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Old
02-01-2011, 01:25 PM
  #76
misfit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
How many middle weights does one team need.

Vandermeer - beat up Barch pretty good before Barch tuned in Stortini
Peckham - hasnt been fighting as much due to a injured hand that is better now
JFJ - Equally as bad of a fighter but not as embarassing and knows when to pick his spots better
Strudwick - Fighting is about the only thing he doesnt suck at.
Vandermeer, JFJ, and Strudwick are not under contract for next year, and none of them should be given new ones either.

That leaves Peckham.


EDIT - if by "knows when to pick his spots better" you mean "doesn't fight", then you're right. Jacques has as many fights this year as Cogliano, Brule, Gagner, and Foster.

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02-01-2011, 01:26 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
False.

PD/60: 3.0
PT/60: 1.4

Link.
What exactly do those mean? And who decides them?

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02-01-2011, 01:28 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
At least Brodziak could win a faceoff and make Stortini look decent. NOtice how since Brodziak left our 4th line has been awful.
Even though I think we should've kept Brodziak, it was just as awful with him. Unless you're counting the 20 games they played with Glencross who was running with a 22% shooting percentage (ie, unsustainable offense).

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02-01-2011, 01:28 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
What stats would he be horrible at? He's holding his own in +/-, isn't getting scored against, is leading the club in hits/game, many of them damned good hits.
He's even popped in a few goals and has had his nose around the net for greasy goals. On some shifts he's now even been giving the Penner screen assignment.

I know you don't like the player but he's playing well this year. The only stats you could cite are some of the weirder ones like Relative Corsi and the like. In any of the actual counting numbers JFJ is doing well.
JFJ is doing great relative to his career to date and to guys like MacIntyre and Stortini. Trouble comes running when he is given more responsibility like last year.

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02-01-2011, 01:29 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
What stats would he be horrible at? He's holding his own in +/-, isn't getting scored against, is leading the club in hits/game, many of them damned good hits.
He's even popped in a few goals and has had his nose around the net for greasy goals. On some shifts he's now even been giving the Penner screen assignment.

I know you don't like the player but he's playing well this year. The only stats you could cite are some of the weirder ones like Relative Corsi and the like. In any of the actual counting numbers JFJ is doing well.
I really don't see how these advance stats work for guys when they play 5-7 minutes a game.

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02-01-2011, 01:34 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Beevatron2000 View Post
JFJ looks like he's starting to play much better, might not last, but probably worth it to see what he can do the rest of the season, see if he's worth keeping around.

Gregor made a great point on ON today that the fourth line really doesn't matter that much. Whether guys like JFJ or Fraser stay or go probably isn't of that much importance to the future of the club.
I was just arguing that last week. I'm gonna have to find that article. People love to rag on the 4th liners because they are typically (always on a last place team) unimportant to a teams success. They see the least amount of ice time, are the least skilled and have the least impact on the outcome of a game. It's fairly obvious that they are the least important players so I really don't understand why people hate on them so much. Let's pick on the good players who are underperforming instead ya?

We're a last place team and our worst players (4th line) are our worst players, what a shocker!

We're in the middle of a rebuild and people are lamenting the fact that our 4th line sucks? Because the 4th line is unimportant it's the last thing that needs attention.

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02-01-2011, 01:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Riiight because having Stortini on the roster prevented our stars from getting injured in the past. The guy was an embarassment this year, other team's agitators would laugh hysterically at our "so called" agitator.
No problem, applaud like a trained seal after Hall, EBerle, Omark, Petry gets their heads driven through the boards because we have no one at all that will even answer the bell. ***** all you want about him but he got involved, stirred things up and was often the center of attention when he was on the ice, good or bad.

Softest team in the league, gets softer. Good for teams like Calgary, Vancouver and Minny who love to abuse our players.

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02-01-2011, 01:36 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by OilDrop37 View Post
After the fight with Bartsch the other night, He can't go away fast enough.
Love how Barch calls him a chicken s**t mid fight

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Old
02-01-2011, 01:38 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
JFJ is doing great relative to his career to date and to guys like MacIntyre and Stortini. Trouble comes running when he is given more responsibility like last year.
Fraser has helped JFJ more than is commonly thought here. I think he would be a bigger key to JFJ's game right now than Stortini. Zac, more than JFJ seems to need a catalyst and I'm remembering that Storts best hockey ever was played with Glencross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I really don't see how these advance stats work for guys when they play 5-7 minutes a game.
Which is why I don't use advanced stats in these instances. But the counting numbers are good. Few GA at anytime, a ton of hits, even chipping in a few goals and being physical and hard to play against.

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02-01-2011, 01:45 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
No problem, applaud like a trained seal after Hall, EBerle, Omark, Petry gets their heads driven through the boards because we have no one at all that will even answer the bell. ***** all you want about him but he got involved, stirred things up and was often the center of attention when he was on the ice, good or bad.

Softest team in the league, gets softer. Good for teams like Calgary, Vancouver and Minny who love to abuse our players.
this song is gettin old. peckham, strudwick, vandermeer and to a lesser extent JFJ and frasor can all fight when need be. plus one of the toughest guys in the league in macintyre. JFJ hits like a truck so does peckham, and even reddox throws his body around. this is not a soft team, it's just not a very good team at this stage. stortini adds nothing to the toughness of this team, if anything he takes away from it by embarrassing himself anytime he tries to "fight"

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02-01-2011, 01:47 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
This is beyond retarded. Let's get rid of just about our only agitator, middle weight tough guy who is still only 25 or so. I would assume they are sending him down to the farm. Plugs like Fraser and JFJacques are so much more important.
In all honesty, this team will be a bottom feeder as long as we have players like any of Fraser, Jacques and Stortini in the lineup.

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02-01-2011, 01:48 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Raised Fist Republic View Post
I was just arguing that last week. I'm gonna have to find that article. People love to rag on the 4th liners because they are typically (always on a last place team) unimportant to a teams success. They see the least amount of ice time, are the least skilled and have the least impact on the outcome of a game. It's fairly obvious that they are the least important players so I really don't understand why people hate on them so much. Let's pick on the good players who are underperforming instead ya?

We're a last place team and our worst players (4th line) are our worst players, what a shocker!

We're in the middle of a rebuild and people are lamenting the fact that our 4th line sucks? Because the 4th line is unimportant it's the last thing that needs attention.
So as I understand it, fourth liners are (per Gregor) immaterial on good teams and (per you) irrelevant on bad teams. So why have a fourth line at all?

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02-01-2011, 01:49 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
No problem, applaud like a trained seal after Hall, EBerle, Omark, Petry gets their heads driven through the boards because we have no one at all that will even answer the bell. ***** all you want about him but he got involved, stirred things up and was often the center of attention when he was on the ice, good or bad.

Softest team in the league, gets softer. Good for teams like Calgary, Vancouver and Minny who love to abuse our players.
We have tough guys. We need tough guys who can actually play hockey. Stortini, Jacques, Fraser are not that. There is room on an NHL roster for maybe one guy who can be the deterrent to physical precense, without the skill to actually play the game. Stortini isn't enough of a deterrent to be that guy.

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02-01-2011, 01:53 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Raised Fist Republic View Post
I was just arguing that last week. I'm gonna have to find that article. People love to rag on the 4th liners because they are typically (always on a last place team) unimportant to a teams success. They see the least amount of ice time, are the least skilled and have the least impact on the outcome of a game. It's fairly obvious that they are the least important players so I really don't understand why people hate on them so much. Let's pick on the good players who are underperforming instead ya?

We're a last place team and our worst players (4th line) are our worst players, what a shocker!

We're in the middle of a rebuild and people are lamenting the fact that our 4th line sucks? Because the 4th line is unimportant it's the last thing that needs attention.
You're missing the point. The Oilers depth is awful, we have some good rookies who may be top liners some day, and a pile of bottom line guys, some who shouldn't be in the NHL. Our fourth line should be MacIntyre-Cogliano-Jones, to be honest (with Mac only getting a couple of shifts per game). That's how bad our depth is, we're playing guys who have the production of a 4th line player on our 2nd and third line. That needs to stop, and we need to purge some of our bottom line crap to do it.

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02-01-2011, 01:55 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
No problem, applaud like a trained seal after Hall, EBerle, Omark, Petry gets their heads driven through the boards because we have no one at all that will even answer the bell. ***** all you want about him but he got involved, stirred things up and was often the center of attention when he was on the ice, good or bad.

Softest team in the league, gets softer. Good for teams like Calgary, Vancouver and Minny who love to abuse our players.
I just don't understand your point, when was the last time Stortini made anyone pay for hitting our young kids. Sure the guy gives it his all, but that doesn't change the fact that when he's trying to be physical, he's NOT creating energy on the bench and he's not changing the momentum. By the way, the last time any of our kids got hit by a hard, albeit clean hit, Penner was the one who stepped up. Last time I remember Stortini not being embarrassed in a fight was during the NY Rangers game after the whole Avery-Smid debacle. He may get under a teams skin somewhat, but I honestly think he's drawing more laughter from other teams players than anything. The point is, is we have guys who will step up if they have to, other teams may not be fearful of these guys, but they certainly weren't fearful of Stortini, and most of these guys can actually play hockey (Penner, Peckham, Vandermeer). Hell, even Gagner will step up and fight to prove a point.

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02-01-2011, 01:55 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
So as I understand it, fourth liners are (per Gregor) immaterial on good teams and (per you) irrelevant on bad teams. So why have a fourth line at all?
Ask Tom Renney he seems to agree by the icetime he gives them.

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02-01-2011, 01:55 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Vandermeer, JFJ, and Strudwick are not under contract for next year, and none of them should be given new ones either.

That leaves Peckham.


EDIT - if by "knows when to pick his spots better" you mean "doesn't fight", then you're right. Jacques has as many fights this year as Cogliano, Brule, Gagner, and Foster.
For this season I think this is unfair for JFJ. By fighting more he would only increase the chances of him further injuring his back and pretty much deep sixing any chance at a hockey career.
While recovering he's still banging, playing reasonably well and picking his spots. I don't see that he's hurt us. I do think with a guy like Zac gone the expectation going forward is he fights more and hopefully he's ready for that.

Also I don't see a problem with Vandermeer going forward on at least a 2 yr contract. I don't mind having some experience on the backend.

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02-01-2011, 01:57 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
For this season I think this is unfair for JFJ. By fighting more he would only increase the chances of him further injuring his back and pretty much deep sixing any chance at a hockey career.
While recovering he's still banging, playing reasonably well and picking his spots. I don't see that he's hurt us. I do think with a guy like Zac gone the expectation going forward is he fights more and hopefully he's ready for that.

Also I don't see a problem with Vandermeer going forward on at least a 2 yr contract. I don't mind having some experience on the backend.

I'd try one year on Vandermeer, 2 years might be too long.

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02-01-2011, 01:58 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
No problem, applaud like a trained seal after Hall, EBerle, Omark, Petry gets their heads driven through the boards because we have no one at all that will even answer the bell. ***** all you want about him but he got involved, stirred things up and was often the center of attention when he was on the ice, good or bad.

Softest team in the league, gets softer. Good for teams like Calgary, Vancouver and Minny who love to abuse our players.
How does a team get softer when it's the softest? My point is that Stortini drawing attention to himself did nothing to prevent our stars from getting injured in the past so what difference did he make? Teams take liberties on our stars with or without Stortini, what's the difference? I would much rather have Ryan Jones (you know, a guy that can actually play hockey and agitate as well) in that 4th line RW spot than Stortini. Explain to me where Stortini fits in this lineup when everybody gets healthy......

Hall-Horcoff-Eberle
Penner-Gagner-Hemsky
Paajarvi-Cogliano-Omark
JFJ/Reddox-Fraser-Jones

Brule

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02-01-2011, 01:59 PM
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I just don't understand your point, when was the last time Stortini made anyone pay for hitting our young kids. Sure the guy gives it his all, but that doesn't change the fact that when he's trying to be physical, he's NOT creating energy on the bench and he's not changing the momentum. By the way, the last time any of our kids got hit by a hard, albeit clean hit, Penner was the one who stepped up. Last time I remember Stortini not being embarrassed in a fight was during the NY Rangers game after the whole Avery-Smid debacle. He may get under a teams skin somewhat, but I honestly think he's drawing more laughter from other teams players than anything. The point is, is we have guys who will step up if they have to, other teams may not be fearful of these guys, but they certainly weren't fearful of Stortini, and most of these guys can actually play hockey (Penner, Peckham, Vandermeer). Hell, even Gagner will step up and fight to prove a point.
Penner doesn't step up. C'mon. I like the guy but this is one of the main knocks on him. He see's Hemsky get rattled into the middle of next week every week but fights maybe 2-3 times/year and randomly at that. When he's for some reason in the mood. Which is preciously seldom. If Penner had half the "willing to go" disposition that Storts had he'd double his value here. On his own he would dissuade guys from taking liberties. Penner could be that guy. He chooses not to. Vandermeer has had one fight here. Peckham is game but he's not a much better fighter than Storts.

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02-01-2011, 02:00 PM
  #96
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Interest in Carcillo?

I don't know that the Flyers are looking to move him because he has played well when he is in the line up but he has been the 13th forward for most of season due mostly to depth then poor play. Its a nice problem to have but if they are looking to clear capspace for a goalie maybe they move him.

What type of draft pick would the Oilers give for Carcillo (rfa)?

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02-01-2011, 02:01 PM
  #97
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Penner doesn't step up. C'mon. I like the guy but this is one of the main knocks on him. He see's Hemsky get rattled into the middle of next week every week but fights maybe 2-3 times/year and randomly at that. When he's for some reason in the mood. Which is preciously seldom. If Penner had half the "willing to go" disposition that Storts had he'd double his value here. On his own he would dissuade guys from taking liberties. Penner could be that guy. He chooses not to. Vandermeer has had one fight here. Peckham is game but he's not a much better fighter than Storts.
Don't worry about Penner, now that he is married he can let his looks go and fight.

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02-01-2011, 02:02 PM
  #98
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I'd try one year on Vandermeer, 2 years might be too long.
Yeah, he strikes me as a banged up, old 30 yrs as well. Looks like he's in a lot of pain on some nights.

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02-01-2011, 02:04 PM
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02-01-2011, 02:04 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Fraser has helped JFJ more than is commonly thought here. I think he would be a bigger key to JFJ's game right now than Stortini. Zac, more than JFJ seems to need a catalyst and I'm remembering that Storts best hockey ever was played with Glencross.



Which is why I don't use advanced stats in these instances. But the counting numbers are good. Few GA at anytime, a ton of hits, even chipping in a few goals and being physical and hard to play against.
I don't really know if I can agree with any of this. It's been pretty clear whenever I've watched him play this year (or any year, come to think of it), that he hasn't been the one driving any sort of positive results. Of the 3 goals he scored this year, I can clearly recall 2 of them being a direct result of Zach Stortini efforts. (I actually thought he only had 2 goals before I went back and checked. His 2nd was actually a pretty good play on his behalf. Nothing fancy, but he made a strong play along the boards to keep the puck alive in the offensive zone, then went to the net where he was on the spot to pick up the loose puck. Full credit to JFJ on that one).

The hitting and the physicality I can get behind. The "hard to play against" not so much.

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