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Old
01-31-2011, 05:30 PM
  #26
Zip15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed View Post
We also saw the Flyers successfully sign Hartnell and Timonen in 2007 after trading a first round pick for their rights. A lot of players aren't thrilled with the idea of playing in Buffalo until they get here. Then they don't want to leave. Trading for his rights gives the Sabres a chance to show him why. Miller and Vanek would probably fight over who gets to show him around. They could recruit his buddy Dave Andreychuk to help with the sales pitch. Leading a team with a new deep-pocketed owner who's committed to winning a cup might appeal to Richards. They'll never know if he would have come here unless they try.
I don't think a week in Buffalo will do the trick. I think there has to be some level of pre-existing desire or willingness on the player's part to live in a certain market. Richards will have his choice as to where he's going to play next season, and I cannot foresee Buffalo being high on the list. Of course it's speculation, but it's backed by years of players taking the same or lesser money to play elsewhere.

I'm not going to applaud blowing a draft pick (likely a 2nd or 3rd) in the name of surface negotiation with a player who likely has no intention of signing here. That's activity, not achievement. Make him a great offer on July 1, and let the chips fall where they may.

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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Also, it can't just be assumed that everyone prefers living in a large city and huge media market. Some people don't.
I agree. But Richards has stated that he loves Toronto and thinks it's a great hockey city. Meanwhile, Torts coaches the Rangers and the two won a Cup together. He also has a connection to Dallas. In addition, many other teams will court Richards and likely submit bids similar to what Buffalo is going to throw out there. It's not gonna happen.

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02-01-2011, 06:22 PM
  #27
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Brad Richards or bust?

The UFA crops for the next two years is pretty grim...not that many big names..

If we're gonna clear salary for Pegula to go crazy, I don't see a lot of players to go crazy over....

Looks like we'll have to rebuild through Darcy's favorite avenue, trading for RFA's or pending UFA's...

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02-01-2011, 06:27 PM
  #28
chadthestampede
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What exactly is this thread about? I thought we've already established that Richards is never coming here?

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02-01-2011, 06:30 PM
  #29
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The point is...

I wouldn't get too excited over constructing a winner through Free Agency...

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02-01-2011, 06:45 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by rabi View Post
I wouldn't get too excited over constructing a winner through Free Agency...
If you meant in general, the Flyers were able to make the ECF in 07-08 after being the worst team in the league in 06-07.

While they made some good trades, their major moves were signing Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen that offseason.

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02-01-2011, 07:06 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kassian View Post
If you meant in general, the Flyers were able to make the ECF in 07-08 after being the worst team in the league in 06-07.

While they made some good trades, their major moves were signing Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen that offseason.
Until last playoffs, no Flyers fan would've included Briere in the core. Their "core" was built almost exclusively through the draft and trades: Pronger (trade), Richards (draft), Carter (draft), Timonen (traded for and signed), Gagne (draft), Giroux (draft), Coburn (trade), Hartnell (traded for and signed).

Building your team on July 1 is not the way to go.

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02-01-2011, 07:34 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Until last playoffs, no Flyers fan would've included Briere in the core. Their "core" was built almost exclusively through the draft and trades: Pronger (trade), Richards (draft), Carter (draft), Timonen (traded for and signed), Gagne (draft), Giroux (draft), Coburn (trade), Hartnell (traded for and signed).

Building your team on July 1 is not the way to go.
What Flyers fans thought of Briere is really besides the point. He was clearly their best player in their Cup run last year. One could easily argue they wouldn't have made it to the finals without him.

Yes drafting and trading were important, but so was getting Briere in free agency.

The Sabres have already built a lot of the framework of a potentially successful team through the draft. They have productive vets in Vanek, Roy, and Pominville playing key roles, and now they have a whole new class of young guys on the verge of making an impact.

Making a big free agent signing is something they haven't done.

Look at Chicago as well. Yes a majority of that team was built through the draft and trades, but having Hossa and Campbell gave them an extra level of depth that was obviously helpful.


Last edited by ColonelForbin: 02-01-2011 at 07:53 PM.
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Old
02-01-2011, 08:00 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
What Flyers fans thought of Briere is really besides the point. He was clearly their best player in their Cup run last year. One could easily argue they wouldn't have made it to the finals without him.

Yes drafting and trading were important in the building of their team, but signing Briere in free agency was a move that certainly made a huge impact.

The Sabres have already built a lot of the framework of a potentially successful team through the draft. They have productive vets in Vanek, Roy, and Pominville playing key roles, and now they have a whole new class of young guys on the verge of making an impact.

Making a big free agent signing is something they haven't done.

Look at Chicago as well. Yes a majority of that team was built through the draft and trades, but having Hossa and Campbell gave them an extra level of depth that was obviously helpful.
You missed the point. The point was that great teams build primarily through drafts and trades. The overwhelming majority of the talk recently is about how Pegula is going to come in here and spend, spend, spend, especially on UFAs. That's not how you build a winner.

And you cannot believe for a second that both Chicago and Philly wouldn't have liked to have been rid of Campbell's and Briere's contracts at many points before last season's playoffs.

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02-01-2011, 08:18 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You missed the point. The point was that great teams build primarily through drafts and trades. The overwhelming majority of the talk recently is about how Pegula is going to come in here and spend, spend, spend, especially on UFAs. That's not how you build a winner.

And you cannot believe for a second that both Chicago and Philly wouldn't have liked to have been rid of Campbell's and Briere's contracts at many points before last season's playoffs.
Your point isn't reality. You act as if Briere is just some after thought to the Flyers success, or is somehow less important than the players they drafted.

He was their best player during their cup run. He is among their leading scorers this season. His presence gives them important depth in leadership and offensive skill.

He took time to adjust to new teammates and a new system, and he dealt with injuries during his early time there. But now he has adjusted, and the team would be significantly less skilled without him.

Saying that the Sabres signing Richards would be building through free agency is kind of ridiculous. The Sabres have to be near the top of the league in terms of having players on their roster that they drafted and that came up through their farm system.

They have impressive depth on the wings and on defense thanks to their drafting. They also have a top-six center and goaltender who are huge parts of their team, both who were drafted by the team.

I agree that you need to be careful who you hand out huge contracts too, but to say that teams haven't found success by using that avenue in addition to drafting and trades isn't correct.

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02-01-2011, 08:43 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Your point isn't reality. You act as if Briere is just some after thought to the Flyers success, or is somehow less important than the players they drafted.

He was their best player during their cup run. He is among their leading scorers this season. His presence gives them important depth in leadership and offensive skill.
You must've missed the part where I expressly qualified my statement by saying, "Until last year's playoffs..." He was an afterthought on that team for most of his tenure until that point. Tell me that you don't believe Philly would've loved to have dumped that contract long before last season's playoffs.

Quote:
Saying that the Sabres signing Richards would be building through free agency is kind of ridiculous. The Sabres have to be near the top of the league in terms of having players on their roster that they drafted and that came up through their farm system.
Who said that? Me?! Look again at Kassian's post I replied to. He was saying that the Flyers built a winner through free agency. I pointed out that was wrong.

Signing Richards would be fantastic, even if unrealistic.

Quote:
I agree that you need to be careful who you hand out huge contracts too, but to say that teams haven't found success by using that avenue in addition to drafting and trades isn't correct.
Well, fortunately, I haven't said that. This all started when you misconstrued what I was saying to Kassian, which I'll wrap up in a tidy bow: Philly is still built primarily through trades and drafting, not free agency. That's it.

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02-01-2011, 08:55 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You must've missed the part where I expressly qualified my statement by saying, "Until last year's playoffs..." He was an afterthought on that team for most of his tenure until that point. Tell me that you don't believe Philly would've loved to have dumped that contract long before last season's playoffs.



Who said that? Me?! Look again at Kassian's post I replied to. He was saying that the Flyers built a winner through free agency. I pointed out that was wrong.

Signing Richards would be fantastic, even if unrealistic.



Well, fortunately, I haven't said that. This all started when you misconstrued what I was saying to Kassian, which I'll wrap up in a tidy bow: Philly is still built primarily through trades and drafting, not free agency. That's it.
You made it seem as though you were using Briere as an example in an argument against big free agent signings. If you weren't doing that I apologize.

However, that's how it sounded.

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02-01-2011, 09:16 PM
  #37
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You got me interested in this topic Zip, as I figured in my head that Philly was built primarily through UFA.

It's actually very balanced, on their roster:
6 draftees
8 acquired through trade
8 acquired through UFA

Hartnell and Timmonen are both grey area trades, as I believe both were UFA's, but both signed with Flyers. I listed them as trades though.

Interesting.

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02-01-2011, 09:28 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You missed the point. The point was that great teams build primarily through drafts and trades. The overwhelming majority of the talk recently is about how Pegula is going to come in here and spend, spend, spend, especially on UFAs. That's not how you build a winner.

And you cannot believe for a second that both Chicago and Philly wouldn't have liked to have been rid of Campbell's and Briere's contracts at many points before last season's playoffs.
And you also cannot believe for a second that Campbell and Briere had nothing to do with the recent success of Philly and Chicago.

Building your own stars is most important, but you need to build your roster in all ways. Through the draft, through trades, and through free agency. You can't become a cup contender by going through only one or two of those routes.

And by FA signings, I don't mean fringe 4th line 35 year olds like Niedermayer.

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02-01-2011, 09:45 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Crazy Tasty View Post
You got me interested in this topic Zip, as I figured in my head that Philly was built primarily through UFA.

It's actually very balanced, on their roster:
6 draftees
8 acquired through trade
8 acquired through UFA

Hartnell and Timmonen are both grey area trades, as I believe both were UFA's, but both signed with Flyers. I listed them as trades though.

Interesting.
i havent taken the time to do this but it would be fun to see the discrepancy between the comparison of that makeup of the flyers vs the makeup of the sabres..

then flip that around and look at the skill/production of the players the flyers traded for/signed vs the ones the sabres have..

draft core vs draft core i bet we are neck in neck with philly.. i think their gains have been made through transaction. again, i havent taken the time to break it down so i could be completely off in that assumption but hey, tis the season to belittle the sabres recent history

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02-01-2011, 10:05 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Tasty View Post
You got me interested in this topic Zip, as I figured in my head that Philly was built primarily through UFA.

It's actually very balanced, on their roster:
6 draftees
8 acquired through trade
8 acquired through UFA

Hartnell and Timmonen are both grey area trades, as I believe both were UFA's, but both signed with Flyers. I listed them as trades though.

Interesting.


i havent taken the time to do this but it would be fun to see the discrepancy between the comparison of that makeup of the flyers vs the makeup of the sabres..

then flip that around and look at the skill/production of the players the flyers traded for/signed vs the ones the sabres have..

draft core vs draft core i bet we are neck in neck with philly.. i think their gains have been made through transaction. again, i havent taken the time to break it down so i could be completely off in that assumption but hey, tis the season to belittle the sabres recent history

EDIT:
decided to take a few minutes just to do a simple comparison.. not to get too far off topic, but i've always considered doing this.

*if players seem out of place i apologize im uber tired - but i did place players in slots by how they were originally acquired.

*fixed*
sabres draft core vs flyers:

ennis - giroux
gerbe - nodl
pominville - van riemsdyk
roy - richards
vanek - carter
stafford -
kaleta -
gaustad -
byron -

sekera - bartulis
myers -
weber -


miller - boucher



sabres trade acquisitions vs flyers:

connolly - leino
grier - hartnell
- carcillo

rivet - pronger
- timonen
- coburn
- carle
- walker

sabres FA acqisitions vs flyers:

niedermayer - briere
mccormick - zherdev
- betts
- shelley

montador - meszaros
morrisonn - 0'donnel
leopold

LOLime - bobrovsky


nothing monumental here, but just interesting to compare apples to oranges once in a while.


Last edited by fightclubber25: 02-02-2011 at 10:15 AM.
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Old
02-02-2011, 12:36 AM
  #41
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Aquiering Briere was the best thing the flyers did the last decade. Center depth is making you to a contender these days. they sure had to pay a lot of money but briere is a pretty good center and he has an extra gear at playoffs and he is way better than roy.

just a few examples:

PHI - Richards, Carter, Briere
PIT - Crosby, Malkin, Staal
VAN - Sedin, Kesler and top prospect Hodgson

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02-02-2011, 06:37 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
Aquiering Briere was the best thing the flyers did the last decade. Center depth is making you to a contender these days. they sure had to pay a lot of money but briere is a pretty good center and he has an extra gear at playoffs and he is way better than roy.

just a few examples:

PHI - Richards, Carter, Briere
PIT - Crosby, Malkin, Staal
VAN - Sedin, Kesler and top prospect Hodgson
Sorry, but that's overstating it.

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02-02-2011, 06:49 AM
  #43
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[*snip*]Having at least two, if not three dynamic centers is a major component of almost every Cup winning team in the last 30 years.[/*snip*]

Buffalo doesn't have it and until they address their glaring weaknesses in the middle, having a quality goaltender, a sniper off the wing and a Norris-capable defenseman is not enough to overcome not having the horses in the middle. They may as well make a big play for Richards since they are going to need to fill that void somehow and they're not el stinko enough to be drafting in the top 5 to pluck the guy via the draft.

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02-02-2011, 07:14 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
[*snip*]Having at least two, if not three dynamic centers is a major component of almost every Cup winning team in the last 30 years.[/*snip*]

Buffalo doesn't have it and until they address their glaring weaknesses in the middle, having a quality goaltender, a sniper off the wing and a Norris-capable defenseman is not enough to overcome not having the horses in the middle. They may as well make a big play for Richards since they are going to need to fill that void somehow and they're not el stinko enough to be drafting in the top 5 to pluck the guy via the draft.
The thing that worries me is that Richards will be 31yo when he hits UFA.

If he commands a 7 or 8 year deal, that's going to be $7 to 8M against the cap for a guy that is closer to 40 than 30 for 2 or 3 years.

That would be hard for me to envision Regier even thinking about.

And I don't know that it isn't the right way to think.

Now if they could swing a crazy deal like Roy for Schenn and then you have Richards as a mentor, that might work.....

It's going to be interesting to see if Regier sticks around. And if not, it will be really interesting to see if the next GM blows things up and starts moving the big "core" guys (Roy, Vanek, and Miller).

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02-02-2011, 08:34 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by fightclubber25 View Post
i havent taken the time to do this but it would be fun to see the discrepancy between the comparison of that makeup of the flyers vs the makeup of the sabres..

then flip that around and look at the skill/production of the players the flyers traded for/signed vs the ones the sabres have..

draft core vs draft core i bet we are neck in neck with philly.. i think their gains have been made through transaction. again, i havent taken the time to break it down so i could be completely off in that assumption but hey, tis the season to belittle the sabres recent history

EDIT:
decided to take a few minutes just to do a simple comparison.. not to get too far off topic, but i've always considered doing this.

*if players seem out of place i apologize im uber tired - but i did place players in slots by how they were originally acquired.


sabres draft core vs flyers:

ennis - giroux
gerbe - nodl
pominville - van riemsdyk
roy - richards
vanek - carter
stafford -
kaleta -
gaustad -
byron -

sekera - bartulis
myers -
weber -


miller - bobrovsky



sabres trade acquisitions vs flyers:

connolly - leino
grier - hartnell
- carcillo

rivet - timonen
- coburn
- carle
- walker

sabres FA acqisitions vs flyers:

niedermayer - briere
mccormick - zherdev
- betts
- shelley

montador - pronger
morrisonn - meszaros
leopold - 0'donnel

LOLime - leighton


nothing monumental here, but just interesting to compare apples to oranges once in a while.
Not to nit pick, but Bobrovsky was a UFA (undrafted) signing.

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02-02-2011, 08:45 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
The thing that worries me is that Richards will be 31yo when he hits UFA.

If he commands a 7 or 8 year deal, that's going to be $7 to 8M against the cap for a guy that is closer to 40 than 30 for 2 or 3 years.

That would be hard for me to envision Regier even thinking about.

And I don't know that it isn't the right way to think.

Now if they could swing a crazy deal like Roy for Schenn and then you have Richards as a mentor, that might work.....

It's going to be interesting to see if Regier sticks around. And if not, it will be really interesting to see if the next GM blows things up and starts moving the big "core" guys (Roy, Vanek, and Miller).

Given Richard's age, I see any contract he gets as containing a couple 500k years at the end to bring his overall cap hit down:

first 5 years: 9 million per

year 6: 5 million

year 7: 3 million

year 8: 1 million

years 9 & 10: 500k each.

10 years, 55 million, 5.5 million dollar cap hit.

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02-02-2011, 08:48 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip View Post
Given Richard's age, I see any contract he gets as containing a couple 500k years at the end to bring his overall cap hit down:

first 5 years: 9 million per

year 6: 5 million

year 7: 3 million

year 8: 1 million

years 9 & 10: 500k each.

10 years, 55 million, 5.5 million dollar cap hit.
After the kovulkchuk deal, no way a front loaded contract like that goes through.

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02-02-2011, 08:56 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Given Richard's age, I see any contract he gets as containing a couple 500k years at the end to bring his overall cap hit down:

first 5 years: 9 million per

year 6: 5 million

year 7: 3 million

year 8: 1 million

years 9 & 10: 500k each.

10 years, 55 million, 5.5 million dollar cap hit.
After last summer, I can't see any team screwing around with anything that could even remotely be considered cap circumvention. Plus, per that agreement between the NHL and NHLPA, I think for any deal whose average value is greater than $5.75 in the three highest-paid seasons, the player cannot be paid less than $1 mil in the lowest-paid season(s) if the player is 35-40 in those seasons, which Richards would be. I agree that the deal will likely be frontloaded, but I don't think we'll see anything around the league minimum this time around. Assuming he gets something like a 7yr, $52.5m deal, I think it'd look like this:

Year 1: $10 mil
Year 2: $10 mil
Year 3: $10 mil
Year 4: $9 mil
Year 5: $8 mil
Year 6: $3 mil
Year 7: $2.5 mil

The last two years are enough to keep the dogs off you while still making a buyout palatable if Richards declines in his mid-30's.

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02-02-2011, 08:58 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
After the kovulkchuk deal, no way a front loaded contract like that goes through.
The contract I'm proposing is structured more along the lines of the Pronger and Hossa contracts, which the NHL did not reject. Kovalchuk's rejected contract contained upwards of 7 "bonus" years designed to push his cap hit down.

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02-02-2011, 09:06 AM
  #50
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The contract I'm proposing is structured more along the lines of the Pronger and Hossa contracts, which the NHL did not reject. Kovalchuk's rejected contract contained upwards of 7 "bonus" years designed to push his cap hit down.
You still are paying him below $1mil in Year 9, when he's 40, and Year 10, when he's older than 40. That directly violates the agreement discussed in the below link. No team is going to be foolish enough to even flirt with cap circumvention this year. The climate has changed. The league is emboldened because it knows the arbitrator will likely find in its favor.

Also, the league has never said the Hossa, Savard, and Luongo contracts do not circumvent the cap. Rather, they agreed to suspend their investigation of those contracts as consideration for the agreement encapsulated in the below link. Big difference.

http://www.nhlpa.com/News/Media-Rele...2-9D3665909841

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