain games).

Also, it would help DeBoer out if Steve Bernier felt like playing hockey.

If we had a more physical fourth line capable of hitting the opponent/throwing the body, DeBoer probably wouldn't double-shift guys.

This is on Tallon, and I'm sure he'll correct this once he achieves his primary focus of acquiring some first line talent.

Aside from first line talent though, this team definitely needs to get a bit bigger and more physical on the 4th line.

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02-01-2011, 03:52 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Booth is double-shifted because we don't have a 4th line.



Aside from first line talent though, this team definitely needs to get a bit bigger and more physical on the 4th line.
Agreed, but I think the team needs to be bigger and more physical across the board. This is hard to achieve on the top lines unless you have a unique player like Lucic, Downie or Perry, but can be more easily achieved through the blueline. This is where Gudbranson will have a massive impact on the team. If he can be a Pronger-type Defenseman, who plays over 20 mins and is just a mean SOB, then overall team toughness will be drastically increased, not just for 2 or 3 minutes a game. I honestly am not concerned with Gudbransons offensive game at all - obviously if he turns into a nice point producer than great - but if he is a physical beast in our backend, making space for the rest of the team and intimidating the other, than I will be more than happy.

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