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Old
02-01-2011, 08:23 AM
  #26
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by Antropovsky View Post
I never was big on the Kessel trade, mostly because I thought he was exactly the opposite of a Burke player.

With that being said, he has 19 goals, and 34 points playing on a line with Joey Crabb (28 year old, career AHLer), and Tyler Bozak, who is a 2nd year undrafted player (whose looked like a shadow of the player he was last season).
It's impressive that Kessel has 19 goals and 34 points, playing with these linemates. How many points would D. Sedin have if he played with Crabb and Bozak, how about Heatley if he played with these two.....

Put Kessel on a line with H.Sedin and I guarantee he's playing at well over a point per game.
I love how Bozak is now a 2nd year undrafted player and last year he was on his way to becoming a 2nd line center and a "steal." Comical.

Kessels a 1st line talent worth a mid-late first round pick though, Ill give you that.

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Old
02-01-2011, 09:51 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
I love how Bozak is now a 2nd year undrafted player and last year he was on his way to becoming a 2nd line center and a "steal." Comical.

Kessels a 1st line talent worth a mid-late first round pick though, Ill give you that.
Alright, so you're telling me that because he was performing well last year in his rookie season, when no one else had seen him playing before that we were supposed to expect his play to fall off this much? It's alright, I didn't know that players who were performing poorly lose value...

Phaneuf suddenly went from being an elite defenceman to an "overpaid bum" in one season. Vinny is now on apparently an albatross contract because his play his gone down. People were saying that Iginla was done at the beginning of the year before he his play began to heat up. These were proven players, not just sophmores either, yeah it's natural to think we overstated Bozak's ability if he hits a huge slump.

On the flip side, you guys all had boners about Nathan Horton at the beginning of the year, now not so much. Don't try and play this off as something more than it is.

Also, on the Kessel could only get a mid-late first round pick business, let's look at precedent. A rental Hal Gill, Domonic Moore, Matt Cullen, Ales Kotalik, Raffi Torres etc got a 2nd round pick (+ another piece in some cases) at the deadline. Kovalchuk in February at 27ish years old, with rumours that he wanted to test the market and was demanding a 100 mill + contract got a 1st round pick, Top Prospect (Cormier), Rookie Stud at the time (Bergfors) and Top 4 defenseman with a slightly high salary (Oduya).

You're telling me that a 23 year old Kessel which serious break out potential under contract through 2014-2015 at $5.4 would only get a mid to late first? Give your head a shake...


Last edited by Loso: 02-01-2011 at 10:20 AM.
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Old
02-01-2011, 10:00 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Ripe4theSnipe View Post
Alright, so you're telling me that because he was performing well last year in his rookie season, when no one else had seen him playing before that we were supposed to expect his play to fall off this much? It's alright, I didn't know that players who were performing poorly lose value...

Phaneuf suddenly went from being an elite defenceman to an "overpaid bum" in one season. Vinny is know on apparently an albatross contract because his play his gone down. People were saying that Iginla was done at the beginning of the year before he his play began to heat up. These were proven players, not just sophmores either, yeah it's natural to think we overstated Bozak's ability if he hits a huge slump.

On the flip side, you guys all had boners about Nathan Horton at the beginning of the year, now not so much. Don't try and play this off as something more than it is.

Also, on the Kessel could only get a mid-late first round pick business, let's look at precedent. A rental Hal Gill, Domonic Moore, Matt Cullen, Ales Kotalik, Raffi Torres etc got a 2nd round pick (+ another piece in some cases) at the deadline. Kovalchuk in February at 27ish years old, with rumours that he wanted to test the market and was demanding a 100 mill + contract got a 1st round pick, Top Prospect (Cormier), Rookie Stud at the time (Bergfors) and Top 4 defenseman with a slightly high salary (Oduya).

You're telling me that a 23 year old Kessel which serious break out potential under contract through 2014-2015 at $5.4 would only get a mid to late first? Give your head a shake...
Silly Ripe4TheSnipe, trolls understand no logic.

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02-01-2011, 10:13 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
I love how Bozak is now a 2nd year undrafted player and last year he was on his way to becoming a 2nd line center and a "steal." Comical.

Kessels a 1st line talent worth a mid-late first round pick though, Ill give you that.
Someone please repost the Billy Madison clip here.

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Old
02-01-2011, 10:21 AM
  #30
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by Ripe4theSnipe View Post
Alright, so you're telling me that because he was performing well last year in his rookie season, when no one else had seen him playing before that we were supposed to expect his play to fall off this much? It's alright, I didn't know that players who were performing poorly lose value...

Phaneuf suddenly went from being an elite defenceman to an "overpaid bum" in one season. Vinny is know on apparently an albatross contract because his play his gone down. People were saying that Iginla was done at the beginning of the year before he his play began to heat up. These were proven players, not just sophmores either, yeah it's natural to think we overstated Bozak's ability if he hits a huge slump.

On the flip side, you guys all had boners about Nathan Horton at the beginning of the year, now not so much. Don't try and play this off as something more than it is.
Also, on the Kessel could only get a mid-late first round pick business, let's look at precedent. A rental Hal Gill, Domonic Moore, Matt Cullen, Ales Kotalik, Raffi Torres etc got a 2nd round pick (+ another piece in some cases) at the deadline. Kovalchuk in February at 27ish years old, with rumours that he wanted to test the market and was demanding a 100 mill + contract got a 1st round pick, Top Prospect (Cormier), Rookie Stud at the time (Bergfors) and Top 4 defenseman with a slightly high salary (Oduya).

You're telling me that a 23 year old Kessel which serious break out potential under contract through 2014-2015 at $5.4 would only get a mid to late first? Give your head a shake...
My point was everyone was calling Bozak a "second line center" over the summer and prorating his stats up the ass, and now suddenly he sucks...just interesting.

And of course we thought Horton was gonna be great, I admit it. We were terribly wrong.

And look at it this way, why would any team give up a ton ten pick for someone who is "lazy," "one dimensional," "only speeds up the boards and does the curl and drag" and "isnt a player u build a team around." (Actual quotes from Leaf posters). Top ten picks are very valuable picks, why would a team, who isnt very good if theyre picking top ten, trade that cost controlled valuable player for a 5.4 million dollar player who has notable weaknesses/deficiencies? Why would they mirror Burkes mistake (in terms of team success)?

Would I trade Kessel for say Jordan Caron (Mid 1st round pick)? In a vacuum, with no history in Boston, abso****inglutely.

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02-01-2011, 10:26 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by GCM View Post
It's going to be locked because you're a troll and an embarrassment to Canucks fans.


Sorry Leaf fans, every fanbase has it's jerks.
Ding ding ding we've got a winner. The guy who posted the Billy Madison clip also has it right.

The only teams that wouldn't trade a 1st roudn pick for Kessel are the ones with no cap space and great current chemistry, but even the majority of those teams would problably love to add Kessel in the offseason if the cost was only a 1st rounder. That being said, Toronto problably wouldn't even trade him for what they paid. The guy is a 23-year old premier talent making $5.4m in a league where it is becoming increasingly difficult to attract top talent. The only way to get Phil Kessel -- trade a forward who's better than him. That doesn't mean somebody who has slightly more production playing with a great set of linemates / chemistry, it means somebody with more talent.

Are his numbers disappointing? absolutely, that's what's going to happen when your linemates are Tyler Bozak and Joey Crabb (or Versteeg who was a horrible fit). He can't carry a team on his own like Rick Nash. He's not physical, a leader, or in possession of any type of 2-way game, and that's why he makes $5.4m instead of $7m.

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Old
02-01-2011, 10:28 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Canuck and Bills Fan View Post
Seeing Kessel`s point production right now and his mediocre performance so far this year I am wondering what value you would offer Toronto for Kessel right now? I am betting at least 90% of all NHL teams would not trade a single first round pick for Kessel right now.It was no shock he went last at the All Star game he was the worst player available. He did not look like a professional athlete I thought he was a contestant on Pros VS Joes. So would any NHL teams would offer Toronto a first for him! Would he even be a top 6 player on 50% of NHL teams right now Vancouver says NO!!! He would not play in the Canucks top 9 right now.
People need to look at Kessel's goal production at the tender age of 23 and start comparing it to some players.

After you do this you see he's in company with very few others.

Heck the guy is 'struggling' with 19 goals and playing with AHL players like Crabb.

Kessel will be fine and will hit 40-50 goals one day. You don't trade that.

Iginla hit 30 goals once in his first 5 years. Kessel is on his way to his 3rd straight 30 goal campaign.

Ease up on the kid people - he's 23 and has over 100 career NHL goals. At this rate he'll score 500+ in his career. No he isn't Crosby or Ovechkin but seriously ease up. And stop offering him in trades he isn't going anywhere.

As for the Vancouver poster - he'd probably score 50 goals with the twins.

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Old
02-01-2011, 10:28 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Canuck and Bills Fan View Post
Would he be a point a game player in the shape he is in right now??
yes, no clue why this would get locked

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Old
02-01-2011, 10:29 AM
  #34
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Kessel is staying with the leafs until his contract finishes

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Old
02-01-2011, 10:31 AM
  #35
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
do i think kessel could be a great asset to the Sens? Yes
do i want to trade the 4th overall for him? No.

a) i'd rather take a flyer on Landeskog or RNH because there's the chance they could become superstar level players and Kessel will never be that.
b) i just don't want to give the Leafs a 1st overall draft pick.
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Ding ding ding we've got a winner. The guy who posted the Billy Madison clip also has it right.

The only teams that wouldn't trade a 1st roudn pick for Kessel are the ones with no cap space and great current chemistry, but Toronto problably wouldn't even trade him for what they paid. The guy is a 23-year old premier talent making $5.4m in a league where it is becoming increasingly difficult to attract top talent. The only way to get Phil Kessel -- trade a forward who's better than him. That doesn't mean somebody who has slightly more production playing with a great set of linemates / chemistry, it means somebody with more talent.

Are his numbers disappointing? absolutely, that's what's going to happen when your linemates are Tyler Bozak and Joey Crabb (or Versteeg who was a horrible fit). He can't carry a team on his own like Rick Nash. He's not physical, a leader, or in possession of any type of 2-way game, and that's why he makes $5.4m instead of $7m.
Any my point is, why would any team trade a top ten pick for a player like that?

Maybe I'm off base here, but if you're a bottom ten team I doubt youd be in a position to add a complementary player like Kessel...so why not just keep the valuable cost controlled pick?

How the Leafs have done w/him is just more support that a young developing team shoudl keep their picks and not add one dimensional scoring. Now a team in the PO race who needs scoring? I'd trade a 1st rounder anyday.

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02-01-2011, 10:35 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Canuck and Bills Fan View Post
I get it so Kessel is a lot like Burrows a 3 - 4 Mill a year guy when playing in the right situation... But am I the only person who thought he did not look healthy this past weekend?
All he does is eat McDonalds and fatty foods, he had a bag of jujubes and cheetos sitting beside bruce garrioch an ottawa reporter at the all star game..

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02-01-2011, 10:41 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
My point was everyone was calling Bozak a "second line center" over the summer and prorating his stats up the ass, and now suddenly he sucks...just interesting.

And of course we thought Horton was gonna be great, I admit it. We were terribly wrong.

And look at it this way, why would any team give up a ton ten pick for someone who is "lazy," "one dimensional," "only speeds up the boards and does the curl and drag" and "isnt a player u build a team around." (Actual quotes from Leaf posters). Top ten picks are very valuable picks, why would a team, who isnt very good if theyre picking top ten, trade that cost controlled valuable player for a 5.4 million dollar player who has notable weaknesses/deficiencies? Why would they mirror Burkes mistake (in terms of team success)?

Would I trade Kessel for say Jordan Caron (Mid 1st round pick)? In a vacuum, with no history in Boston, abso****inglutely.
This isn't directed at you because obviously as Boston fan you've seen Kessel play, but I get the feeling that anyone on HF who isn't a Leafs or Bruins fan just makes up assumptions from what they hear on the forums which is either, gloating from the Bruins fans who got a significant return for him or complaints from the Leafs fans that are more related to anger about the trade than his actually play. The fact of the matter is that Kessel is not physical, but he does take somewhat of a beating to hang on to the puck, he doesn't run away like other people make it seem. Laziness though is one thing that I'll never understanding them saying, he hustles on nearly every play and usually generates so many 3 on 2s or 2 on 1s, and more often than not is the forward on his line that usually backs up the defensman if they pinch deep. He's actually been known to thwart a rush or two with a quick backcheck. I'm not going to lie though, he is below average defensively, however with his speed and a system like Julien's or Martin's or Babcock's he could be a decent 2-way guy. On the subject of the selfishness, yes he does hog the puck, especially on the PP, but you don't know how many times he's thread a beautiful pass to Bozak or Crabb and they've whiffed compeletly.

Basically I'm just trying to say that he gets underrated on here, and his flaws are just as evident as players from other teams but since he plays for Toronto and the trade has serious potential to be one-sided, he's gained a reputation for being lazy, selfish or a wuss, etc.

The thing is, a Kessel trade that involves a top 10 pick would probably be from a team who underperformed, like the Devils or Flames earlier on. Obviously neither of these teams would need Kessel in particular, and in Jersey's case definitely not for 1st overall, the point is that it would be for a team with an established veteran core. Either way though, Kessel wouldn't get a high pick literally in a trade, but something of similar value, like a top prospect from a contender and a 1st or an established young PMD +.

Besides, the odds of a lower top ten pick actually becoming something significant are lower than people think, Skinner this year was obviously an exception that skewed opinions.

Point is, yes Kessel is worth a substantial return, but with the current situation being that he's under a 2nd contract yet still young and not fully established to his potential, and so much was given up for him, means that it would be incredibly difficult to find a trade that's logical for both sides.

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02-01-2011, 10:56 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Ripe4theSnipe View Post
This isn't directed at you because obviously as Boston fan you've seen Kessel play, but I get the feeling that anyone on HF who isn't a Leafs or Bruins fan just makes up assumptions from what they hear on the forums which is either, gloating from the Bruins fans who got a significant return for him or complaints from the Leafs fans that are more related to anger about the trade than his actually play. The fact of the matter is that Kessel is not physical, but he does take somewhat of a beating to hang on to the puck, he doesn't run away like other people make it seem. Laziness though is one thing that I'll never understanding them saying, he hustles on nearly every play and usually generates so many 3 on 2s or 2 on 1s, and more often than not is the forward on his line that usually backs up the defensman if they pinch deep. He's actually been known to thwart a rush or two with a quick backcheck. I'm not going to lie though, he is below average defensively, however with his speed and a system like Julien's or Martin's or Babcock's he could be a decent 2-way guy. On the subject of the selfishness, yes he does hog the puck, especially on the PP, but you don't know how many times he's thread a beautiful pass to Bozak or Crabb and they've whiffed compeletly.

Basically I'm just trying to say that he gets underrated on here, and his flaws are just as evident as players from other teams but since he plays for Toronto and the trade has serious potential to be one-sided, he's gained a reputation for being lazy, selfish or a wuss, etc.

The thing is, a Kessel trade that involves a top 10 pick would probably be from a team who underperformed, like the Devils or Flames earlier on. Obviously neither of these teams would need Kessel in particular, and in Jersey's case definitely not for 1st overall, the point is that it would be for a team with an established veteran core. Either way though, Kessel wouldn't get a high pick literally in a trade, but something of similar value, like a top prospect from a contender and a 1st or an established young PMD +.

Besides, the odds of a lower top ten pick actually becoming something significant are lower than people think, Skinner this year was obviously an exception that skewed opinions.

Point is, yes Kessel is worth a substantial return, but with the current situation being that he's under a 2nd contract yet still young and not fully established to his potential, and so much was given up for him, means that it would be incredibly difficult to find a trade that's logical for both sides.
To the right team though. Why would a bottom ten team, who is still developing, trade a top ten pick for a player who clearly didnt help a bottom ten team when he got there? (Not meant to be troll comment, but he obviously didnt put the Leafs over the hump u know).

Value wise, hes an elite sniper who is probably worth a substantial return, but in reality a lot of bad teams would not trade a valuable pick like that for a player with deficiencies that are highlighted by you and others similarly.

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02-01-2011, 12:13 PM
  #39
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To the right team though. Why would a bottom ten team, who is still developing, trade a top ten pick for a player who clearly didnt help a bottom ten team when he got there? (Not meant to be troll comment, but he obviously didnt put the Leafs over the hump u know).

Value wise, hes an elite sniper who is probably worth a substantial return, but in reality a lot of bad teams would not trade a valuable pick like that for a player with deficiencies that are highlighted by you and others similarly.
Because at the time, we had just signed Komi, Beauch and Gus. Toskala was coming of surgery and "supposed" to be 100%.

The evaluation by Burke&Co was that the defense was solid, goaltending was adequate but what they really needed to compete for a playoff spot was a pure scorer.

We all know how things have transpired since. It's easy to look back (now that we know how "solid" and "adequate" defense and goaltending actually were) and say that we needed more than just a pure scorer. Someone that can do both. But what's done is done. Kessel is here to stay.

Not that I don't like a pure scorer. If we ever add a high-calibre two-way forward, having kessel will be much easier to tolerate.

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02-01-2011, 12:22 PM
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A Honda.

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02-01-2011, 12:31 PM
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A Honda.
The last pick in the draft

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02-01-2011, 12:36 PM
  #42
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I've always thought that Brian Burke's biggest failing as GM of the Leafs was not the Kessel trade itself, but the failure to recognize what he actually was getting in Kessel: A pure goal scorer. He can't attain his highest value for the team without a decent set-up guy.

Instead, he sunk a bunch of money into the defense corps. Fine, that worked in Anaheim... but Anaheim also had enough skilled forwards to make a more defensive, hard-hitting type system work. Different animal in Toronto.

Basically, right now the Kessel trade looks like a massive steal for Boston. But if Burkie can take some of the money from his expiring Dman contracts and lure say, a Brad Richards to Toronto... I think Kessel will start to show his true value. It's just a shame that it has taken 2 seasons and potentially 2 lottery picks to get it done.

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02-01-2011, 12:37 PM
  #43
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Someone mentioned Kessel on a line with Crosby... regardless of the general negativity of this thread, man! That would be frightening to play against. The scary thing is that his value and GM might both be out of whack enough right now that a trade like that could happen...

Wouldn't want to be the Vancouver fan who made this thread when they get stomped by Kessel-Crosby-MALKIN TO THE WING PLEASE in the SCF.

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02-01-2011, 12:38 PM
  #44
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Because at the time, we had just signed Komi, Beauch and Gus. Toskala was coming of surgery and "supposed" to be 100%.

The evaluation by Burke&Co was that the defense was solid, goaltending was adequate but what they really needed to compete for a playoff spot was a pure scorer.

We all know how things have transpired since. It's easy to look back (now that we know how "solid" and "adequate" defense and goaltending actually were) and say that we needed more than just a pure scorer. Someone that can do both. But what's done is done. Kessel is here to stay.

Not that I don't like a pure scorer. If we ever add a high-calibre two-way forward, having kessel will be much easier to tolerate.
Understandable, but again, you finished with the 7th (?) overall pick before u made the trade for Kessel. You were a team before who wasnt that good, so a lot of GMs will recognize that and be aware of attaining Kessel.

Kessel to them is the last piece of a puzzle, a player that puts a 6th-9th team into the 1st-5th range. Of course this is just my opinion, but I see Kessel as a complementary player to make a low PO team into a Cup contender, not a bottom dweller into a PO Contender, if that makes ANY sense, lol.

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02-01-2011, 12:43 PM
  #45
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He'd be lucky to crack the NHL on any other team.

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02-01-2011, 12:47 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Canuck and Bills Fan View Post
Seeing Kessel`s point production right now and his mediocre performance so far this year I am wondering what value you would offer Toronto for Kessel right now? I am betting at least 90% of all NHL teams would not trade a single first round pick for Kessel right now.It was no shock he went last at the All Star game he was the worst player available. He did not look like a professional athlete I thought he was a contestant on Pros VS Joes. So would any NHL teams would offer Toronto a first for him! Would he even be a top 6 player on 50% of NHL teams right now Vancouver says NO!!! He would not play in the Canucks top 9 right now.
You would definitely lose that bet. Teams might not trade a top two pick for him, but pretty well every other team owning a first would deal it for Kessel, as long as it works financially.

I honestly don't think he was the worst player available in the All-star draft, but even if he was, he's only 23. So what if we was?

Why did you even make this thread? To bash Kessel?

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02-01-2011, 12:48 PM
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He wouldnt be top 6 in MTL

Patches-Gomez-Gionta
AK46-Pleks-Cammy

Unless we have an injury, he wouldnt be playing there unless he replaced Gionta or Cammy...which is highly unlikely. We have enough small underproducing players.

Im sure he could fetch a top 10 pick.

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02-01-2011, 12:51 PM
  #48
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All the bold teams you are very very very wrong. Not right now maybe the Kessel of 2 or 3 years ago but he has let himself go!
Are you basing this off of his lack of effort in an all-star game?

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02-01-2011, 12:56 PM
  #49
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He's worth a 1st round pick at least, despite the hate he gets he's still a 30 goal scorer and pretty young. He's shown he can backcheck it's just he doesn't always do his defensive duties, but he's been paying more attention to that for the better part of this season. 2 1sts? No. A 1st and a 2nd? Probably. He's a pure goalscorer playing on a horrid line, put him beside a line of Carter and JVR, or Krejci and Lucic and he'd probably perform much much better.

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02-01-2011, 01:00 PM
  #50
Dylbot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habiton View Post
He wouldnt be top 6 in MTL

Patches-Gomez-Gionta
AK46-Pleks-Cammy

Unless we have an injury, he wouldnt be playing there unless he replaced Gionta or Cammy...which is highly unlikely. We have enough small underproducing players.

Im sure he could fetch a top 10 pick.
WHAT?!

"We have enough small underproducing players." I agree, so why not replace one of them with a guy that's out producing all of them, save one?

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