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ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

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Old
02-01-2011, 03:41 AM
  #51
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Coffey is essentially the modern Cyclone Taylor, only you can't put him at forward.
I agreed with everything you said until this last sentence. I feel Taylor was a more complete (and versatile) player than Coffey.

Can't wait to read biography on both of them

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02-01-2011, 03:45 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Clearly. Coffey actually got Hart votes three years in a row at his peak (no mean feat on those Oilers teams what with Gretzky and all...), peaking at 4th in the voting in 85-86. He actually got a 1st place vote and four 4th place votes that season, which means that even a few writers outside of Edmonton thought he was better than Lemieux at the time, and when 2-way play is taken into account, he may well have been. Again, considering that he played in Gretzky's shadow, that's damned impressive.
.
I think we have to calm our enthousiasm about Coffey here , Lemieux was better than Coffey the moment he stepped on his first shift in the NHL , and it's not that surprising Coffey could have votes , journalists didn't really like Lemieux his first few years and he probably got a couple of unfair biased opinion against him.

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02-01-2011, 03:56 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I never saw Coffey play with Edmonton, but I would call him an offensive defenseman before a two-way defenseman.
Notice I said 2-way player. I see Coffey as a modern rover - as a guy who exists somewhere in-between defenseman and forward. When I talk about him as a 2-way player, I am talking about his overall contribution to the goal differential of the team, irrespective of position. This is why I compare him to forwards rather than defensemen...because the comparison is ultimately more accurate.

Here's the question: if you take Paul Coffey and Bryan Trottier in a year where they score the same number of points, who contributes more to a winning team? Trottier was a great defensive forward, but no one can take seriously that he did more or better work defensively than Coffey, a defenseman. Trottier brings grit and leadership, yes, but I have another 23 picks to fill those roles on my team. The question is: which player makes the greater 2-way contribution to the team? It's pretty clearly Paul Coffey.

Quote:
I would love to see the offensive comparative between Kelly and Coffey. I'll highly suspect that Coffey has better credential (Although Kelly was in another world defensively)
Considering how much time Kelly seems to have spent at left wing (on the Howe line, no less), I think it's unlikely that they are really all that close offensively, as defensemen.

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02-01-2011, 04:09 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I think we have to calm our enthousiasm about Coffey here , Lemieux was better than Coffey the moment he stepped on his first shift in the NHL , and it's not that surprising Coffey could have votes , journalists didn't really like Lemieux his first few years and he probably got a couple of unfair biased opinion against him.
You do realize that in 85-86, Coffey finished 3rd in NHL scoring, only three points behind Mario Lemieux? It is actually a very valid argument as to who was the better overall player at that point (note that Lemieux hadn't yet hit his true peak while Coffey was at his absolute best). On the one hand, Coffey had a lot more offensive help in putting up those numbers, but on the other hand, he did a hell of a lot more in his own zone than Lemieux, who was pretty disinterested defensively for his first few years in the league.

You also realize that Coffey outscored Lemieux by 21 points during Mario's first year in the league, and won the Norris with almost three times as many 1st place votes as a peak Ray Bourque? It's not at all clear that Mario was better "from his first shift".

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02-01-2011, 04:12 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I would love to see the offensive comparative between Kelly and Coffey. I'll highly suspect that Coffey has better credential.
I just crunched the numbers - you guys can take what you want

Percentages are compared to the 2nd place scorer.

Paul Coffey
1982 – 1st (105%)
1983 – 1st (128%)
1984 – 1st (131%)
1985 – 1st (141%)
1986 – 1st (168%)
1987 – 5th (83%)
1988 – 5th (81%)
1989 – 1st (151%)
1990 – 1st (114%)
1991 – 3rd (99%)
1992 – 6th (85%)
1993 – 1st (101%)
1994 – 6th (87%)
1995 – 1st (135%)
1996 – 3rd (90%)

Red Kelly
1948 – 4th (91%)
1949 – 5th (70%)
1950 – 1st (114%)
1951 – 1st (151%)
1952 – 1st (134%)
1953 – 1st (135%)
1954 – 1st (120%)
1955 – 2nd (100%)
1956 – 2nd (100%)
1957 – 3rd (85%)
1958 – 3rd (76%)
1959 – 10th (53%)

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02-01-2011, 04:24 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I just crunched the numbers - you guys can take what you want
It is important to note that Kelly spent a good deal of time at left wing during his Detroit years, including a 26 game stint on the Howe line during the 55-56 season. The relative-to-2nd-place-comparison also distorts things a bit because Coffey's competition in defenseman scoring was generally Ray Bourque and/or Denis Potvin, while Kelly's competition was Doug Harvey and an undrafted player. Kelly's competitors were fine offensive defensemen, but not on the level of Bourque and Potvin. The fact that Kelly played the second half of his career at center (and thus lost years for the above comparison) also distorts things in Coffey's favor, I suppose. Basically, the comparison is a bit of a mess.

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02-01-2011, 04:43 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I'll agree with the rest of the group that Nighbor deserve to be acknowledge in the same group as Schmidt, Apps, Yzerman and Sakic. He was just a fantastic, all-around centerman.

A team with Milt Schmidt and Frank Nighbor down the middle is definitely scary.

Schmidt and Nighbor definitely look like comparable players. Schmidt was definitely the most abrasive and physical of the two. The better leader too. Both were supreme defensive forward. I'm not entirely sure of Nighbor offensive credential, but he might have been better than Schmidt. I know Schmidt was fantastic in the playoffs, but how about Nighbor? What else could be compared?
by the usual ways of comparing players across eras, i think nighbor was better in the playoffs.
he was the best player of the ottawa dynasty, and was also an important part of the 1915 vancouver millionaires. tied taylor for points in the 1915 playoffs, and his defensive play at LW was also very good. i think his 5 rings were the most of any player when he retired, and may not have been exceeded until maurice richard.

nighbor was 3rd in career playoff points when he retired. led the playoffs in goals in '20, assists in '15 and '21, and in points in '15 and '21. over a point per game in his career in the finals.

but more importantly, nighbor was the heart of the ottawa senators. ottawa relied more on systems and team play on both sides of the puck than other teams of the era, and were often described with words like machine, systematic, clockwork, etc. nighbor was the key to their style of play, which is probably why he still appeared in hart voting late in his career when he scored less than 15p.

even though ottawa routinely played a passive defensive system, especially in the '20s, they tended to allow many more goals when nighbor was out. in his prime, nighbor was one of the best offensive players, but later became mostly a playmaking defensive F. sometimes he was basically a 3rd d-man.

in his prime seasons in the NHL ('18-'21), nighbor was 3rd in points per game, 4th in goals per game and 1st in assists per game.

pre NHL rankings:
'13: 4th in NHA (rookie season)
'14: injured, on pace for 3rd in PCHA
'15: 3rd in PCHA
'16: 7th in NHA
'17: 1st in NHA

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Old
02-01-2011, 05:06 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
The Peterborough Petes will select: C/LW: Frank Nighbor

Very pleased to add him to my team and to my second line!

I'll make sure to PM the next guy. Bio will come later.
Nice pick. Nighbor was the guy I was targeting when I pitched that trade to you.

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Old
02-01-2011, 05:21 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Notice I said 2-way player. I see Coffey as a modern rover - as a guy who exists somewhere in-between defenseman and forward. When I talk about him as a 2-way player, I am talking about his overall contribution to the goal differential of the team, irrespective of position. This is why I compare him to forwards rather than defensemen...because the comparison is ultimately more accurate.

Here's the question: if you take Paul Coffey and Bryan Trottier in a year where they score the same number of points, who contributes more to a winning team? Trottier was a great defensive forward, but no one can take seriously that he did more or better work defensively than Coffey, a defenseman. Trottier brings grit and leadership, yes, but I have another 23 picks to fill those roles on my team. The question is: which player makes the greater 2-way contribution to the team? It's pretty clearly Paul Coffey.

Considering how much time Kelly seems to have spent at left wing (on the Howe line, no less), I think it's unlikely that they are really all that close offensively, as defensemen.
- To me, a two way player is someone who can play on both end of the ice. Coffey is no doubt the second or third best offensive defenseman of All-Time, but he was mediocre at the best in his own zone. I understand that, just like Maurice Richard, his play on his offensive zone helped the fact that the other team was far less in his own zone that him in the offensive zone. Definitely a plus.

- I would argue that Trottier did a better job defensively than Coffey, absolutely. It's not fair to judge them that way, because it's obvious that Coffey had more opportunity to make a play defensively, because he was a defenseman. I think a fair comparison would be: Would you take Coffey and an average centerman over Trottier and an average defenseman. I would take Trottier without thinking twice.

I would need quotes on the ''Considering how much time Kelly seems to have spent at left wing (on the Howe line, no less)''. Yes, it's well known that Kelly played part of the 1955-56 season on LW with the Red Wings (and was considered tremendou defensively), but I have yet to see multiple sources stating that he played numerous time as a LW during his whole tenure with the Wings. Not saying it was not the case, but I would just like some more info on what you're stating.

And for record, I am a big fan of Paul Coffey pick. I just don't feel he should be compare to Mark Messier and Bryan Trottier in term of overall value. Just like Dreakmur wrote earlier, I think alot of defenceman can make a claim as #11 All-Time (Actually, my list look pretty much like Dreak: I would say 1-9 is on a group, while Park is #10, close to Chelios #11. Paul Coffey is #12. Pilote #13 and so on)

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02-01-2011, 05:24 AM
  #60
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A forward bad in his zone hurt the team less than a dman bad in his zone.

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02-01-2011, 05:28 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
by the usual ways of comparing players across eras, i think nighbor was better in the playoffs.
he was the best player of the ottawa dynasty, and was also an important part of the 1915 vancouver millionaires. tied taylor for points in the 1915 playoffs, and his defensive play at LW was also very good. i think his 5 rings were the most of any player when he retired, and may not have been exceeded until maurice richard.

nighbor was 3rd in career playoff points when he retired. led the playoffs in goals in '20, assists in '15 and '21, and in points in '15 and '21. over a point per game in his career in the finals.

but more importantly, nighbor was the heart of the ottawa senators. ottawa relied more on systems and team play on both sides of the puck than other teams of the era, and were often described with words like machine, systematic, clockwork, etc. nighbor was the key to their style of play, which is probably why he still appeared in hart voting late in his career when he scored less than 15p.

even though ottawa routinely played a passive defensive system, especially in the '20s, they tended to allow many more goals when nighbor was out. in his prime, nighbor was one of the best offensive players, but later became mostly a playmaking defensive F. sometimes he was basically a 3rd d-man.

in his prime seasons in the NHL ('18-'21), nighbor was 3rd in points per game, 4th in goals per game and 1st in assists per game.

pre NHL rankings:
'13: 4th in NHA (rookie season)
'14: injured, on pace for 3rd in PCHA
'15: 3rd in PCHA
'16: 7th in NHA
'17: 1st in NHA
Milt Schmidt was a machine in the playoffs, so you're saying that Nighbor one of the best playoff performer of his generation, right? I know about a dozen GM know more on him than I do, so i just want to get a better overall picture of him.

Looking at his offensive stat though, I think Schmidt was a more productive player right?

I'm just trying to refine about where he should rank among centerman. I know some GM got him in high praise. Would some GM pick him over Schmidt? Apps? Sakic? Yzerman? Higher? And if so, what are your arguments.

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02-01-2011, 06:22 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Milt Schmidt was a machine in the playoffs, so you're saying that Nighbor one of the best playoff performer of his generation, right? I know about a dozen GM know more on him than I do, so i just want to get a better overall picture of him.

Looking at his offensive stat though, I think Schmidt was a more productive player right?
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Frank Nighbor was a stronger offensive contributor than Milt Schmidt. I'll start crunching the numbers, but I'm quite sure they'll show Nighbor with a distinct edge.

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02-01-2011, 06:29 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Frank Nighbor was a stronger offensive contributor than Milt Schmidt. I'll start crunching the numbers, but I'm quite sure they'll show Nighbor with a distinct edge.
Looking forward to it! Just have to remember the context in which Schmidt accomplish is offensive numbers.

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02-01-2011, 06:39 AM
  #64
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Here's Milt Schmidt:
Points – 1st(1940), 4th(1947), 4th(1950), 10th(1941), 10th(1952)
Goals – 2nd(1940), 6th(1947), 9th(1950), 12th(1939), 13th(1952)
Assists – 1st(1940), 3rd(1947), 4th(1941), 4th(1950), 12th(1949), 13th(1952), 13th(1953)

That's pretty easy to evaluate. He played in an era where there's no need to adjust anything. The only question is whether you account for the War Years or not.


Here's Frank Nighbor:
Points – 1st(1917), 3rd(1915), 3rd(1919), 3rd(1920), 4th(1913), 5th(1921), 7th(1916), 8th(1924), 8th(1926), 9th(1918)
Goals – 1st(1917), 2nd(1915), 3rd(1919), 3rd(1920), 4th(1913), 5th(1921), 7th(1916), 10th(1924)
Assists – 1st(1920), 1st(1926), 2nd(1917), 2nd(1919), 2nd(1921), 3rd(1924), 4th(1915), 6th(1918), 7th(1916), 8th(1922)

The problem here is that all of these totals were achieved during an era where talent was split between more than one league. The NHA, I think we can mostly agree, was about as strong as whatever was going on out west. There are 2 things we can do - we can double all his totals or we can use a some formula. Since I spend like a month working out my formula, I'll use that

Points - 1st, 5th, 5th, 6th, 10th
Goals - 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th, 10th
Assists - 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 9th, 10th


__________________________________________________ ___________________


You know what... they turned out much closer than I though they would. Based on the number, I would give Nighbor a slight edge.... but then there's the War Years. I would have to call it about even.

I'm very surprised!

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02-01-2011, 06:53 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Here's Milt Schmidt:
Points – 1st(1940), 4th(1947), 4th(1950), 10th(1941), 10th(1952)
Goals – 2nd(1940), 6th(1947), 9th(1950), 12th(1939), 13th(1952)
Assists – 1st(1940), 3rd(1947), 4th(1941), 4th(1950), 12th(1949), 13th(1952), 13th(1953)

That's pretty easy to evaluate. He played in an era where there's no need to adjust anything. The only question is whether you account for the War Years or not.


Here's Frank Nighbor:
Points – 1st(1917), 3rd(1915), 3rd(1919), 3rd(1920), 4th(1913), 5th(1921), 7th(1916), 8th(1924), 8th(1926), 9th(1918)
Goals – 1st(1917), 2nd(1915), 3rd(1919), 3rd(1920), 4th(1913), 5th(1921), 7th(1916), 10th(1924)
Assists – 1st(1920), 1st(1926), 2nd(1917), 2nd(1919), 2nd(1921), 3rd(1924), 4th(1915), 6th(1918), 7th(1916), 8th(1922)

The problem here is that all of these totals were achieved during an era where talent was split between more than one league. The NHA, I think we can mostly agree, was about as strong as whatever was going on out west. There are 2 things we can do - we can double all his totals or we can use a some formula. Since I spend like a month working out my formula, I'll use that

Points - 1st, 5th, 5th, 6th, 10th
Goals - 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th, 10th
Assists - 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 9th, 10th


__________________________________________________ ___________________


You know what... they turned out much closer than I though they would. Based on the number, I would give Nighbor a slight edge.... but then there's the War Years. I would have to call it about even.

I'm very surprised!
I admire the time you put up to come with your formula, I'm amaze (Actually, I think it's pretty much the best way to do it.)

- I'll accept the fact that Nighbor and Schmidt are pretty even offensively.
- They were pretty much equal defensively.
- They were pretty much two great playoff performer (Schmidt was a great shadower in the playoff, while Nighbor was bringing more offense perhaps?)
- Two speedy players.

What's left? You cannot argue that Schmidt was a strong and definite edge in term of overall toughness. I believe Schmidt is the second best leader of All-Time, so he gets the edge there (Not to say Nighbor was not a great leader)

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02-01-2011, 06:56 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I admire the time you put up to come with your formula, I'm amaze (Actually, I think it's pretty much the best way to do it.)

- I'll accept the fact that Nighbor and Schmidt are pretty even offensively.
- They were pretty much equal defensively.
- They were pretty much two great playoff performer (Schmidt was a great shadower in the playoff, while Nighbor was bringing more offense perhaps?)
- Two speedy players.

What's left? You cannot argue that Schmidt was a strong and definite edge in term of overall toughness. I believe Schmidt is the second best leader of All-Time, so he gets the edge there (Not to say Nighbor was not a great leader)
I think they are still on the same level, but, given my recent little bit of research, I'd take Schmidt ahead of Nighbor. (for now )

Only thing I dislike about my formula right now is that it stops at 10th. Nighbor could be 11th five times for all I know.... I'll go to top 20 probably this summer.

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02-01-2011, 06:58 AM
  #67
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A forward bad in his zone hurt the team less than a dman bad in his zone.
Luckily then when you have Coffey's speed, transition ability and long pass ability, you generally aren't in your zone much.

Coffey was no where near as bad defensively as people make him out to be. Not to say he was outstanding (and being in the company he is in this draft so far makes it stand out a bit more) but seriously he gets beat on these boards pretty unfairly by a crowd, the majority of which, never even saw him in his prime.

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02-01-2011, 07:00 AM
  #68
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Luckily then when you have Coffey's speed, transition ability and long pass ability, you generally aren't in your zone much.
Coffey's great when he has the puck. The problems happen when the other team has it....

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02-01-2011, 07:06 AM
  #69
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I think they are still on the same level, but, given my recent little bit of research, I'd take Schmidt ahead of Nighbor. (for now )

Only thing I dislike about my formula right now is that it stops at 10th. Nighbor could be 11th five times for all I know.... I'll go to top 20 probably this summer.
I'm all hear, I'm not even trying to make a case for Schmidt. I'm just trying to understand why Nighbor should be pick ahead of Schmidt and co. When Nalyd compare Nighbor to Clarke, Trottier and Messier, I'm wondering what I'm missing on him.

However, if you do by Top-20+, you've just got to give the benefit of the doubt for the War years of Schmidt. Even if you think he would of perform badly during those three years, he would of been a top-20 on every offensive stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian
Luckily then when you have Coffey's speed, transition ability and long pass ability, you generally aren't in your zone much.

Coffey was no where near as bad defensively as people make him out to be. Not to say he was outstanding (and being in the company he is in this draft so far makes it stand out a bit more) but seriously he gets beat on these boards pretty unfairly by a crowd, the majority of which, never even saw him in his prime.
He's was below average in his defensive zone, even in his prime. When you take into an ATD context, you definitely need to support him with a stelwart defensive defenseman (and there's throng of them in the first 6 or so round).

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02-01-2011, 07:14 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I'm all hear, I'm not even trying to make a case for Schmidt. I'm just trying to understand why Nighbor should be pick ahead of Schmidt and co. When Nalyd compare Nighbor to Clarke, Trottier and Messier, I'm wondering what I'm missing on him.
Even of he was as good offensively as I thought he was an hour ago, he still shouldn't be with Clarke, Trottier, and Messier.

I think having him with Yzerman, Sakic, Apps, and Schmidt is pretty fair to all 5 guys.

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02-01-2011, 07:25 AM
  #71
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Hey guys , just came back from the '' xxxxx says xxxxx is more talented than Gretzky '' thread , and I'm glad to be back here. *hug for everyone*


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 02-01-2011 at 07:42 AM.
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02-01-2011, 07:25 AM
  #72
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can someone post something about schmidt's defensive play?

i read it here, but nowhere else.

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02-01-2011, 07:31 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
- To me, a two way player is someone who can play on both end of the ice. Coffey is no doubt the second or third best offensive defenseman of All-Time, but he was mediocre at the best in his own zone. I understand that, just like Maurice Richard, his play on his offensive zone helped the fact that the other team was far less in his own zone that him in the offensive zone.
Comparing Coffey to Richard, who was known for circling at the blueline waiting for an outlet pass is...a little bit absurd, Eagle. We'll discuss this a little bit more later.

Quote:
I would argue that Trottier did a better job defensively than Coffey, absolutely. It's not fair to judge them that way, because it's obvious that Coffey had more opportunity to make a play defensively, because he was a defenseman.
This is a classic "having it both ways" argument. Why did Coffey have more opportunities to make defensive plays? Because of his listed position on the lineup card? There are 60 minutes in a hockey game, and in those 60 minutes every player makes a certain number of offensive and defensive plays. Paul Coffey, as a defenseman, produced on the same offensive level as many hall of fame forwards. Criticism of his defensive game is perfectly valid, but not to the point that we're comparing him to Maurice Richard or really any forward. Coffey was an imperfect defenseman...yes, but he made a ton of good defensive plays. A forward who scored like Coffey and made as many defensive plays as him would have a legitimate claim to being the greatest 2-way forward of all time.

Again: if Coffey and Trottier score the same number of points and Coffey makes more defensive plays, isn't he contributing more to his team winning? And seriously...if you think that Paul Coffey was worse defensively than any forward, you've got a debate on your hands. By the standards of a forward (which are the standards by which we judge him offensively), Coffey was a world-class defensive player.

Quote:
I think a fair comparison would be: Would you take Coffey and an average centerman over Trottier and an average defenseman. I would take Trottier without thinking twice.
Considering the clear and large effect Coffey's presence had on the scoring of Gretzky, Lemieux and one other ATD calibre center (I will demonstrate this all a bit later, though it is well-known), there is certainly a good argument for taking Coffey, as he's not only scoring his own points, but increasing the output of his forwards by quite a bit.

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Old
02-01-2011, 07:33 AM
  #74
BenchBrawl
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Everybody knows Richard was waiting for the Harvey feed.

I'm a Montreal Canadiens fan , a proud Quebecois and I think Richard is SLIGHTLY overrated.

And to the people not living to the beat of Montreal as I am since I'm born , strangely , there's a lot more Richard and Lafleur fanatics than Bιliveau for some reasons even if everybody respect him.There's a couple of stupid young people that hate Lafleur because he has a tendency to rightfully bash the habs for the past few years but except that everybody is crazy about this guy , especially people that were there in the 70s , they deeply loves him.Richard is a legend.But I rarely hear someone being crazy about Gros Bill.He probably wasn't as thrilling.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 02-01-2011 at 07:39 AM.
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02-01-2011, 07:37 AM
  #75
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Hey guys , just came back from the '' xxx says xxx is more talented than Gretzky '' thread , and I'm glad to be back here. *hug for everyone*
Please.

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