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02-05-2011, 12:01 PM
  #26
PredsV82
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with the advent of the cap the ability to cover crappy drafting by overspending on UFAs is much diminished. In another 5 years, the GMs who draft well and those who dont will be very obvious. Teams that are in the hunt year in and year out, draft well.. teams that have a good year or two them fade back to the bottom of the standings(where you get a draft slot so high you cant help but get a good player) dont draft so well.

I think we will be one of the former.

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02-05-2011, 12:46 PM
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And all I'm saying is I wish he could hit better with the 1sts. I agree with you there wasn't much around.
I would love to see that too.

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02-05-2011, 12:49 PM
  #28
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It's way too easy to look back and say what should have been done. Recently? Erberle/Ennis instead of Pickard. Oshie/Statsny instead of Parent. But I'm not going to go down that road for long winded analysis.

My main gripe with Poile isn't his drafting, it's that I don't think he has what it takes to get us to the next level. This is a combination of everything-- playing it "safe" at the draft, unwillingness to move assets, and an overall sense of passivity. We can look back at his record and say "hey, that's pretty good" but in the meantime, teams are winning in playoffs because they've done better. So, for now, I keep it simple with with my analysis of Poile- "pretty good."

He's the perfect GM for building an expansion team, but he hasn't proven to be a good GM for building a playoff competitive team, at least so far in his 20+ year career.

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02-05-2011, 01:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
It's way too easy to look back and say what should have been done. Recently? Erberle/Ennis instead of Pickard. Oshie/Statsny instead of Parent. But I'm not going to go down that road for long winded analysis.

My main gripe with Poile isn't his drafting, it's that I don't think he has what it takes to get us to the next level. This is a combination of everything-- playing it "safe" at the draft, unwillingness to move assets, and an overall sense of passivity. We can look back at his record and say "hey, that's pretty good" but in the meantime, teams are winning in playoffs because they've done better. So, for now, I keep it simple with with my analysis of Poile- "pretty good."

He's the perfect GM for building an expansion team, but he hasn't proven to be a good GM for building a playoff competitive team, at least so far in his 20+ year career.
And while Eberle, Ennis, Stastny and Oshie all look like better picks, 5 other teams passed on them as well. That was the other point I'm trying to make. Looking at the ratings of these guys and drafting according to where they were at the time as opposed to what they currently have turned out to be. I would've loved to have Stastny but if we're going to open the criticism to entire drafts, we'd be here all day right?

I'd love to see a few more chances and use of assets but because of salary structure we are forced to hold on to our assets to replace guys that become free agents. In a lot of ways, we could have kept Hamhuis and not have Klein, Bouillon and O'Brien.

I think this conversation if moot if we have deep pockets to spend every year and I hope our team is heading that direction. If not, this topic will be a hot bed of debate for years until Poile and/or Trotz are replaced.

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02-05-2011, 01:17 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I love how Detroit gets "lucky" with Zberg and Datysuk in the late round, whereas Poile is a genius for picking Hornqvist and Rinne.



i think the only person who sees it like that is you.

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02-05-2011, 04:20 PM
  #31
triggrman
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I think he's had some good picks (Suter, Weber, Hornqvist) but he's had some stinkers (Finley, Upshall, Pickard) the rest fall in between.

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02-05-2011, 05:59 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
It's way too easy to look back and say what should have been done. Recently? Erberle/Ennis instead of Pickard. Oshie/Statsny instead of Parent. But I'm not going to go down that road for long winded analysis.

My main gripe with Poile isn't his drafting, it's that I don't think he has what it takes to get us to the next level. This is a combination of everything-- playing it "safe" at the draft, unwillingness to move assets, and an overall sense of passivity. We can look back at his record and say "hey, that's pretty good" but in the meantime, teams are winning in playoffs because they've done better. So, for now, I keep it simple with with my analysis of Poile- "pretty good."

He's the perfect GM for building an expansion team, but he hasn't proven to be a good GM for building a playoff competitive team, at least so far in his 20+ year career.
I think this post and btn's post sum up my feelings perfectly.

Poile / the front office constantly drafts hard working "Predator-way" guys. Third and fourth line defensive players. Yeah you have to have them, but those guys we can land in free agency. We cannot land scorers in free agency and then we cannot trade for them because Poile is afraid to lose assets.

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02-05-2011, 08:01 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
I think this post and btn's post sum up my feelings perfectly.

Poile / the front office constantly drafts hard working "Predator-way" guys. Third and fourth line defensive players. Yeah you have to have them, but those guys we can land in free agency. We cannot land scorers in free agency and then we cannot trade for them because Poile is afraid to lose assets.
In the first round or in general we're drafting the Predator type guys? Look at the forwards we've drafted over the years. Legwand, Hartnell, Upshall, Wilson, Radulov and Watson. Other than Watson and Upshall, the other were drafted to be high end talent. Legwand was converted into a very good two way center, Hartnell had mental breakdowns but could've been a dominant power forward if he payed attention to detail, Uphsall was a grinder but the best guy at that point in the draft, Radulov was a pure sniper, Wilson is a top 6 and Watson is another that looks to be a two way player and I think he may have been the one we shouldn't have taken.

Look back at my first post, tell me who we should've picked differently from the next 5 picks. That's all I'm asking. Guys are rated coming into the draft. Poile and other GM's have the lists as well. They all seem to pick in the same style for the most part. Sometimes GM's get lucky with a stretch pick but how many times do GM's go after a guy who's a stretch and they don't pan out? Probably way too often and that's why you see so many GM's that are fired whereas Poile has been doing his due diligence.

While it may seem boring to us, he has a fiduciary responsibility to the owners of the team, not the fans. If he makes poor choices and puts a poor team on the ice, no fans show up and he gets canned as well as the owners losing money. This is about winning but it's also a business. The owners state they will spend when the arena is full and I have no doubts about that but until then, this is the path we must take.

And for what it's worth, finding gems outside of the first round aren't that easy to find. We've been blessed with a GM that has given us guys like Weber, Klein, Rinne, Lindback, Erat, Hornqvist, Sulzer, Spaling and Tootoo that have played for us this season. That's 9 players on our roster from beyond the first round. Does any other team have that sort of success? Oops, forgot about O'Reilly which makes 10. I'd say that's a pretty good GM.

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02-05-2011, 09:49 PM
  #34
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No Glenn, there aren't examples where "Ovechkin" was the next player picked after us-- atleast in the limitations of your game where it has to be the next 5 picks. I would certainly take an Erberle over a Chet Pickard, though. But back to the real NHL here, there are plenty example of teams who found a way to build an offense without having multiple #1 and #2 overall picks.

We've already talked about Philly and Detroit. Dallas is another example of a team that's made a couple excellent trades the last few years, and have found true offensive players in the draft.

Both Eriksson and Neal were 2nd rd picks. Trade-wise, the picked up Riberio for very little. They picked up Richards for not a huge price.

Those are their top 4 forwards; any one would be the leading scorer on our team. Before we hear the budget whining, no one will convince me that Richard's 7m salary would be more of a burden than paying Dumont + Legwand 8.5m.

TB- outbid us for Martin St. Louis in 2000 for 800K (you'll have to take my word for it). That's the kind of move that would've moved Poile from "pretty good" to really good.

Hamhuis- we all watched the inevitable happen last offseason. Why didn't he move Hamhuis in the offseason of 2009 when he had major value? Especially when we could've turned around and signed someone like Zanon. He's very reluctant/scared to move assets, with the exception of Forsberg, which was mostly Leipold, and mostly a mistake.

Arkhipov-- at one time had a decent amount of trade value. Where was the foresight to say "Hey, I don't see this guy as a core player, let's trade him for someone we feel will be part of our core." Instead, we just let his value rot away.

I can't think of any drafted player that Poile has moved (sans Forsbeg trade) unless it was a "have-to" scenario like Hartnell.

The ability to facilitate trades is his biggest weakness. Until this year, you had to go back to 2003 to find a decent trade Poile pulled off (Sullivan).

I will give him credit that Kosistyen so far seems like he could make it a 2nd line winger-- but too early to say for sure what his career potential is.

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02-05-2011, 09:59 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
No Glenn, there aren't examples where "Ovechkin" was the next player picked after us-- atleast in the limitations of your game where it has to be the next 5 picks. I would certainly take an Erberle over a Chet Pickard, though. But back to the real NHL here, there are plenty example of teams who found a way to build an offense without having multiple #1 and #2 overall picks.

We've already talked about Philly and Detroit. Dallas is another example of a team that's made a couple excellent trades the last few years, and have found true offensive players in the draft.

Both Eriksson and Neal were 2nd rd picks. Trade-wise, the picked up Riberio for very little. They picked up Richards for not a huge price.

Those are their top 4 forwards; any one would be the leading scorer on our team. Before we hear the budget whining, no one will convince me that Richard's 7m salary would be more of a burden than paying Dumont + Legwand 8.5m.

TB- outbid us for Martin St. Louis in 2000 for 800K (you'll have to take my word for it). That's the kind of move that would've moved Poile from "pretty good" to really good.

Hamhuis- we all watched the inevitable happen last offseason. Why didn't he move Hamhuis in the offseason of 2009 when he had major value? Especially when we could've turned around and signed someone like Zanon. He's very reluctant/scared to move assets, with the exception of Forsberg, which was mostly Leipold, and mostly a mistake.

Arkhipov-- at one time had a decent amount of trade value. Where was the foresight to say "Hey, I don't see this guy as a core player, let's trade him for someone we feel will be part of our core." Instead, we just let his value rot away.

I can't think of any drafted player that Poile has moved (sans Forsbeg trade) unless it was a "have-to" scenario like Hartnell.

The ability to facilitate trades is his biggest weakness. Until this year, you had to go back to 2003 to find a decent trade Poile pulled off (Sullivan).

I will give him credit that Kosistyen so far seems like he could make it a 2nd line winger-- but too early to say for sure what his career potential is.
And yet 28 other GM's passed on Neal and Eriksson until the 2nd round? You blame Poile but other GM's did the same thing Poile did, pass on them.

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02-05-2011, 10:25 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
And yet 28 other GM's passed on Neal and Eriksson until the 2nd round? You blame Poile but other GM's did the same thing Poile did, pass on them.
And 28 other GMs passed on Datsyk and Zetterberg.

And 28 other GMs passed on Statsny.

And 28 GMs passed on Patrick Sharp.

And 28 GMs passed on Martin St. Louis.

And 28GMs passed on Brad Richards. etc

But those GMs did get those guys, and they deserve credit for it.


Last edited by dulzhok: 02-05-2011 at 10:31 PM.
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02-05-2011, 11:16 PM
  #37
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To be fair, I don't think the first round has been our failure, for forwards. The second round is the one where we've really swung some stinkers, throughout our history...and where there's been some sting when you look at the players that could have been had.

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02-06-2011, 02:29 AM
  #38
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i will say, and archive this....i wish we had taken emerson etem instead of watson...

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02-06-2011, 06:59 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
And 28 other GMs passed on Datsyk and Zetterberg.

And 28 other GMs passed on Statsny.

And 28 GMs passed on Patrick Sharp.

And 28 GMs passed on Martin St. Louis.

And 28GMs passed on Brad Richards. etc

But those GMs did get those guys, and they deserve credit for it.
And they do. So why doesn't Poile get credit for our goalie tandem, a Norris trophy candidate, 2 other defensemen that currently make up our second pairing, Erat, Spaling, Tootoo, O'Reilly and Hornqvist?

How about the Columbus GM who selected Filatov ahead of Wilson. You think he's kicking himself?

And not to be nit picky but everyone passed on St. Louis. He was signed by Calgary as a free agent. He was never drafted at all.

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02-06-2011, 09:22 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I think this conversation if moot if we have deep pockets to spend every year and I hope our team is heading that direction. If not, this topic will be a hot bed of debate for years until Poile and/or Trotz are replaced.
or go deep in the playoffs..that should hold them off as well

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02-06-2011, 09:26 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I think he's had some good picks (Suter, Weber, Hornqvist) but he's had some stinkers (Finley, Upshall, Pickard) the rest fall in between.
while i would agree with finley, think it is still a little early to write off pickard. and upshall produced for philly and phoenix. i think BFC said it, first round is meant to be an nhl player, not a star, just someone who makes the nhl. upshall did that. point is, dont think upshall was a "stinker", just not the superstar that people assume always come out of the first round.

all depends on expectations i guess

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02-06-2011, 09:50 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
i will say, and archive this....i wish we had taken emerson etem instead of watson...
If you are ever bored out of your mind, go back and look at my Twitter feed the night of the draft. I share your opinion and several others agreed with me.

I believe my tweet as we went on the clock was "ETEM, ETEM, ETEM, ETEM, ETEM!!! POILE SELECT EMERSON ETEM!!!"

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02-06-2011, 09:53 AM
  #43
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i will say, and archive this....i wish we had taken emerson etem instead of watson...
Duly noted.

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02-06-2011, 10:02 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I think he's had some good picks (Suter, Weber, Hornqvist) but he's had some stinkers (Finley, Upshall, Pickard) the rest fall in between.
Upshall is only a "stinker" based on expectations. He has been an NHL player for a number of years, which is more than many picks turn out to be.

And I think its WAY too early to write off Pickard. Montreal did that with a young goalie named Vokoun and we know how that turned out..

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02-06-2011, 10:08 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
I think this post and btn's post sum up my feelings perfectly.

Poile / the front office constantly drafts hard working "Predator-way" guys. Third and fourth line defensive players. Yeah you have to have them, but those guys we can land in free agency. We cannot land scorers in free agency and then we cannot trade for them because Poile is afraid to lose assets.
disagree with this incorrect over-generalization.

Poile is obviusly not "afraid to lose assets" or we would never have had Forsberg or even Witt. He apparently also was willing to part with a lot of assets to pursue kessel, and made a major offer for Kovalchuk last year.

The problem is perception. Poile doesnt make the splashy deal very often because most of the time some other GM is willing to dramatically over pay and Poile refuses to trash the future for a shot at the present. But it doesnt mean hes not making offers, he just isnt making stupid offers.

I will say again and I think its a very valid point... which franchise would you rather us be? The Preds or the Thrashers?

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02-06-2011, 10:11 AM
  #46
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Besides 2002 (Upshall) and 2006(No First Rounder), up till that 2006 draft Poile has gotten a player who is at least in the top 10 best players in the draft and he got 2 in 2003. That seems like a damn good success rate to me. Yes I want him to do better on first round picks but every team has busts.

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02-06-2011, 10:18 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
If you are ever bored out of your mind, go back and look at my Twitter feed the night of the draft. I share your opinion and several others agreed with me.

I believe my tweet as we went on the clock was "ETEM, ETEM, ETEM, ETEM, ETEM!!! POILE SELECT EMERSON ETEM!!!"
Yeah, I was with you on that boat and I thought with the new change in ownerships attitude and the depth of the farm system, Poile would have taken a chance.

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02-06-2011, 10:27 AM
  #48
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disagree with this incorrect over-generalization.

Poile is obviusly not "afraid to lose assets" or we would never have had Forsberg or even Witt. He apparently also was willing to part with a lot of assets to pursue kessel, and made a major offer for Kovalchuk last year.

The problem is perception. Poile doesnt make the splashy deal very often because most of the time some other GM is willing to dramatically over pay and Poile refuses to trash the future for a shot at the present. But it doesnt mean hes not making offers, he just isnt making stupid offers.

I will say again and I think its a very valid point... which franchise would you rather us be? The Preds or the Thrashers?
Forsberg was a special case with Leipold on the outs. It is a bit of a generalization about "giving up assets", you can take that anyway way you want. Perhaps he makes the wrong moves. Plenty of other players picked up for peanuts that could really help this team.

You are nitpicking about a small part of my post. My main point of the post was about the ability to draft goalscorers vs. third liners because of our limitations in free agency.

As for your last point, not sure why you chose Atlanta. Without looking at their trades / free agency, I don't think that they are alot riskier then us. Except they have a worse GM, coaching and ownership issues. Of course, they have the exact same number of Stanley cups and playoff series wins as us.

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02-06-2011, 10:27 AM
  #49
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Poile's draft history.

1998- 4 Forwards, 3 Defensemen and one dude they don't have a position listing for
1999- 7 F, 5 D, 2 Goalies and one dude with no position listing
2000- 6 F, 5 D, 1 G
2001- 5 F, 4 D
2002- 4 F, 2 D, 1 G
2003- 4 F, 6 D, 2 G
2004- 5 F, 4 D, 2 G
2005- 3 F, 4 D
2006- 4 F, 1 G
2007- 5 F, 2 D, 2 G
2008- 3 F, 2 D, 2 G
2009- 7 F, 3 D
2010- 4 F, 2 D

Totals- 61 F, 43 D, 12 G

15 Forwards have played for us or elsewhere in the NHL

12 Defensemen have done the same

2 Goalies have made it. I didn't count Deks for his one game as a backup

116 players drafted, 29 have played for us. That's exactly 25%. That is not including any of the prospects in our system that have been drafted that have yet to debut for us at this time. Guys like Blum, Josi, Ellis and Beck. Those 4 seem to be on the path. Guys like Latta, Budish, Watson, Pickard, Cehlin and some others have shots but don't seem to have the high ceiling. Then there's COR, Engren and some more that have shots as well.

Other than Finley, every other 1st rounder has made it. Blum, Ellis and Watson haven't yet but from all accounts should be in the NHL at some point. Watson I'm on the fence about. So even if Watson doesn't make it, that's 10 out of 13 guys from the first round making it. I put Pickard as not making it either. That's not a bad percentage at the end of the day.

We've had 5 second rounders make it.

I could go on about this but I'm tired of this to be quite honest. I have other things I need to be doing right now. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if someone wants to do the research on Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota and see how they've faired in the same time frame I'd be real interested to see the results.

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02-06-2011, 10:31 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Webersmashpuck View Post
Besides 2002 (Upshall) and 2006(No First Rounder), up till that 2006 draft Poile has gotten a player who is at least in the top 10 best players in the draft and he got 2 in 2003. That seems like a damn good success rate to me. Yes I want him to do better on first round picks but every team has busts.
From what I've seen in this thread, no one is saying that Poile is terrible at drafting. He and the scouting staff have made some great picks over the years. The criticism of Poile in this thread has been his inability to draft dynamic offense talent giving our monetary limitations. People will point to Radulov but that is the exception.

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