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02-01-2011, 01:06 PM
  #101
obglim
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i hope he clears and spends the rest of the year in okc improving his quickness and learning to pk. if he can play 12 minutes a game and make a marked improvement over the remainder of the season i think he could be a very useful 4th liner next year.

if he is picked up i wish him luck. i absolutely hated him for the first couple of years but have grown to appreciate his effort level.

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02-01-2011, 01:06 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Don't worry about Penner, now that he is married he can let his looks go and fight.
Doesn't have the disposition for it. Penner is always there to calm things down, not stir them up. He looks like a peacemaker out there in any scrum pulling guys back(although I love how easy he can yank somebody out of there.)

A comparable to me is Joel Otto(except Joel was a lot more physical) Basically a decent nice guy and not a dirty player. Otto could have done a lot more if he wasn't a gentleman. Mess for instance would have been more negated had Joel ever decided on it. The flames would have been far worse to play against all those years if Joel Otto played with anger.

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02-01-2011, 01:07 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Penner doesn't step up. C'mon. I like the guy but this is one of the main knocks on him. He see's Hemsky get rattled into the middle of next week every week but fights maybe 2-3 times/year and randomly at that. When he's for some reason in the mood. Which is preciously seldom. If Penner had half the "willing to go" disposition that Storts had he'd double his value here. On his own he would dissuade guys from taking liberties. Penner could be that guy. He chooses not to. Vandermeer has had one fight here. Peckham is game but he's not a much better fighter than Storts.
He sure as hell is....A piece of paper is a better fighter than Stortini. The guy tries but he's horribly ineffective and generally draws laughter from his opponents.

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02-01-2011, 01:08 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Vandermeer, JFJ, and Strudwick are not under contract for next year, and none of them should be given new ones either.

That leaves Peckham.


EDIT - if by "knows when to pick his spots better" you mean "doesn't fight", then you're right. Jacques has as many fights this year as Cogliano, Brule, Gagner, and Foster.
Why should Vandermeer not be given another year on a cheap deal? Who says Stortini, Struswick and JFJ wont be replaced by physical players. How many middleweights does a team need?

By picking his spots better I mean not dropping the mits anytime a player on the other team needs to change the momentum of the game in his teams favor.

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02-01-2011, 01:09 PM
  #105
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Jacques should have been the one to go first. Anyhow, I hope he's next. it's time to give up on this player.

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02-01-2011, 01:12 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
He sure as hell is....A piece of paper is a better fighter than Stortini. The guy tries but he's horribly ineffective and generally draws laughter from his opponents.
I like Peckham but I've been concerned with his fighting as well.

He regularly allows his opponent to get the hold advantage from the start and is fighting uphill and eating punches each time out due to it.
Peckham starts out each fight on the losing end. Sometimes he turns it around.

Technically he's a poor fighter at this point. Kid can learn I imagine but I'd like to see him study the tapes a lot more. He's losing fights the same way repeatedly. In the intial clinch. He has to watch for that a whole lot better. He's trying to win fights with pure brawn. These guys he's facing are strong enough that you don't tip the table that easily.

He's using poor tactics that got him by in JR and sometimes the AHL but that aren't good enough here.

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02-01-2011, 01:12 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Penner doesn't step up. C'mon. I like the guy but this is one of the main knocks on him. He see's Hemsky get rattled into the middle of next week every week but fights maybe 2-3 times/year and randomly at that. When he's for some reason in the mood. Which is preciously seldom. If Penner had half the "willing to go" disposition that Storts had he'd double his value here. On his own he would dissuade guys from taking liberties. Penner could be that guy. He chooses not to. Vandermeer has had one fight here. Peckham is game but he's not a much better fighter than Storts.

I agree with you mostly, the guys I listed are not great fighters, but just because Stortini fights alot, it does not make him an effective fighter. I guess my point is that we are just as soft with him as we are without him, which is why I like the waive because we need the roster spot. Jacques need to adopt Stortini's give all attitude, and fight more, because I think if he does he will be far more effective then Stortini was, and if he's not, then waive him too and play Mac every night.

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02-01-2011, 01:14 PM
  #108
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I would have waived JFJ before Storts although that may still happen as this move facilitates the return of Hemsky and Ebs but not Brule.

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02-01-2011, 01:15 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Yeah, he strikes me as a banged up, old 30 yrs as well. Looks like he's in a lot of pain on some nights.
If he was given the role Struds was given this year I'd be happy. But with that said i could see us getting a pick for him and letting him go.

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02-01-2011, 01:16 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Don't worry about Penner, now that he is married he can let his looks go and fight.
when did he get married and was it to a local/canadian girl or from states?

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02-01-2011, 01:16 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Why should Vandermeer not be given another year on a cheap deal? Who says Stortini, Struswick and JFJ wont be replaced by physical players. How many middleweights does a team need?
Why should he? I personally hope we trade him at the deadline and get something for him, and 3rd pairing defensemen are a dime a dozen in free agency. I realise that my saying a guy is or isn't coming back is far from sticking to fact, but are you saying we already know who are going to be replacing them too?

Quote:
By picking his spots better I mean not dropping the mits anytime... *snip*
There, fixed that for you.

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02-01-2011, 01:17 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
So as I understand it, fourth liners are (per Gregor) immaterial on good teams and (per you) irrelevant on bad teams. So why have a fourth line at all?
Close:

the 4th line can be important on good teams from time to time but a great 4th line is not crucial.

Come playoffs most 4th lines barely see any ice unless the team has a healthy lead. Why do you think that is? It's because they are the worst players on the team and

1. You don't want to get scored on
OR
2. You need to score a goal

So when NHL coaches barely play their 4th lines in the playoffs it tells you how important they are, doesn't it?

There's a reason a lot of 4th liners are called plugs. They plug a hole in the roster. That's why you have them. Now of course they are some 4th liners out there who do make meaningful contributions to their teams but not many.

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02-01-2011, 01:17 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by BGr1ff View Post
I agree with you mostly, the guys I listed are not good fighters, but just because Stortini fights alot, it does not make him an effective fighter. I guess my point is that we are just as soft with him as we are without him, which is why I like the waive because we need the roster spot. Jacques need to adopt Stortini's give all attitude, and fight more, because I think if he does he will be far more effective then Stortini was, and if he's not, then waive him too and play Mac every night.
Yeah, as mentioned though Jacques is playing through some major back injury that could have ended his career. He's fairly brave and a gamer just getting out there and playing the way he is and belting guys with hits. Sucks to be JFJ but he's had a severe run on injuries. But this is about the healthiest he looks. At least I'd see how he looks the remainder of the year and in Exhibition next year.

If JFJ was 100% none of us would be complaining about his physicality.

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02-01-2011, 01:19 PM
  #114
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Doesn't have the disposition for it. Penner is always there to calm things down, not stir them up. He looks like a peacemaker out there in any scrum pulling guys back(although I love how easy he can yank somebody out of there.)

A comparable to me is Joel Otto(except Joel was a lot more physical) Basically a decent nice guy and not a dirty player. Otto could have done a lot more if he wasn't a gentleman. Mess for instance would have been more negated had Joel ever decided on it. The flames would have been far worse to play against all those years if Joel Otto played with anger.
I have to agree, although I don't want to. Penner is one of those guys that the talking heads on TSN/Sportsnet talk about. One of those guys that respects other players and turns away at the last minute and doens't finish his check because it was needed.

He is what he is.

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02-01-2011, 01:20 PM
  #115
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2006-2007: Stortini was 3rd on the team in majors with 7 but that was only in 29 games. (The leader had 9)

2007-2008: Lead the team with 23 majors, next best was 5.

2008-2009: Lead the team with 25 majors, next best was 8.

2009-2010: Lead the team with 17 majors, next best was 8.

2010-2011: Leads the team with 8 majors, next best is 5.

Say what you will about his fighting ability or lack there of the guy answered the bell consistently during his time here. Pretty well the only guy on the team to do so and be willing to at least grapple with just about all comers.

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02-01-2011, 01:20 PM
  #116
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You're missing the point. The Oilers depth is awful, we have some good rookies who may be top liners some day, and a pile of bottom line guys, some who shouldn't be in the NHL. Our fourth line should be MacIntyre-Cogliano-Jones, to be honest (with Mac only getting a couple of shifts per game). That's how bad our depth is, we're playing guys who have the production of a 4th line player on our 2nd and third line. That needs to stop, and we need to purge some of our bottom line crap to do it.
No, you are missing the point:

We are a last place team. Of course our depth is awful. If we had the depth you think we should have, we wouldn't be a last place team now would we?

When teams have injuries players move up the depth chart. How many forwards do we have out right now? 3, 4?

The point is on average the 4th line is the least influential on the outcome of a game so why do you all spend so much time harping on them?

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02-01-2011, 01:20 PM
  #117
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With regards to Penner, generally he doesn't fight for his teammates, except with Omark. He's stood up for Omark twice already after Omark got belted into the boards. It'd be nice if he would do the same for Hemsky a bit more often.

And Smid, Vandermeer, and Peckham are are all capable of jumping a guy, they should be the ones counted on to step up after a dirty hit, considering one of them is often on the ice.

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02-01-2011, 01:22 PM
  #118
CupofOil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I like Peckham but I've been concerned with his fighting as well.

He regularly allows his opponent to get the hold advantage from the start and is fighting uphill and eating punches each time out due to it.
Peckham starts out each fight on the losing end. Sometimes he turns it around.

Technically he's a poor fighter at this point. Kid can learn I imagine but I'd like to see him study the tapes a lot more. He's losing fights the same way repeatedly. In the intial clinch. He has to watch for that a whole lot better. He's trying to win fights with pure brawn. These guys he's facing are strong enough that you don't tip the table that easily.

He's using poor tactics that got him by in JR and sometimes the AHL but that aren't good enough here.
I do agree with you on this. Peckham fights the way he plays D with little technical ability and a lot of force but hopefully he'll learn as he gains experience because he's becoming a valuable member for us and i would hate to see him become one of the walking wounded.

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02-01-2011, 01:23 PM
  #119
joestevens29
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when did he get married and was it to a local/canadian girl or from states?
This past weekend. I think that's why he didn't play like an everyday all-star. Didn't want to miss his wedding.

As for the who, I have no idea.

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02-01-2011, 01:24 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post

Dont post usually, but just had to add that this fight, is the first time I was actually so disgusted with an Oiler player that I couldn't continue to watch the game.

Hugs the guy for a minute then proceeds to turtle and continue beaking, good riddance this fool is gone.

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02-01-2011, 01:25 PM
  #121
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Somewhere out there, Jacques is counting his blessings and kissing his lucky horseshoe. How was he not the one flown out of town?

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02-01-2011, 01:25 PM
  #122
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
2006-2007: Stortini was 3rd on the team in majors with 7 but that was only in 29 games. (The leader had 9)

2007-2008: Lead the team with 23 majors, next best was 5.

2008-2009: Lead the team with 25 majors, next best was 8.

2009-2010: Lead the team with 17 majors, next best was 8.

2010-2011: Leads the team with 8 majors, next best is 5.

Say what you will about his fighting ability or lack there of the guy answered the bell consistently during his time here. Pretty well the only guy on the team to do so and be willing to at least grapple with just about all comers.
I'll agree there, but what percentage of those fights served any purpose? Most were just the staged style.

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02-01-2011, 01:28 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
Stortini was great for causing a shift to a games momentum... unfortunately, it was usually going the other way.
I haven't read the thread so maybe this has been mentioned yet but Stauffer was saying that he's been told by other tough guys on game days that they target Stortini because it's almost an automatic momentum shift.

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02-01-2011, 01:28 PM
  #124
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I would have been a little mad a few years ago, but he has regressed so much this year... not moving his legs, not finishing checks etc... While JFJ isn't the greatest, he at least finishes his checks this year.

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02-01-2011, 01:29 PM
  #125
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great move. this dude blows. too slow to keep up in the NHL. it takes away from his hitting. cant fight properly.

no doubt he improved over the years and worked his butt off but that doesnt earn you a spot.

he also came off in off-season interviews as a little more casual and laid back like his spot was earned here for a while. then he completely disappeared, tried changing his game by being some super-chirp where he just looked more like an idiot.

echoing someone else's comment above, Fraser and JFJ should be next. so should Mac. begin to draft real players for the bottom 6 role and carve out a quality, intelligent, fast and violent bottom 6.

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