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Old
02-03-2011, 11:08 PM
  #226
Janerixon
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Originally Posted by Rodent View Post
Seriously?

"Mentoring"?

1) DZ doesn't need a mentor. He needs a shrink. Right now Michael isn't listening to anybody. No amount of mentoring is gonna fix him. What he needs is some serious humble pie to cleanse his mind of all the misplaced confidence he has that he knows what to do with the puck in a given situation.

2) In a few years (your words, not mine) Gilroy won't need a mentor. He's "getting it" already. And he's improving quickly without Kaberle's help. I wouldn't change a thing.

3) What do you know about Kaberle's "mentoring" capability that makes you qualified to invoke "mentoring" as a motivation for Slats to acquire Tomas? Seriously. Tell me what your credentials are when it comes to Tomas. In fact, when you use words like "probably" in connection to Kaberle being a good mentor, you don't exactly instill confidence in your judgement.

4) But let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that Tomas will indeed be a valuable mentor in "a few more years" using your words.

Then why does NYR need to sacrifice any prospects or picks to obtain Kaberle as a rental at this time? If Sather waits until July 1, 2011, then Tomas will be just as available to NYR for the purpose of mentoring as he would be as a rental costing NYR picks/prospects.

5) Why is Kaberle the best choice for the role of player/mentor when (according to your timetable) the mentoring comes down the road? Why couldn't some other veteran defenseman be available a year from now or two years from now who would not just be as good a mentor as Kaberle, but would also bring more production on ice than Kaberle in this era of salary capped payrolls?

Your invocation of "mentoring" as a desirable feature suggests that we should be less fussy over Kaberle's plummeting numbers because what he doesn't do on the ice is somehow compensated for by his "mentoring".

Why even bring up "mentoring" if it isn't to distract folks from what really matters here, which is on-ice bang-for-the buck in a salary-capped era?

Put another way...

What if you were buying a second-hand Ferrari and gravytrain6t told you...

"Well, it doesn't go more than 50 MPH any more. But in a few more years you'll appreciate that it's got four cupholders."

Why bring up the cupholders if it isn't to distract folks from "50 MPH"?
Bringing in Kaberle as a Free agent is not a realistic possibility as Anisimov, Boyle, Dubinsky, Callahan, Sauer all are due raises and then we have to decide if we bring back Eminger and Fedotenko who would get a raise and what to do with Gilroy. I am not even going to mention Prospal so where does this money come to get Kaberle as a Free Agent, we have Redden's summer cap hit and we probably should buy-out drury to open some cap space we already need to sign our own guys.

Unless a few trades are made and drury is bought out or somehow agrees to be traded or retires I don't see how we sign a Kaberle or even consider a Brad Richards.

The point of adding Kaberle is to help our PP now since we lack a PP quarterback and then he can come off the books at the end of the year. I am not in favor of trading for him if the cost is too high (which I assume it will be) unless Sather can somehow fleece Burke or he can trade him prospects that he thinks won't ever pan out (like many teams did to us when we had the firesale with leetch, nedved, kovalev, simon, Barnaby, etc of years back).

Sather's track record as I am sure you know, is he likes to add a defenseman during the season especially before the playoffs

Ozolinsh
Gusarov
Poti
Backman
Mara
Morris
Erikkson

Our PP failure is costing us games, a deal will be made. I would love for him to trade for a younger d-man who can run the PP, but I am not sure who said magical player is and what it will cost to get him.

As for Kaberle and mentoring, I don't know how you can say Gilroy is getting it. His offensive production is a whopping 3 goals and 5 assists in 38 games and over the last 10-15 games he has been getting steady PP time. His defensive zone play has improved as has his confidence, but his offensive production is nowhere near what was expected when he was signed. Who has Kaberle even had the chance to really mentor? Carlo Colaiacovo who he played with for parts of 3 seasons, Luke Schenn who he has played with for the past 2 seasons, or maybe Ian white who he played with for over 4 seasons. I would say it would be a pretty safe bet if you asked these players if they learned and benefitted from playing with Kaberle a 12 year pro they would all say yes. Ian White has turned into a good d-man who can provide some offense. Our oldest d-man is Steve Eminger who is 27, how much can the kids learn from him? Is Staal really ready to teach the kids about offense when his game is still developing in that aspect?

I really don't know where you get point #5 that he is the best option for a mentor as I didn't even see that posted? Just seems like an all out attack on a poster and you provide no evidence that Kaberle would be a detriment to the growth of some of our young d-men who have some offensive capabilities. You ask him what are his credentials, what are yours because you write a blog? I think you could have made your points without coming off like a snob.


Last edited by Janerixon: 02-03-2011 at 11:19 PM.
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Old
02-04-2011, 06:00 AM
  #227
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Kaberle is not the elixir. The Leafs haven't made the playoffs since 2004. Good player. Good PP QB skills but it stops there. Instead of wanting to play in a winning situation,he is content to stay in Toronto missing the playoffs again. Toronto wants more than he is worth. Burke spent last summer soliciting offers and didn't move him when Kaberle still had a full season remaining on his contract. Deadline is 41 days before the end of the regular season. How much is that worth?

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02-04-2011, 07:08 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Kaberle is not the elixir. The Leafs haven't made the playoffs since 2004. Good player. Good PP QB skills but it stops there. Instead of wanting to play in a winning situation,he is content to stay in Toronto missing the playoffs again. Toronto wants more than he is worth. Burke spent last summer soliciting offers and didn't move him when Kaberle still had a full season remaining on his contract. Deadline is 41 days before the end of the regular season. How much is that worth?
So tired of this Kaberle talk...like he would take us to the Cup all by himself.

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02-04-2011, 07:23 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
So tired of this Kaberle talk...like he would take us to the Cup all by himself.
Yeah. He can't fight at all.

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02-04-2011, 07:27 AM
  #230
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Ever since I suggested that I would like the addition of Kovalev he has elevated his game. My conclusion is that he must have read my post and has responded. Hey, it's as logical as some of the other stuff posted here.

All kidding aside. Our dmen are good enough right now, in my opinion. Last night once again it was shown that what the Rangers lack sorely is offensive creativity and the ability to finish.

I'm not saying to go get a rental, necessarily, but if we are, I believe him to be a perfect fit for this team's immediate needs. I wish we had gotten Kovalev instead of Wolski. Wolski may eventaully work out, but guys who continue to burn up good will usually continue to do so.

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02-04-2011, 07:37 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Yeah. He can't fight at all.
Exactly, I know u been watching the game for 100 years but do you understand it at all?

Let's give up 2 quality prospects and a player on our current roster for Kaberle, so he can help us lose in the first round...sounds like a plan to me.

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02-04-2011, 07:37 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Ever since I suggested that I would like the addition of Kovalev he has elevated his game. My conclusion is that he must have read my post and has responded. Hey, it's as logical as some of the other stuff posted here.

All kidding aside. Our dmen are good enough right now, in my opinion. Last night once again it was shown that what the Rangers lack sorely is offensive creativity and the ability to finish.

I'm not saying to go get a rental, necessarily, but if we are, I believe him to be a perfect fit for this team's immediate needs. I wish we had gotten Kovalev instead of Wolski. Wolski may eventaully work out, but guys who continue to burn up good will usually continue to do so.
Kovalev.....LOL!

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02-04-2011, 07:52 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Kovalev.....LOL!
Your hockey acumen extols the values of a Boogaard or a Colton Orr and laughs at an Alexei Kovalev. Honestly, this is almost too easy. Keep your brilliant comments coming.

The Rangers are having trouble scoring and your solution is to bring in a thug. The science of hockey has passed you by. This assumes that you ever understand how to judge the talents and merits of a player. Stick with UFC. Your knowledge there far outshines mine, no doubt.

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02-04-2011, 07:54 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Exactly, I know u been watching the game for 100 years but do you understand it at all?

Let's give up 2 quality prospects and a player on our current roster for Kaberle, so he can help us lose in the first round...sounds like a plan to me.
By the way, please point out where I ever said to give up two quality prospects to acquire Kaberle. You're so addled that you can't even argue with my points, so you're arguing with Harvey the imaginary rabbit. Hell, I never even advocated getting Kaberle. Pay attention.

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02-04-2011, 07:55 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Kovalev.....LOL!
By the way, Kovalev has been mouch tougher than some of the thugs you love. The problem is that you have probably never understood what toughness on the ice even means.

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02-04-2011, 09:00 AM
  #236
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By the way, Kovalev has been mouch tougher than some of the thugs you love. The problem is that you have probably never understood what toughness on the ice even means.
How well did Kovalev work out for us the last time he was here and he was 8 years younger...btw we gave us Mike Sameuleson for him...how did that trade workout for us?

You didn't have to point out what it would take to get Kaberle because that is what Burke is going to ask for...

Watch the Stars-Bruins game last night...the Bruins manhandled the Stars in every capacity.

Now you can bring in Kovalev or Ray Whitney or Cory Stillman but this team needs size if they want to compete...my ideal choice would be Ryan Clowe.

You have seen one cup in your lifetime and the best you can do is Kovalev, amazing!

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02-04-2011, 09:33 AM
  #237
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This team needs someone to run the PP as it is clear that Del zotto should not be, Zucc is not the right guy either, Drury hahahha, and Stepan is not that guy as well.

I am not suggesting we overpay for Kaberle, I am pointing out Sather's track record of dealing for a d-man for a playoff push.
Ozo
Gusarov
Backman
Mara
Morris

The evidence is undeniable, he will make a trade for better or worse, I hope he can land a younger d-man who can run our PP and will not just be a rental. Who that player is I am not sure because I don't know what he wants to give up and who is available. He may go for a younger guy and deal a prospect or pick with a roster player, or he may just go for the rental.

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02-04-2011, 09:38 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Good player. Good PP QB skills but it stops there. Instead of wanting to play in a winning situation,he is content to stay in Toronto missing the playoffs again.
Brian Leetch didn't want to be traded from the Rangers, can I really fault a guy for wanting to stay with the team he has been with his entire career? Is Kaberle the answer to all our prayers, No. Can he help our PP, yes. Would I mind seeing him here, all depends on the cost. If Burke wants the house than no thanks obviously, but as I said before, when Sather had his firesale a few years back (nedved, Barnaby, simon, kovalev, leetch) we traded players for prospects that never panned out, maybe Sather has a prospect or two that the leafs may take that Sather has the feeling will never reach the NHL or their potential. I am curious who and what he moves for a PP quarterback.

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02-04-2011, 09:41 AM
  #239
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They are not going to trade a top prospect for a rental this year. They will go around the league with Christensen, Gilroy and picks and see what that can get them

A cheaper option like a Babchuk makes sense although I have no idea who will be available come the deadline. Flames are sneaking back in the race and the WEST is messed with so many teams still in it. EAST on the other hand is pretty much 9 teams right now although the Sabres could get back into the race with a few wins on games in hand..........

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Old
02-04-2011, 09:45 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
They are not going to trade a top prospect for a rental this year. They will go around the league with Christensen, Gilroy and picks and see what that can get them

A cheaper option like a Babchuk makes sense although I have no idea who will be available come the deadline. Flames are sneaking back in the race and the WEST is messed with so many teams still in it. EAST on the other hand is pretty much 9 teams right now although the Sabres could get back into the race with a few wins on games in hand..........
Who said anything about trading a top prospect? I don't think a Kreider or Hagelin are even allowed to be discussed. I think trading a roster player and a prospect is a reality if they are trading for a younger player who is NOT a rental and they believe can help this team as it grows.

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02-04-2011, 10:36 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Janerixon View Post
This team needs someone to run the PP as it is clear that Del zotto should not be, Zucc is not the right guy either, Drury hahahha, and Stepan is not that guy as well.

I am not suggesting we overpay for Kaberle, I am pointing out Sather's track record of dealing for a d-man for a playoff push.
Ozo
Gusarov
Backman
Mara
Morris

The evidence is undeniable, he will make a trade for better or worse, I hope he can land a younger d-man who can run our PP and will not just be a rental. Who that player is I am not sure because I don't know what he wants to give up and who is available. He may go for a younger guy and deal a prospect or pick with a roster player, or he may just go for the rental.
Well I'm glad Mcilrath is tough and can fight, but maybe Pierre Mcguire was right and the Rangers were wrong with that pick. They had an opportunity to grab Fowler and passed (then we could have held onto every single prospect the Rangers have, and any future round draft picks without having to give up one player for Kaberle) .

Not to mention there were a few other exceptional forward talents they passed up on (in the 08' draft as well).
That's what I thought team's do with their first round pick. Look for elite talent or the bpa which is pretty much in line (or seems to be) with the mind set of Rangers fans on hf.
I hope McIlrath is touted as one of the better defensemen in not just Juniors, but around the world and in any league after he's the second defenseman chosen in a draft.

I know DZ is young and has a long way to go and could be great, but I have to wonder why not only 1, but 9 team's (along with their scouts) elected to choose a different player on defense.

Best case scenario with Fowler, is you have 2 star puck moving defense men in a couple of years (which opens up the door for more options).

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02-04-2011, 10:53 AM
  #242
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Richards is a center. The game is turning more and more into a skating game. Richards is not a strong skater, and when he grow older I am seriously afraid of how he would match up in the East/Atlantic, going up against all the all-star forwards we have around us.
You said it yourself, Richards is not a strong skater. Yet he's one of the best offensive players in the league. He doesn't need to be a strong skater, because he's an elite puckhandler and passer. Playing on the Rangers, he'd be paired with one of the NHL's top speedsters in Gaborik, and almost certainly another fast player that can create space for him, like Dubinsky or Kreider or Zuccarello.

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And lets not pretend that Richards is a player who can perform well in any environment. He is very very dependent on his environment. From the age of 26-30 basically he scored way under a PPG in a prime role, with good players around him (but not on a overal solid team).
That's not true. He's 30 now, and he's score 91 points last season and is on pace for nearly the same amount this season. He had 48 points in a 56 game, injury plagued season on a terrible Dallas team in 2008-09, and in 2007-08, he scored 51 points in 62 games on the worst team in the league. 11 points in 12 games as soon as he got traded to the Stars.

He's also a PPG player in the playoffs and, of course, a Conn Smythe Trophy Winner.

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2. Kaberle is a D. Typically, D's like him have their best seasons when they are around 34-36 y/o. Lidström had his only PPG, and best, season exactly at the age of 36. There have NEVER been a great team in this league that have not been able to carry a non-physical D. Back there you do not have to skate as much, and can live on your smarts.
I'm not arguing that Kaberle is bad. I like Kaberle, and I wouldn't mind him on this team. But your argument that Richards is somehow a worse investment doesn't make sense, especially when this team needs a center and a PPQB more than anything else. Richards is at least just as good a PPQB as Kaberle, and IMO, a better one.

Quote:
3. Money. Kaberle is bound to get around 5.5-6.5 I guess, Richards could exceed that by a pretty wide margin.
I guarantee you he won't get more than 7.5 million, and I'm almost positive he won't get more than 7.

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Bottom line, I am sold that Kaberle for the coming 4-5 years can play a prime role on a contender. His cap hit will match his production -- no doubt.
Maybe he can, but so can Richards, and Richards is a better player who plays the more important position, especially for this team's needs.

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I feel like Richards is much more of a uncertain bet. Initially, it would be a ***** if he would come here and fail like Drury and Gomez. But you never know, Eriksson and Neal are two helluva players who opens up a ton of ice for him in Dallas, and he can concentrate on what he does best... But down the road, when his legs starts becoming even slower and he face 1st overal pick after 1st overal pick night after night in the East? When the entire NY press starts mentioning night after night that he is among the best paid players in the entire league -- but still can not even remotely skate against the kids he is up against?
But he's not a particularly good skater even now, and the Rangers have plenty of fast players who are capable of opening up space for him. He doesn't need to be fast, because he's a better passer and a smarter player than most. I'm sorry Ola, but anyone who tries to compare a Richards signing to a Drury and Gomez signing is way, way off. There is no comparison. Signing Drury and Gomez made NO sense from any angle. Signing Richards makes complete sense. He's EXACTLY what this team needs. The only players that fit this team's needs more in this league are named Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Zetterberg and Sedin. Don't think any of them are going to be available any time soon, so I guess we'll have to "settle" for Richards.

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Id love Richards, but if he comes here on superstars terms -- it could be another classic NY fail. Id love to get him for liek 5.5-6m per. But 8.5m per? Nah, not after we have seen lately in NY.
Well, this is completely irrelevant, since there is absolutely no chance in hell that anyone is going go give him 8.5 million.

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02-04-2011, 10:56 PM
  #243
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By the way, Kovalev has been mouch tougher than some of the thugs you love. The problem is that you have probably never understood what toughness on the ice even means.
I don't think it will ever happen, but he is what we need. We are missing player like Kovalev. Even the old one.

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02-06-2011, 02:42 AM
  #244
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On the Tomas Kaberle front, status quo as of Saturday. There has not been a list of teams handed to Toronto from the Kaberle camp (he's got a no-trade clause). My sense is that Toronto is just going to have to go to him and agent Rick Curran closer to the trade deadline with the best offer they've got and run it by him.

Again, I think Northeast Divisional rivals Boston and Montreal both have interest in Kaberle, as do the New York Rangers, but as one NHL executive told ESPN.com on Saturday, "Any team looking for a top D-man is interested in Kaberle."
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Rangers interested in defensemen
The Rangers' power play has consistently struggled (23rd), so a veteran point man such as Kaberle, Bryan McCabe or Sheldon Souray would likely interest the Blueshirts. Each would also provide a veteran presence on a really young Rangers blue line.

McCabe, UFA on July 1, is still injured. He began off-ice workouts last week, and it's still not clear when he'll begin to skate. Florida Panthers GM Dale Tallon, by the way, had preliminary contract discussions with McCabe agent Ian Pulver at the Top Prospects Game last month. The price has to be right for the Panthers. McCabe told ESPN.com at the start of the season that he loves it in South Florida and doesn't want to leave
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02-06-2011, 05:49 AM
  #245
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Zipay threw some cold water on McCabe a few days ago in one of his chats.

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OriginalTony :
Hey Steve, Happy Friday. The power play is horrific. Does Sather think the team can compete this year and as a result make a move to try and improve the PP via trade? Even with a move for McCabe who should be ready soon? (extra 2nd rounder?). Great coverage as always, thanks.
Friday February 4, 2011 1:03

Hey Tony. Prospal should help the PP but yeah, we've all agreed since October that the point needs a bomber. Some people in organization not sold on McCabe, I hear.
Friday February 4, 2011 1:05
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...6?showAll=true

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02-06-2011, 05:59 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Janerixon View Post
Brian Leetch didn't want to be traded from the Rangers, can I really fault a guy for wanting to stay with the team he has been with his entire career? Is Kaberle the answer to all our prayers, No. Can he help our PP, yes. Would I mind seeing him here, all depends on the cost. If Burke wants the house than no thanks obviously, but as I said before, when Sather had his firesale a few years back (nedved, Barnaby, simon, kovalev, leetch) we traded players for prospects that never panned out, maybe Sather has a prospect or two that the leafs may take that Sather has the feeling will never reach the NHL or their potential. I am curious who and what he moves for a PP quarterback.
Leetch won a Cup with the Rangers. Conn Smythe. Norris Trophies. His family lives in Connecticut. His wife's family lives in Queens. At the time,he had small children. Kaberle is a single guy from the Czech Republic. Kaberle hasn't achieved any success. Toronto hasn't made the playoffs since 2004.

Burke is going to want the house. If the Rangers could acquire Kaberle for one of the #2's and a decent prospect,no problem. They won't be able to re-sign him but they know that. Burke will want more than that. Boston,Montreal and some other teams may be more "win now" teams than the Rangers. Kaberle wants to remain in the east. He'll waive for a team in the east.

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02-06-2011, 09:31 AM
  #247
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The Rangers pwp is atrocious. Michelletti yaks about the Rangers needing to move it back to the point because of all the open space--but if our point men can't handle the puck quickly and fluidly it's not much of an option. That's why we're forcing so many plays down low and why we're not able to spread defenses out. They clog the middle and we're screwed. We don't get shots through and our plays are broken up.

I'm not sure Kaberle is a great answer but he's better by far than anything we have now--what Burke wants for him probably makes it a non-starter. Rangers remind me of those Buffalo teams that Hasek played for. In the playoffs they had to depend on their goalie--get him a goal or two--and try to string out the series. All low scoring games. Rangers d is not the kind of d for that kind of situation. Too inexperienced.

Best long run analysis may be that the Rangers take it on the chin this year but hold on to all their young. Get rid of Drury and try to get either a) 1st line quality center b) pwp qb vet d-man over the summer--don't think they can afford both.

I have 0 interest in McCabe, Souray, Jovanovski.

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02-06-2011, 09:35 AM
  #248
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Well eco's bones, if they get the right top line quality center, he'll moonlight as the PP QB, too.

Kaberle just makes more sense for a team like Boston. They are more in "win now" mode and I think they'd be willing to give up more than the Rangers, especially since they're definitely without a big PP catalyst in Savard. Their blueline lacks offensive mojo outside of Chara, too.

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02-06-2011, 03:31 PM
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eco's bones
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well eco's bones, if they get the right top line quality center, he'll moonlight as the PP QB, too.

Kaberle just makes more sense for a team like Boston. They are more in "win now" mode and I think they'd be willing to give up more than the Rangers, especially since they're definitely without a big PP catalyst in Savard. Their blueline lacks offensive mojo outside of Chara, too.
The problem is--I have a hard time believing Brad Richards is going to become a Ranger--and for that to happen Chris Drury will surely have to go. The money that Richards is probably going to get is likely a bit beyond what he's worth especially projected down the line into the future.

You're right though I think--I think it's not going to be the Rangers year. They've made a nice step forward though--the younger guys are taking over the team.

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02-06-2011, 06:03 PM
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Leetch won a Cup with the Rangers. Conn Smythe. Norris Trophies. His family lives in Connecticut. His wife's family lives in Queens. At the time,he had small children. Kaberle is a single guy from the Czech Republic. Kaberle hasn't achieved any success. Toronto hasn't made the playoffs since 2004.

Burke is going to want the house. If the Rangers could acquire Kaberle for one of the #2's and a decent prospect,no problem. They won't be able to re-sign him but they know that. Burke will want more than that. Boston,Montreal and some other teams may be more "win now" teams than the Rangers. Kaberle wants to remain in the east. He'll waive for a team in the east.
I think you may be off about trading with Montreal as they already acquired Wisniewski and I can't imagine that Burke is dying to trade with the Bruins again anytime soon. He is friends with Sather so if anyone can pull one over Burkie it would be Slats. I agree the cost will probably be too high for us to get him, but I am sure you would agree he could clearly help.

I cannot fault the guy for being loyal and maybe hoping he can be part of turning the Leafs franchise around. He has made is list of teams he would accept a trade to and he may finally be traded at the deadline this year, but I think if he isn't it has more to do with Burke expecting way more than anyone wants to pay for a rental.

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