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Messier overrated?

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Old
02-04-2011, 12:21 AM
  #226
RabbinsDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
not a chance is the Moose over rated. simply, one of the most complete hockey players ever. right up there with Howe. He had every hockey prowess you can hope for in a player. the template for the genetically perfect player.

I'll tell you who is over rated: Lafleur and Yzerman. both great but rated higher than they others who were better (Clarke, Trottier, Jagr) because they were/are very popular and likeable.
I find that insulting to Howe.
Howe dominated his era like Lemieux and remained at the top longer than Bourque.
Howe finished in the top 5 in scoring for 20 straight years while Messier did it 4 times.
Howe has 6 Art Rosses while Messier has 0.
Howe led the league in goals 5 times while Messier never finished in the Top 7.
Howe beat the crap out of the league's most feared enforcer - no such story concerning Messier.

If you want to try and compare Messier to Trottier, fine, but it is an insult to compare him to Howe - and I think Trottier was still better than Messier.

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02-04-2011, 12:24 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Brodeur was both a big part and a beneficiary of the system in my opinion.
Yes absolutely! And it's something you find in common among all successful teams - their key players definitely benefit from the system, but the system benefits from the key players and their unique talents.

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02-04-2011, 09:15 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes absolutely! And it's something you find in common among all successful teams - their key players definitely benefit from the system, but the system benefits from the key players and their unique talents.
The best teams build their system around their best parts so it totally makes sense.

But don't forget the party line.. teams don't affect performance.

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02-04-2011, 11:00 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
The best teams build their system around their best parts so it totally makes sense.

But don't forget the party line.. teams don't affect performance.
Offensive stats, bro. There is no evidence that teams affect offensive stats.

But go ahead and keep sniping at me every chance you get. I'll just keep doing what I do, which is ask for real evidence.

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02-04-2011, 11:11 AM
  #230
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Exactly.

Messier is just purely overrated and it's not even funny.

He's a top 25 forward, top 30 player but he does not belong anywhere near the top 15 best players.

Better leaders than Messier: Yzerman, Beliveau, Sakic, Howe, Orr, Clarke

Better power forwards: Lindros, Neely, Howe, Ted Lindsay, Conacher, Geoffron, Richard

Better offensive players: tons, to start Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard, Esposito, Orr, Bossy, Mikkita, Sakic

Better Centers: Gretzky, Lemieux, Esposito, Sakic, Yzerman, Mikkita, Clarke...

Better two-way players: (Messier is not really a two-way player): Mikkita, Trottier, Clarke, Federov, Carbonneau, Gainey, Lemaire, Lehtinen.

Stronger players (forwards): Lindros, Neely, Jagr, Beliveau, Howe, Bertuzzi

Better cheap shot artist: Not many are better than Messier.

For all the things that people say makes him great, Messier is not even top 5 for any of them.

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02-04-2011, 12:25 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Offensive stats, bro. There is no evidence that teams affect offensive stats.

But go ahead and keep sniping at me every chance you get. I'll just keep doing what I do, which is ask for real evidence.
I usually agree with most of what you say... but really?

You don't think any elite player in whatever hypothetical season would've scored more if they put on an equal offensive performance, but with better linemates and/or offensive system to cash in on the chances or help set up more chances?

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02-04-2011, 01:08 PM
  #232
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I suspect this was the real purpose of the thread all along

Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Jagr would have been dominant in any era. He might not have won any Art Ross trophies in the 1980's with Gretzky and Lemieux being there but in any other era Jagr would have been able to be just as dominant.

To me Messier is overrated and none of his intangibles and so-called leadership skills can make up for what he lacks offensively when it comes to Messier vs. Jagr.
Although your opinion differs on this page...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Exactly.

Messier is just purely overrated and it's not even funny.

He's a top 25 forward, top 30 player but he does not belong anywhere near the top 15 best players.
...compared to page one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
That is overrated then. He's top 20 but not top 12-15 range.

I would put him between 16-20.
Yeeeesh! Seems like Messier's stock dropped fairly quickly.

In all seriousness, I am intrigued as to why you think Mess wasn't a two-way player.

As for teams not having an effect on offensive stats, Mike Krushelnyski, Bernie Nicholls, Jari Kurri, Tomas Sandstrom, Paul Coffey and Blair MacDonald would probably agree. So would Rob Brown and Jagr from 95-96.

In all fairness I guess that since these are the products of playing with hockey outliers, these seasons would be treated as statistical outliers.

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02-04-2011, 01:28 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I suspect this was the real purpose of the thread all along



Although your opinion differs on this page...


...compared to page one.


Yeeeesh! Seems like Messier's stock dropped fairly quickly.

In all seriousness, I am intrigued as to why you think Mess wasn't a two-way player.

As for teams not having an effect on offensive stats, Mike Krushelnyski, Bernie Nicholls, Jari Kurri, Tomas Sandstrom, Paul Coffey and Blair MacDonald would probably agree. So would Rob Brown and Jagr from 95-96.

In all fairness I guess that since these are the products of playing with hockey outliers, these seasons would be treated as statistical outliers.
It has nothing to do with Jagr per say but more the fact that I was a bit ticked off at some thread started in the hockey forum section where they had Lemieux + Jagr vs Gretzky vs Messier and some of the posts made me realize just how overrated Messier really is.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Messier as no place in the top 20 so I'm going to say he's in the 21 slot for me.

Messier was never a two-way player. He has never finished top 5 in any of the Selke votings.

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02-04-2011, 01:46 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
It has nothing to do with Jagr per say but more the fact that I was a bit ticked off at some thread started in the hockey forum section where they had Lemieux + Jagr vs Gretzky vs Messier and some of the posts made me realize just how overrated Messier really is.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Messier as no place in the top 20 so I'm going to say he's in the 21 slot for me.

Messier was never a two-way player. He has never finished top 5 in any of the Selke votings.
So basically because you're butt hurt from another thread, Messier suddenly isn't like in the top 20?

All righty then.

If being 2nd all-time in points and winner of six Stanley Cups doesn't get you into the top 10, lol ... what does?

7 Cups? 8? 200 more points? 300? 400?

Game 7, winner takes all, there are not many players I would pick over this guy.

How many players in the last 30 years have won six Cups in their career period? And been a major contributor in all Cup wins? *crickets*. Yeah. Thought so.


Last edited by Soundwave: 02-04-2011 at 01:51 PM.
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02-04-2011, 02:11 PM
  #235
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Messier was not a two-way player? LOL.

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02-04-2011, 02:33 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
So basically because you're butt hurt from another thread, Messier suddenly isn't like in the top 20?

All righty then.

If being 2nd all-time in points and winner of six Stanley Cups doesn't get you into the top 10, lol ... what does?

7 Cups? 8? 200 more points? 300? 400?

Game 7, winner takes all, there are not many players I would pick over this guy.

How many players in the last 30 years have won six Cups in their career period? And been a major contributor in all Cup wins? *crickets*. Yeah. Thought so.
So suddenly he's top 10?

No one would ever rank Messier in the top 10 and you're the first person I have seen that thinks Messier belongs in the top 10.

Being 2nd all-time in scoring is more of a contextual thing and having played so many seasons rather than him being an elite offensive player.

He was probably the least gifted offensive player of the players in the top 10 in scoring.

As for the Stanley Cup, it's a team accomplishment, he was put in the ideal situation and yes he succeeded but how many players played for a dynasty and then another team who were heavy favorites to win the Cup.

If I recall with the 6 Cups Messier only has 1 Conn Smythe. Pretty bad percentage if you ask me.

Messier played for 25 years, I can guarantee you that had Lemieux, Jagr, Yzerman, Sakic played as long as Messier did that they would be ahead of him in scoring.

In fact of the forwards in the top 10 in scoring Messier has the lowest PPG (point per game average).

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02-04-2011, 02:50 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Exactly.

Messier is just purely overrated and it's not even funny.

He's a top 25 forward, top 30 player but he does not belong anywhere near the top 15 best players.

Better leaders than Messier: Yzerman, Beliveau, Sakic, Howe, Orr, Clarke

Better power forwards: Lindros, Neely, Howe, Ted Lindsay, Conacher, Geoffron, Richard

Better offensive players: tons, to start Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard, Esposito, Orr, Bossy, Mikkita, Sakic

Better Centers: Gretzky, Lemieux, Esposito, Sakic, Yzerman, Mikkita, Clarke...

Better two-way players: (Messier is not really a two-way player): Mikkita, Trottier, Clarke, Federov, Carbonneau, Gainey, Lemaire, Lehtinen.

Stronger players (forwards): Lindros, Neely, Jagr, Beliveau, Howe, Bertuzzi

Better cheap shot artist: Not many are better than Messier.

For all the things that people say makes him great, Messier is not even top 5 for any of them.
You know, this may be the most sensible post I've ever seen you make. Not because the points you are making can't be debated in many cases, but it's not really about a certain player. I applaud you and look forward to more of this.

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02-04-2011, 02:55 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
It has nothing to do with Jagr per say but more the fact that I was a bit ticked off at some thread started in the hockey forum section where they had Lemieux + Jagr vs Gretzky vs Messier and some of the posts made me realize just how overrated Messier really is.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Messier as no place in the top 20 so I'm going to say he's in the 21 slot for me.

Messier was never a two-way player. He has never finished top 5 in any of the Selke votings.
Never realized the Selke was for best two way player.

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02-04-2011, 03:48 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
I usually agree with most of what you say... but really?

You don't think any elite player in whatever hypothetical season would've scored more if they put on an equal offensive performance, but with better linemates and/or offensive system to cash in on the chances or help set up more chances?
No, he doesn't.

Or wait.. I think he believes that linemates (who are obviously part of the team) can make a difference.. but the team (of which linemates are part) doesn't.

I dunno, I give up trying to figure out how anyone could deny it.

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02-04-2011, 04:01 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Never realized the Selke was for best two way player.
It is, it's given to the best forward who excels at the defensive end while still being a good offensive player.

That is why Federov has two Selkes and Datsyuk has 3.

Messier has none.

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02-04-2011, 05:02 PM
  #241
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I don't understand how people say Messier didn't deserve his Hart Trophies, but at the same time use Selke voting as proof that he wasn't great defensively.

The same people who vote on the Hart, vote on the Selke.

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02-04-2011, 05:15 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
I usually agree with most of what you say... but really?

You don't think any elite player in whatever hypothetical season would've scored more if they put on an equal offensive performance, but with better linemates and/or offensive system to cash in on the chances or help set up more chances?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
No, he doesn't.

Or wait.. I think he believes that linemates (who are obviously part of the team) can make a difference.. but the team (of which linemates are part) doesn't.

I dunno, I give up trying to figure out how anyone could deny it.
Congratulations on shattering the record for snipes at the same hfboards member in one day!

I don't know why it's hard to see. A player's linemates affect how much he can produce - obviously. (though in the cases of some very elite players, the case that they will score the same no matter what is pretty strong too) - Brave Canadian's case, as I understand it, is that just being on that team will boost a player's offensive statistics. I've asked for proof but have yet to see it. I hope this clarifies things a bit, IV.

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02-04-2011, 05:19 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
It is, it's given to the best forward who excels at the defensive end while still being a good offensive player.

That is why Federov has two Selkes and Datsyuk has 3.

Messier has none.
Yeah, I don't understand how Messier got so many hart votes in 1996 when Fedorov scored 8 more points and was superior defensively.

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02-04-2011, 05:22 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Exactly.

Messier is just purely overrated and it's not even funny.

He's a top 25 forward, top 30 player but he does not belong anywhere near the top 15 best players.

Better leaders than Messier: Yzerman, Beliveau, Sakic, Howe, Orr, Clarke

Better power forwards: Lindros, Neely, Howe, Ted Lindsay, Conacher, Geoffron, Richard

Better offensive players: tons, to start Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard, Esposito, Orr, Bossy, Mikkita, Sakic

Better Centers: Gretzky, Lemieux, Esposito, Sakic, Yzerman, Mikkita, Clarke...

Better two-way players: (Messier is not really a two-way player): Mikkita, Trottier, Clarke, Federov, Carbonneau, Gainey, Lemaire, Lehtinen.

Stronger players (forwards): Lindros, Neely, Jagr, Beliveau, Howe, Bertuzzi

Better cheap shot artist: Not many are better than Messier.

For all the things that people say makes him great, Messier is not even top 5 for any of them.
This thread is getting more and more ridiculous. You're just stating so-and-so is better than Messier as if it's a fact. Try to be a little more convincing in your arguments.

For example: What exactly makes Joe Sakic a better "leader" than Messier? What accomplishments as a "leader" did he achieve that Messier didn't? What leadership qualities did he have that Messier didn't? Have any players ever stated that Sakic was the better leader?

How exactly is Eric Lindros a better "power forward" than Messier?

And my favourite: please explain how Carbonneau and Gainey were better two-way players than Messier. Take a look at how his offensive production dwarfs theirs, and then justify how their defensive edge more than makes that up to make them better two-way.


Last edited by reckoning: 02-04-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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02-04-2011, 05:23 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
It is, it's given to the best forward who excels at the defensive end while still being a good offensive player.

That is why Federov has two Selkes and Datsyuk has 3.

Messier has none.
Don't twist facts to meet your needs:


The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=24962

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02-04-2011, 05:31 PM
  #246
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Messier over rated? I guess it depends on who you talk to. A lot of people in this thread seem to have him at about 20 give or take a few spots. Thats pretty much how I see it too but to see THN top 100 put him at 12 and then have Mikita at 17 and Trottier at 30. Yeah thats over rating him IMO.

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02-04-2011, 05:39 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Messier over rated? I guess it depends on who you talk to. A lot of people in this thread seem to have him at about 20 give or take a few spots. Thats pretty much how I see it too but to see THN top 100 put him at 12 and then have Mikita at 17 and Trottier at 30. Yeah thats over rating him IMO.
Just my opinion, but I think it is a very thin line between the 11th and 40th best players in NHL history. It really boils down to personal preference and what you feel is important in a players career. I'd probably have Messier in the 20-25 category, but I don't think he's very far behind the 11th ranked guy and I don't think the 40th ranked guy is that far off of Messier.

Just going by centers I've seen, I have a hell of a time ranking Clarke, Trottier, Sakic, Yzerman and Messier.


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02-04-2011, 05:42 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Messier was not a two-way player? LOL.
IMO Messier's defensive skills are the most overrated aspect of his game. I really don't think he was that great on the defensive side of things until the early 90's. He certainly wasn't in the same league as other offensive forwards on the defensive side of things such as Clarke, Trots, Kurri and Fedorov.

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02-04-2011, 06:26 PM
  #249
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Yeah, I don't understand how Messier got so many hart votes in 1996 when Fedorov scored 8 more points and was superior defensively.
The argument was that Messier was more important to his team.

The Rangers improved from an average team in 1995 (22-23-3) to one of the league's best (41-27-14). They did this despite Mike Richter missing half the season due to a persistent groin injury (Glen Healey was the starting goalie for a while). Their big acquisition, Luc Robitaille, suffered through the worst season of his career (at the time). Messier had an excellent season and, fairly or not, got a lot of credit for helping the Rangers improve significantly.

Fedorov played on a stacked Detroit team which made it harder to argue that he was most valuable to his team.

Not saying that this is fair/right, but that's what the consensus was in 1996.

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02-04-2011, 06:26 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
IMO Messier's defensive skills are the most overrated aspect of his game. I really don't think he was that great on the defensive side of things until the early 90's. He certainly wasn't in the same league as other offensive forwards on the defensive side of things such as Clarke, Trots, Kurri and Fedorov.
They very well may be overrated. But he had a definite defensive aspect to his game and was often used to check the other team's best center. He was a two-way player.

I would call those four players "elite" defensively and no he wasn't as good as them.

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