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Kessel has issues creating on his own which others have pointed out. His shooting % numbers in Boston vs Toronto paint the picture fairly well. Going from 15% to 9% over the past 2 seasons tell me that he's looked to to score (obvious) and people know what he's going to do- thus more volume is needed to get the same number of goals.
Would he be more effective on a better team? Sure. But for the money, the limited game he brings in other facets make me think that it may be better to use assets in other manners to be more effective (even if that means taking on a higher cap hit). So with that said, my offer above is as high as I'd go. It wouldn't be high enough to take him out of Toronto likely, but I'd be okay letting him stay up there.
Why is it on this site that some teams fans can't realize that other teams player are good and admit it. I am a die hard habs fan but even I will admit that Phil Kessel is a better forward then anyhting we have minus Cammy (and thats based on opinion as well)
Phil Kessel's problem isnt cause hes "fat" its that he was trade for a 2nd overall pick in Tyler Seguin and possibly another 7-11 pick this year. Thats really it. I really dont believe when burke says he would be happy today with the trade because back then the trade looked better then it is now. In saying that Phil Kessel is still a world class player who can dominate a game. The problem like a lot of Leaf fans say is that they dont have that top line center to dish to him. If Brad Richards ever did make it TO and Kessel didnt perfrom better then yes everything a lot of fans say about him could be true but with a guy that is a top line and world class center he would be lethal with 40-50 goals in a season.
Would I trade the habs first round pick for him............obviously and the 2nd as well. 2 like the Leafs did i would be hesitant on but for a 1st, 2nd and decent prosect I would do it and have an amazing top 6. Personally I think playing with pleky could get him going so think what a Richards would do for the leafs (mind you I dont think he will be a leaf, just saying).
People on this site really need to give some credit to other teams players. Yes I hate the leafs and the bruins even more but I still give them credit for having proper teams and good players. What a lot of this site really needs to do is just lighten up, far to much fanboy-ism!!!!!
Kessel has issues creating on his own which others have pointed out. His shooting % numbers in Boston vs Toronto paint the picture fairly well. Going from 15% to 9% over the past 2 seasons tell me that he's looked to to score (obvious) and people know what he's going to do- thus more volume is needed to get the same number of goals.
Would he be more effective on a better team? Sure. But for the money, the limited game he brings in other facets make me think that it may be better to use assets in other manners to be more effective (even if that means taking on a higher cap hit). So with that said, my offer above is as high as I'd go. It wouldn't be high enough to take him out of Toronto likely, but I'd be okay letting him stay up there.
In a vacuum, if he had no history in Boston, that deal would make sense for us. Getting a young scorer to put next to Krejci would be great. But really, Burke would NOTTTT do that:
Understandable, but again, you finished with the 7th (?) overall pick before u made the trade for Kessel. You were a team before who wasnt that good, so a lot of GMs will recognize that and be aware of attaining Kessel.
Kessel to them is the last piece of a puzzle, a player that puts a 6th-9th team into the 1st-5th range. Of course this is just my opinion, but I see Kessel as a complementary player to make a low PO team into a Cup contender, not a bottom dweller into a PO Contender, if that makes ANY sense, lol.
Yes, we finished with the 7th overall pick the year before. It was a stretch to think that we could make the playoffs.
Funny thing is, (I am a leaf fan living in Alberta) I work with boatloads of Flames/Oilers fans. I remember that offseason and lead up to season start. Even before we aquired Kessel, a large number of the Flames/Oil fans were talking to me about how much of a different team we would be. How our blueline looked to be one of the best in the league. A very hard team to play against. Then when we aquired Kessel, it seemed as if we were coming up on a very good season.
My point: It wasn't JUST pure blind stupidity by Burke&Co, there were a large number of people that actually believed the UFA pieces Burke added were going to improve the team.
Basically everything that could have gone wrong did. All withing the first 14games. Eliminating any playoff hope.
And I agree, Kessel is more of a "final" puzzle piece. Something you'd add down the road. That's the only thing that doesn't complete turf me about all this; we'll eventually need a pure scorer. It just sucks when you don't have any other forwards in the same skill class (ie. A top3 PF or Playmaker etc).
Any my point is, why would any team trade a top ten pick for a player like that?
Maybe I'm off base here, but if you're a bottom ten team I doubt youd be in a position to add a complementary player like Kessel...so why not just keep the valuable cost controlled pick?
How the Leafs have done w/him is just more support that a young developing team shoudl keep their picks and not add one dimensional scoring. Now a team in the PO race who needs scoring? I'd trade a 1st rounder anyday.
Because he's better than what a team could reasonably expect with a top 10 pick.
In my honest opinion, he's in an Iginla-type situation in Calgary - needs a centreman.
Big difference is, Iginla has leadership, power-forward style grit, and plays his heart out and becomes a game changer with that level of pure skill and determination, at least when he was a bit younger. Iginla's game has changed a bit, regressing from pure power-forward style play, but the skill is still there, plus he can make plays - see the year he played with Cammalleri and the Olympic Gold winning assist.
Kessel is not most of those things. A sniper with less grit, apparently only a couple moves, and less determination / game changing skill all while needing that top-line centreman.... at best, a low first line winger, a good, maybe great? second line winger.
So what's this mean his value is? Probably a late second or early third round pick and a mid-level prospect.
There is nothing here to argue with based upon actual demonstrated play of the players noted.
Why is it on this site that some teams fans can't realize that other teams player are good and admit it. I am a die hard habs fan but even I will admit that Phil Kessel is a better forward then anyhting we have minus Cammy (and thats based on opinion as well)
Phil Kessel's problem isnt cause hes "fat" its that he was trade for a 2nd overall pick in Tyler Seguin and possibly another 7-11 pick this year. Thats really it. I really dont believe when burke says he would be happy today with the trade because back then the trade looked better then it is now. In saying that Phil Kessel is still a world class player who can dominate a game. The problem like a lot of Leaf fans say is that they dont have that top line center to dish to him. If Brad Richards ever did make it TO and Kessel didnt perfrom better then yes everything a lot of fans say about him could be true but with a guy that is a top line and world class center he would be lethal with 40-50 goals in a season.
Would I trade the habs first round pick for him............obviously and the 2nd as well. 2 like the Leafs did i would be hesitant on but for a 1st, 2nd and decent prosect I would do it and have an amazing top 6. Personally I think playing with pleky could get him going so think what a Richards would do for the leafs (mind you I dont think he will be a leaf, just saying).
People on this site really need to give some credit to other teams players. Yes I hate the leafs and the bruins even more but I still give them credit for having proper teams and good players. What a lot of this site really needs to do is just lighten up, far to much fanboy-ism!!!!!
Thankyou.
I still think Kessel would be lethal in L.A.... Seems pointless to bring it up here because obviously leafs fans want Schenn and obviously L.A. don't want to give him up, but it's been said you throw Kessel on a proper line, especially one with Kopitar on it, and you're going to see 40 goals easily. Definitely a top line player who I think would thrive in L.A. I wouldn't be against throwing Macarthur or Versteeg in as well to see a deal get done.
To LAK---Kessel, Macarthur/Versteeg
to TOR---Schenn, Hickey
LA seems to be against these types of trades and it's been beaten to death, but I still think it's a good one.
I think the fact that he was the last pick by his peers at the all star game speaks volumns. He will be measured for eternity by how the two 1st round picks he was traded for perform over their careers - sad but true. Funny in Boston he had almost Zack Praise like status as a player - in Toronto he is viewed as a "trade gone wrong" - bizarre...
...and possibly another 7-11 pick this year. Thats really it. What a lot of this site really needs to do is just lighten up, far to much fanboy-ism!!!!!
"possibly" another 7-11 pick this year???? You're dreaming - it will be another lottery pick - I promise you - take that to the bank
People need to look at Kessel's goal production at the tender age of 23 and start comparing it to some players.
After you do this you see he's in company with very few others.
Heck the guy is 'struggling' with 19 goals and playing with AHL players like Crabb.
Kessel will be fine and will hit 40-50 goals one day. You don't trade that.
Iginla hit 30 goals once in his first 5 years. Kessel is on his way to his 3rd straight 30 goal campaign.
Ease up on the kid people - he's 23 and has over 100 career NHL goals. At this rate he'll score 500+ in his career. No he isn't Crosby or Ovechkin but seriously ease up. And stop offering him in trades he isn't going anywhere.
As for the Vancouver poster - he'd probably score 50 goals with the twins.
His value is probably a 1st round pick and a good prospect at the moment. He is worth more then that but his recent play has dropped his value somewhat. Not a player Toronto should trade in any case as they need more decent forwards and not trade the ones they have.
As for being on the Sedin line: Burrows works on that line because he does a lot more then just scoring. He checks really hard, and he creates space for the twins.
With the Canucks I see Kessel more like a second line player with Kesler as the center.
His value is probably a 1st round pick and a good prospect at the moment. He is worth more then that but his recent play has dropped his value somewhat. Not a player Toronto should trade in any case as they need more decent forwards and not trade the ones they have.
As for being on the Sedin line: Burrows works on that line because he does a lot more then just scoring. He checks really hard, and he creates space for the twins.
With the Canucks I see Kessel more like a second line player with Kesler as the center.
That's a pretty good assessment in my opinion.
EDIT: I'm not sure if he'll ever be worth more than that though. I guess it depends who the good prospect is.
Yes, we finished with the 7th overall pick the year before. It was a stretch to think that we could make the playoffs.
Funny thing is, (I am a leaf fan living in Alberta) I work with boatloads of Flames/Oilers fans. I remember that offseason and lead up to season start. Even before we aquired Kessel, a large number of the Flames/Oil fans were talking to me about how much of a different team we would be. How our blueline looked to be one of the best in the league. A very hard team to play against. Then when we aquired Kessel, it seemed as if we were coming up on a very good season.
My point: It wasn't JUST pure blind stupidity by Burke&Co, there were a large number of people that actually believed the UFA pieces Burke added were going to improve the team.
Basically everything that could have gone wrong did. All withing the first 14games. Eliminating any playoff hope.
And I agree, Kessel is more of a "final" puzzle piece. Something you'd add down the road. That's the only thing that doesn't complete turf me about all this; we'll eventually need a pure scorer. It just sucks when you don't have any other forwards in the same skill class (ie. A top3 PF or Playmaker etc).
We're doing it in an unconventional order.
I agree with most of what you said, and yes, some people thought the Leafs would be better than they were, I thought they would be better than they were, but I didn't think they would be a playoff team, neither did many people I know.
I want to add that Kessel is worth 2 1sts and a 2nd from a playoff team quite easily, and apparently that is what Burke thought he was giving up. I thought it would be in the 7-10 range.
Kessel is a very good piece to add to any team that needs a guy who can score and just as importantly, stretch out the defense in a tight checking game. That alone is extremely important in the playoffs. Even if he isn't scoring, he could be causing all kinds of problems for the oppositions D with his speed.
The problem is that Kessel could be the final piece to a championship calibre team, the extra weapon that puts them over the top. He is absolutely worth the price that was paid for him if the team is already a good team on the verge of being a contender.
Unfortunately for the Leafs and the Bruins, they each have what the other team needs.
I have been saying it since the trade happened, this was a bad trade for both teams.
Boston could use Kessel and the Leafs could use Seguin, Knight and the 2011 1st more than what they have now.
Both teams got valuable pieces for their teams, they just got them at the wrong time.
I agree with most of what you said, and yes, some people thought the Leafs would be better than they were, I thought they would be better than they were, but I didn't think they would be a playoff team, neither did many people I know.
I want to add that Kessel is worth 2 1sts and a 2nd from a playoff team quite easily, and apparently that is what Burke thought he was giving up. I thought it would be in the 7-10 range.
Kessel is a very good piece to add to any team that needs a guy who can score and just as importantly, stretch out the defense in a tight checking game. That alone is extremely important in the playoffs. Even if he isn't scoring, he could be causing all kinds of problems for the oppositions D with his speed.
The problem is that Kessel could be the final piece to a championship calibre team, the extra weapon that puts them over the top. He is absolutely worth the price that was paid for him if the team is already a good team on the verge of being a contender.
Unfortunately for the Leafs and the Bruins, they each have what the other team needs.
I have been saying it since the trade happened, this was a bad trade for both teams.
Boston could use Kessel and the Leafs could use Seguin, Knight and the 2011 1st more than what they have now.
Both teams got valuable pieces for their teams, they just got them at the wrong time.
Kessel is a first line winger. The problem for Toronto is that he's the sort of first line winger you add to a team with a developed core to add a serious scoring punch, not the sort you build around. Honestly, I think he'd make the perfect addition to the Crosby line. Both he and Crosby have enough offensive vision and goalscoring talent to feed off of eachother. Toss a 1st line capable banger on the other wing to make space (which they already have in Kunitz) and you've got a tremendous line.
Kessel is an excellent player in the right situation; Toronto is not the right situation.
I agree with most of what you said, and yes, some people thought the Leafs would be better than they were, I thought they would be better than they were, but I didn't think they would be a playoff team, neither did many people I know.
I want to add that Kessel is worth 2 1sts and a 2nd from a playoff team quite easily, and apparently that is what Burke thought he was giving up. I thought it would be in the 7-10 range.
Kessel is a very good piece to add to any team that needs a guy who can score and just as importantly, stretch out the defense in a tight checking game. That alone is extremely important in the playoffs. Even if he isn't scoring, he could be causing all kinds of problems for the oppositions D with his speed.
The problem is that Kessel could be the final piece to a championship calibre team, the extra weapon that puts them over the top. He is absolutely worth the price that was paid for him if the team is already a good team on the verge of being a contender.
Unfortunately for the Leafs and the Bruins, they each have what the other team needs.
I have been saying it since the trade happened, this was a bad trade for both teams.
Boston could use Kessel and the Leafs could use Seguin, Knight and the 2011 1st more than what they have now.
Both teams got valuable pieces for their teams, they just got them at the wrong time.
bang on, especially the bolded.
being a serious cup contender; i'd trade 2 firsts for kessel.
great post
Unless we have an injury, he wouldnt be playing there unless he replaced Gionta or Cammy...which is highly unlikely. We have enough small underproducing players.
Im sure he could fetch a top 10 pick.
Your top 6 would look something like this with Phil in there:
god some people are stupid. forget for a second kessel plays for the leafs. he would be in every teams top 6
