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Parise to Van

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Old
02-04-2011, 08:04 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
That is why I expect the Devils to win a Cup before the Canucks. It's nothing against Vancouver, I just don't see them winning it all this year even though they are the team to beat at this point. It's about myself having confidence in the team the Devils are currently tweeking.
You don't see a team that is elite at even strength, on the PP and PK that is ridiculously strong and deep at centre, on defense and in goal winning a Stanley cup? A team that has a +28 goal differential lead on the next best team in the West... You either just don't want to see them win or don't follow the Western conference.

I wouldn't be surprised if New jersey gets back to respectability as early as next year but let's not kid ourselves here, the canucks are the better team right now and look much better positioned over the next few years as well.

There's no logic behind what you're saying - it's just a fan hoping and wishing...

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02-04-2011, 08:05 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
So Canuck fans should wish their team was more like the Hawks? A middling team in the West.

The Canucks are the class of the NHL right now. They're head and shoulders ahead of the field in the West.

New Jersey hasn't been the laughing stock of the league over the last few years either - I was talking about the present. Right now the Canucks are the cream of the crop and the Devils are a terrible hockey team.

You have nothing to say about the Devils being a safer bet to win a cup before Vancouver? You know, the whole premise of the conversation.
Regular season success means little to nothing. If you notice I didn't try to add my Team to the "class of the NHL". They've had great regular seasons over the last 2 decades. However their limited playoff success precludes them from that elite grouping.

If you wish to base success on the regular season alone then so be it. However the ultimate prize is won in the post season. Even though Chicago is a "middling team in the west" they are still the defending Stanley Cup champions. That puts them in a class that your Canucks are not in.

As to weather the Devils are more likely to win a cup before the Canucks I can't say for sure. I wasn't really involved in that discussion.

For my part I simply pointed out the folly of your argument. Which is simply that regular season success does not guarantee a championship.

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02-04-2011, 08:23 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by GDDevils View Post
Regular season success means little to nothing. If you notice I didn't try to add my Team to the "class of the NHL". They've had great regular seasons over the last 2 decades. However their limited playoff success precludes them from that elite grouping.

If you wish to base success on the regular season alone then so be it. However the ultimate prize is won in the post season. Even though Chicago is a "middling team in the west" they are still the defending Stanley Cup champions. That puts them in a class that your Canucks are not in.

As to weather the Devils are more likely to win a cup before the Canucks I can't say for sure. I wasn't really involved in that discussion.

For my part I simply pointed out the folly of your argument. Which is simply that regular season success does not guarantee a championship.
I didn't say the Canucks are the model franchise - I said their team is currently the class of the NHL. As in, every team is chasing them and virtually everyone is trying to get to their level. Which is all true.

Their franchise isn't the class of the NHL - their team right now is.

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02-04-2011, 08:30 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
You don't see a team that is elite at even strength, on the PP and PK that is ridiculously strong and deep at centre, on defense and in goal winning a Stanley cup? A team that has a +28 goal differential lead on the next best team in the West... You either just don't want to see them win or don't follow the Western conference.

I wouldn't be surprised if New jersey gets back to respectability as early as next year but let's not kid ourselves here, the canucks are the better team right now and look much better positioned over the next few years as well.

There's no logic behind what you're saying - it's just a fan hoping and wishing...
We should just hand Vancouver the Cup now then. Why bother playing the rest of the season?

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02-04-2011, 08:38 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
We should just hand Vancouver the Cup now then. Why bother playing the rest of the season?
Because the best team in the NHL is still a decided underdog to win the cup against the field every single year, no matter how good they are. It's competetive sport.

Tell me again why the Devils are a safer bet to win the cup than Vancouver?

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02-04-2011, 08:57 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Because the best team in the NHL is still a decided underdog to win the cup against the field every single year, no matter how good they are. It's competetive sport.

Tell me again why the Devils are a safer bet to win the cup than Vancouver?


He already did. Go back to the last page and actually read the posts.

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02-04-2011, 09:03 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Finally someone with logic. I wouldn't put Parise up there with Ovechkin or Crosby yet. IMO, there are certain tiers that players fall into (speaking just from a forward standpoint):

Tier 1: Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin
Tier 2: Parise, Kopitar, Datsyuk, Sedins, Gaborik, Zetterberg, Staal, Backstrom, Perry, Kovalchuk, Getzlaf, Kesler, etc.
Tier 3: Dubinsky, Carter, Sharp, Eriksson, Giroux etc.
Agreed, I would put parise at the top of the second list in terms of value due to his combination of youth and previous scoring

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02-04-2011, 09:22 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Because the best team in the NHL is still a decided underdog to win the cup against the field every single year, no matter how good they are. It's competetive sport.

Tell me again why the Devils are a safer bet to win the cup than Vancouver?
I never said it was a safer bet bro. I said it was a bet I'd be willing to make. If you want reasons as to why, go read my entire posts instead of skimming until you see a point you disagree with and then calling me simply wishful and hopeful.

Vancouver is the best team in the league right now. That is a fact indicated by the standings. That doesn't mean they will win the Cup. You can throw out every stat you want to. I've watched enough hockey to formulate my own educated opinion Vancouver will not be hoisting the Cup and just because you disagree with it because you're a Canucks fan means literally nothing to me. Being unable to acknowledge the abundance of talented teams in the league would make you closed minded. The Canucks are currently the team to beat, sure, but I believe a team will beat them.

If I had to list the teams I'd take ahead of them, I'd say Philly, Pitt and Detroit.

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02-04-2011, 09:59 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadadonk View Post
My mistake...but where does it say Gillis called in the OP??
I think that can be safely assumed. Lou isn't exactly shopping Parise around.

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Originally Posted by JAK View Post
my big question towards the Devils fans.

why would Parise want to sign in New Jersey when obviously the team is going to be rebuilding, with a giant anchor of kovacash
The Devils are not rebuilding. This year is an aberration, not the beginning of a trend. I expect them to contend next season, and you can bet your ass Lou does too.

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Originally Posted by roddy View Post
Serious? They're 8-5-1 in 2011, without their best player.

They have ample room to sign Parise, they have a top five pick in this year's draft and most of their really bad contracts are off the books at the end of next year.

Kovalchuk's contract is bad but he can't possibly continue to be this ineffective, and it's hard to believe they'll have a second consecutive year with this many injuries.

They'll be a better team next year and they should be back to a perennial playoff team the year after that.
Excellent analysis, I agree with every word.

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I will still say no,but could happen this is magical mike gillis we are talking about.
No, this could not happen. Lou is no chump, regardless of how "magical" Gillis is.

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02-04-2011, 10:05 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Because the best team in the NHL is still a decided underdog to win the cup against the field every single year, no matter how good they are. It's competetive sport.

Tell me again why the Devils are a safer bet to win the cup than Vancouver?
Because NJ is a winning franchise that is having a bad season, rather than a disappointing franchise that is having a good one.

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02-04-2011, 10:27 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by NJDevils66621 View Post
To NJD:
Cory Schneider + Ryan Kessler (fix our center ice problem big time!!!)


To Van:
Zach Parise

Fair trade i'll take it where do we sign???
Why do Jersey fans think that Parise has more value than Kesler does?

Even if you argue that Parise is a better player, the gap between them is not that big... Kesler is having a fantastic season, while Parise is having an injury-plagued season - that alone should tilt the value in favor in Kesler, but even if you think that Parise is still the more valuable player right now, explain to me how the gap there is even close to the massive gap that separates the value of their contracts?

Kesler is signed for 5 more seasons after this year, at a great cap hit of $5mill/yr. He will be in his prime throughout his contract.

Parise is a RFA after this season... whether he signs long-term instead of testing UFA status in a year is still not known... and even if he does sign long-term, it's a foregone conclusion that he will make more than the $5mill/yr Kesler is already locked up for, for several years.

As an asset, Kesler is worth more than Parise. If these players were dealt for each other, then it'd be the Devils that would have to add to the deal, not the Canucks... and it would NEVER happen anyways, because we already got Kesler locked up for long-term, while the only reason why Parise would be dealt is if he can't be signed long-term - which again impacts his overall asset value.

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02-04-2011, 11:29 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by hao chi View Post
I was thinking Kesler would be a good place to start negotiations, but apparently you want Parise and Kesler to play together.




Does Gillis make a habit of calling people then hanging up?
Cracks me up when I read this...lol

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02-05-2011, 12:01 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
That is why I expect the Devils to win a Cup before the Canucks. It's nothing against Vancouver, I just don't see them winning it all this year even though they are the team to beat at this point. It's about myself having confidence in the team the Devils are currently tweeking.
Believe what you want, Vancouver's got a solid club and unless the Debbies have a allstar goalie that they plan on pulling out of there back pocket, they're not winning a Cup any time soon. Brodeur is the greatest goalie that has ever played the game and he is the reason why they've won their Cups, so unless your team "tweeking" includes pulling out another Hall of Famer goalie and NOT making worse-than-Sather UFA signings, revamping your blueline in a negative way, and trading to acquire salary dumps to worsen your cap situation ...the "tweeking" isn't going to get closer to a Cup in a hurry.

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Not to be sexist, but I don't trust women's opinions when it comes to sports, especially when the women aren't credible and are writing on personal blogs. You may have cited your sister for all I know.
Oh and this an absolutely sexist comment. Women couldn't possibly have an understanding of sports because they don't have dicks right? Nah, it doesn't matter if they're a professional in the business, hell, they could be someone like Cammi Granato or coach of the USA Women's hockey national team but you "don't trust their opinion because their a woman....it might be his sister"...maybe his sister is the beat writer for the Dallas Stars, no that couldn't be possible...chicks can't do that...Goes to show how ignorant you are.

When you're sitting at home at night, beating your pud because no girl dates you, don't wonder why.

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Old
02-05-2011, 12:32 AM
  #114
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So...last time was it Parise or Zajac to Vancouver? Or am I thinking about the last 5 threads?

And a big NO to the OP.

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02-05-2011, 12:46 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Believe what you want, Vancouver's got a solid club and unless the Debbies have a allstar goalie that they plan on pulling out of there back pocket, they're not winning a Cup any time soon. Brodeur is the greatest goalie that has ever played the game and he is the reason why they've won their Cups, so unless your team "tweeking" includes pulling out another Hall of Famer goalie and NOT making worse-than-Sather UFA signings, revamping your blueline in a negative way, and trading to acquire salary dumps to worsen your cap situation ...the "tweeking" isn't going to get closer to a Cup in a hurry.
The last handful of goalies to win the Cup include Giguere, Fleury, and Niemi amongst others. You don't need an elite goalie to win Cups. You need a good team. Like I've told everyone else in the thread, don't worry about our team. I think you should worry about the Rags going another 40 years or whatever without winning a Cup. That'll keep you occupied for a while.

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Oh and this an absolutely sexist comment. Women couldn't possibly have an understanding of sports because they don't have dicks right? Nah, it doesn't matter if they're a professional in the business, hell, they could be someone like Cammi Granato or coach of the USA Women's hockey national team but you "don't trust their opinion because their a woman....it might be his sister"...maybe his sister is the beat writer for the Dallas Stars, no that couldn't be possible...chicks can't do that...Goes to show how ignorant you are.

When you're sitting at home at night, beating your pud because no girl dates you, don't wonder why.
I think you missed the dry humor but regardless, you need to lighten up a little bit and stop taking life so seriously. Did you happen to click on the link and read the garbage being spewed? It was a personal blog of a fangirl. My point was that his source was complete trash and is the equivalent of referencing his sister (assuming she's not a professional hockey analyst which would be highly unlikely.)

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02-05-2011, 01:16 AM
  #116
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This thread got real silly real quickly.

Parise to Van doesn't make sense. They don't need him and would be giving up too much to get him.

Devils want him long term and will start the signing process once the season is over. If he wants out, we trade him. That's pretty much the end of story.

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02-05-2011, 07:04 AM
  #117
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rofl at the kesler or edler > parise talk

Stopped even trying to follow the thread after that. Are people saying this actually serious?

I'd want to inject whatever it is you're on into my veins, but I'm assuming you're taking such high doses it'd kill me

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02-05-2011, 08:07 AM
  #118
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The Devils want to keep Parise, the Canucks don't need him and apparently wouldn't be willing to pay what it would take to get him, so this thread is pointless.

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02-05-2011, 10:16 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Gluske View Post
rofl at the kesler or edler > parise talk

Stopped even trying to follow the thread after that. Are people saying this actually serious?

I'd want to inject whatever it is you're on into my veins, but I'm assuming you're taking such high doses it'd kill me
okay, then please try and provide a logical argument why Parise is WORTH more than Kesler.

I've provided it above.... there is no doubt in my mind that Kesler has more asset value overall. It just seems silly to me that two comparable players, one with a GREAT contract, and the other with uncertainty in his contract, would have similar value, let alone the one with the worse contract situation having more value.

Kesler is signed up for the next 5yrs at $5mill/yr... tell me how exactly Parise, a similar player in every way, who hits RFA status next year, and then UFA the year after, while in an injury-prone season vs. (yet another) breakout season for the other, has more value?

Instead of laughing at the suggestion and telling us that we're high for thinking it, try and provide a logical argument... I'd love to hear it!

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02-05-2011, 10:30 AM
  #120
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okay, then please try and provide a logical argument why Parise is WORTH more than Kesler.

I've provided it above.... there is no doubt in my mind that Kesler has more asset value overall. It just seems silly to me that two comparable players, one with a GREAT contract, and the other with uncertainty in his contract, would have similar value, let alone the one with the worse contract situation having more value.

Kesler is signed up for the next 5yrs at $5mill/yr... tell me how exactly Parise, a similar player in every way, who hits RFA status next year, and then UFA the year after, while in an injury-prone season vs. (yet another) breakout season for the other, has more value?

Instead of laughing at the suggestion and telling us that we're high for thinking it, try and provide a logical argument... I'd love to hear it!
Parise has twice topped Kesler's career high in points, once by 7 and once by 19. He's put up 30+ goals in four straight years starting his sophomore season. He's also put up a higher +/- in each of the last 3(?) seasons. He also takes far less penalty minutes. He's also been doing it in a defensive minded system that restricts his abilities. I'd love to see what he could do in a offensive minded system, assuming NJ was the team he was doing it with.

Kesler's defense is above Parise's, but is there really that much of a difference between a top 3 Selke finish and a top 8 Selke finish? It's not like offense where the difference between 3rd and 8th could be 25 points.

Kesler definitely has the better contract, but if Parise were to sign long term for 6 mil per, there is no doubt that Parise would have the better contract. That's not the case though so I will surrender that point, as well as the one about the injury. That being said, I don't think Parise's knee injury is as serious as everyone is making it out to be. They caught the issue early and performed 'exploratory' arthroscopic surgery to remove bone/cartilage fragments or something along those lines. He likely could have been back in the upcoming weeks but there was no need to rush him given the season results. Besides, knee injuries aren't that serious in hockey due to the lack of stress put on them compared to other sports. For example, in football, an ACL tear is an 18 month injury. Johan Franzen suffered one last year and was back in four months, without a hitch. Parise's going to be fine.

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02-05-2011, 10:50 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
Parise has twice topped Kesler's career high in points, once by 7 and once by 19. He's put up 30+ goals in four straight years starting his sophomore season. He's also put up a higher +/- in each of the last 3(?) seasons. He also takes far less penalty minutes. He's also been doing it in a defensive minded system that restricts his abilities. I'd love to see what he could do in a offensive minded system, assuming NJ was the team he was doing it with.

Kesler's defense is above Parise's, but is there really that much of a difference between a top 3 Selke finish and a top 8 Selke finish? It's not like offense where the difference between 3rd and 8th could be 25 points.

Kesler definitely has the better contract, but if Parise were to sign long term for 6 mil per, there is no doubt that Parise would have the better contract. That's not the case though so I will surrender that point, as well as the one about the injury. That being said, I don't think Parise's knee injury is as serious as everyone is making it out to be. They caught the issue early and performed 'exploratory' arthroscopic surgery to remove bone/cartilage fragments or something along those lines. He likely could have been back in the upcoming weeks but there was no need to rush him given the season results. Besides, knee injuries aren't that serious in hockey due to the lack of stress put on them compared to other sports. For example, in football, an ACL tear is an 18 month injury. Johan Franzen suffered one last year and was back in four months, without a hitch. Parise's going to be fine.
I understand every point you have made.

Does that change the point that Kesler, right now, given his contract combined with the fantastic season he's having, vs. Parise given his contract, combined with his injury-plagued season, it's Kesler that has more asset value overall right now?

You can speculate all you want as to what Parise will sign for (or even if he will commit long-term instead of taking a 1yr deal and going to FA)... you can speculate all you want that Parise will bounce back from injury and still be better than Kesler on the ice, despite Kesler on pace for 40+ goals with Selke defense...

but until that speculation becomes fact, Kesler has more value.

suggesting that someone is on drugs to think that Kesler has more value is ridiculous. The fact is that in a salary capped league, a players' value is more often than not determined by the contract they have... and there's no denying that Kesler has a fantastic contract that he is again outplaying, while again there's no denying that Parise's contract situation hurts his value at this point.

Anyone suggesting otherwise doesn't understand the impact of contracts under this CBA.

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02-05-2011, 01:04 PM
  #122
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I understand every point you have made.

Does that change the point that Kesler, right now, given his contract combined with the fantastic season he's having, vs. Parise given his contract, combined with his injury-plagued season, it's Kesler that has more asset value overall right now?

You can speculate all you want as to what Parise will sign for (or even if he will commit long-term instead of taking a 1yr deal and going to FA)... you can speculate all you want that Parise will bounce back from injury and still be better than Kesler on the ice, despite Kesler on pace for 40+ goals with Selke defense...

but until that speculation becomes fact, Kesler has more value.

suggesting that someone is on drugs to think that Kesler has more value is ridiculous. The fact is that in a salary capped league, a players' value is more often than not determined by the contract they have... and there's no denying that Kesler has a fantastic contract that he is again outplaying, while again there's no denying that Parise's contract situation hurts his value at this point.

Anyone suggesting otherwise doesn't understand the impact of contracts under this CBA.
Because we have no way whether Ryan Kesler is a 2nd line center having a career year or simply a slow bloomer. Before this season Kesler's numbers were closer to Travis Zajac than Zach Parise.

Kesler has the perfect gig in Vancouver. As I mentioned before, Vancouver is traditionally a much better offensive team than New Jersey, The Devils haven't scored more regular season goals than the Nucks since 2001. The Sedins draw the other teams best defenseman, so Kesler is able to avoid being paired against the like of Lidstrom, Doughty, or Keith every night. And looking at GVT statistics, Kesler's defensive ability was worse than Parise's last season and has been dropping as his offensive output has been rising.

We know that Zach Parise is an elite two-way goal scorer and an established franchise player. Kesler needs to sustain this level of play for a much longer time before we can put him in the same category. Until them, his slightly better contact isn't enough to warrant him having more trade value.

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02-05-2011, 01:36 PM
  #123
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Kesler needs to sustain this level of play for a much longer time before we can put him in the same category. Until them, his slightly better contact isn't enough to warrant him having more trade value.
How much longer does Kesler have to sustain it for? Parise has had 2 seasons of over 80 points. This is going to be Kesler's 2nd season of over 70 points. I'm not saying Kesler is on Parise's level, but if you're going to call Parise proven, I would do so for Kesler as well.

Kesler has 5 more seasons left on his contract, Parise has one. Without knowing what Parise's true intentions are, that's a huge advantage for Kesler's value. Would you rather take the guy with one year left on his contract and thus far shown very little indication to re-sign or the player who's a tier below, but is locked in for another 5 seasons at a very good rate? You can call me a homer if you want, but I've gotta take Kesler.

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02-05-2011, 02:49 PM
  #124
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Just read through the thread and here are my thoughts on some of the subjects being bandied about.

1. Canucks' history as play-off chokers:

Now someone in this thread has said that the Canucks have had great seasons that ended up in playoff failure, but this is not quite correct. It might be true to some extent in the recent past, but through-out the team's history this is just been a BAD team. In fact there has NEVER been a Canucks team that has been as successful as this one has been so far (I don't think they've even finished 2nd in the conference in the last 10 years).

I'm sure everyone is familiar with their recent play-off failings, and to be honest they have a right to be cynical that this team has what it takes. While it is true that they have lost to only teams that were above them in terms of earning points in the regular season the last few years, it is not a stigma that they can shake without a long play-off run. So even though I'd give them a pass so far, no more excuses this year.

2. Ryan Kesler vs. Zach Parise:

As of this point in time, even given Kesler's massive improvement in offense, it is widely accepted that Parise is a better player, and this is an assessment I have no problem with. All the claims that Kesler's year so far may be a career year and unrepeatable is fair, but this can change as soon as next year. If Kesler keeps this up throughout this year and next, he will almost instantly be worth more than Parise because of his contract status and the position he plays. I see no reason for the Canucks to not run this gamble (I'd say 50-50 this occurs at this point), and therefore he will not be moved for Parise.

3. BaggerVance

At this point I'm convinced he's a troll account created to make other fans hate the Canucks even more. I always thought the Leafs were the most hated fans here, but apparently none can rile up the masses like a good homer thread from a Canucks fan.

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02-05-2011, 03:33 PM
  #125
sabresandcanucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
Because we have no way whether Ryan Kesler is a 2nd line center having a career year or simply a slow bloomer. Before this season Kesler's numbers were closer to Travis Zajac than Zach Parise.

Kesler has the perfect gig in Vancouver. As I mentioned before, Vancouver is traditionally a much better offensive team than New Jersey, The Devils haven't scored more regular season goals than the Nucks since 2001. The Sedins draw the other teams best defenseman, so Kesler is able to avoid being paired against the like of Lidstrom, Doughty, or Keith every night. And looking at GVT statistics, Kesler's defensive ability was worse than Parise's last season and has been dropping as his offensive output has been rising.

We know that Zach Parise is an elite two-way goal scorer and an established franchise player. Kesler needs to sustain this level of play for a much longer time before we can put him in the same category. Until them, his slightly better contact isn't enough to warrant him having more trade value.
Careful,

If Parise deserves more credit offensively for playing in a defensive system that holds him back then Kesler ought not be faulted for having lower defensive numbers in a more offensive system. Logical fairness.

To me this is like compairing Jeff Carter to Mike Richards. Kesler is not the offensive player Parise is, but he brings elements to the game...His hitting, screening ability in front of the net, face off prowess...ect. That allow him to enter the equation as a near equal asset.

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